Abi Stafford's departure from NYCB

[KikiRVA]

1 minute ago, nanushka said:

According to a tweet by one of the authors, this is "the family struggle prickling the NYC dance world."

Total trash.

[cobweb]

I was wondering about this from the article: 

"She asked for three years of severance pay, a release from her contract so she could dance elsewhere, and a solo curtain call at her final performance."

It's not clear whether she got what she asked for here. (Has she in fact danced elsewhere?) Later in the article it said she was now demanding $200K "in addition to the typical exit pay she had already received." It says that NYCB was NOT giving her this $200K, but that leaves unclear whether she got the earlier request for three years of severance pay. Surely three years' pay is not "the typical exit pay." 

Also unclear is whether there is a current lawsuit. The article kind of reads like there is, but the only thing I can find is the demand from her lawyer for $200K for the distress caused by being removed from the opening-night cast. I guess that means an implicit threat of a lawsuit?

[On Pointe]

1 hour ago, bellawood said:

While that no doubt was painful and difficult for her, why is it being reported in the NYT? How is this news for anyone beyond AS's therapist, husband or best friend? 

It isn't clear whether or not Abi Stafford is suing NYCB,  but engaging an attorney to write a demand letter is the usual precursor.  Even NYCB doesn't get sued every day,  even though lately it may seem that way,  so that makes it news.  Now that she is or soon will be a lawyer,  Ms. Stafford Lillo seems to to be proving the saying that "when you're a hammer,  everything looks like a nail".

[vipa]

7 hours ago, cobweb said:

I was wondering about this from the article: 

"She asked for three years of severance pay, a release from her contract so she could dance elsewhere, and a solo curtain call at her final performance."

It's not clear whether she got what she asked for here. (Has she in fact danced elsewhere?) Later in the article it said she was now demanding $200K "in addition to the typical exit pay she had already received." It says that NYCB was NOT giving her this $200K, but that leaves unclear whether she got the earlier request for three years of severance pay. Surely three years' pay is not "the typical exit pay." 

Also unclear is whether there is a current lawsuit. The article kind of reads like there is, but the only thing I can find is the demand from her lawyer for $200K for the distress caused by being removed from the opening-night cast. I guess that means an implicit threat of a lawsuit?

Agree that much is left unsaid and is very confusing. Abi Stafford ended up getting way more than a solo curtain call at her last performance. What is meant by "could dance elsewhere"? Lot's of dancers get guest gigs, which they do with permission. Given how little she was dancing at NYCB, it seems she would have been given permission to guest elsewhere. Did she want to join another company? That seems unlikely. And given the fact that she was asking to be released from a contract, why does it make sense for her to get a large amount of severance pay?

It's a patched together piece with the purpose, I suppose, of creating a good vs bad narrative. 

[PeggyTulle]

The one big takeaway I have is separate from ASL. It's that Ratmansky delivered the recast in a way that, for most dancers, would be seen as body shaming. And if I was considering him as an AD, this would be one reason to potentially reconsider (assuming it's a company that wants to present a more contemporary body-positive image)... 

[Balletwannabe]

6 hours ago, PeggyTulle said:

The one big takeaway I have is separate from ASL. It's that Ratmansky delivered the recast in a way that, for most dancers, would be seen as body shaming. And if I was considering him as an AD, this would be one reason to potentially reconsider (assuming it's a company that wants to present a more contemporary body-positive image)... 

Still unclear to me why that comment would taken as body shaming.  I assumed it was about technique in partnering. 

[nanushka]

2 hours ago, Balletwannabe said:

Still unclear to me why that comment would taken as body shaming.  I assumed it was about technique in partnering. 

Yeah, that's not at all clear to me either. According to the article:

• Whelan first reported to Stafford Ratmansky's decision, "telling her that Mr. Ratmansky did not think she was 'strong enough' or ready for the first night."
• Stafford reached out to Whelan and Ratmansky, and Ratmansky was apologetic: "I am very sorry it hurt you. I feel bad about it. I am also sorry I didn't manage to talk to you. But please understand. There is a lot of partnering in the piece and it should look effortless. The men are struggling."
• Stafford, despite having been told that strength was the problem, interpreted that message as being "about how my body looked and not about how strong I was."
• Ratmansky's text says nothing at all about "how [Stafford's] body looked" (if it’s about weight at all, it’s about the impact of weight on the mechanics of partnering) and is 100% interpretable as being about strength and technique. The strength of the female dancer is a crucial component in making partnering look successfully effortless — probably more so than the relatively small amounts that dancers' weights tend to fluctuate, even when they're relatively out of shape (which is not to suggest that Stafford was).

On 5/3/2022 at 1:57 PM, Helene said:

Dancers do a lot with their core and their plie into a jump to help their partners.  A very light weightwise partner might help not at all, turning into dead weight, and expecting the partner to do all of the work. The timing and co-ordination is also critical.

There's just nothing in the article that suggests to me this was "body shaming." (I don't read it as having clearly been a comment about weight at all — but is every comment about weight by definition body shaming?) Stafford accuses NYCB of "changing the narrative" because she's "now saying it's body shaming." But the narrative did not change. She was told from the start that strength was the problem, and that's what they continue to assert.

One of the article's authors is Zachary Small, who seems to be an accomplished writer and whose metier is "the dynamics of power and privilege in the art world." I assume that, if there were stronger evidence that Ratmansky had body shamed Stafford, Small would have presented it in the article.

For me, the biggest takeaway is that Stafford is claiming that all this caused such intense emotional distress that her former employer should pay her $200,000, and she's using an article in the Times to push that claim.

Edited May 5, 2022 by nanushka

[volcanohunter]

Ratmansky didn't write "you were struggling," he wrote "the men were struggling." I also would have interpreted that as a reference to weight.

I didn't see her final performance, so my question would be: were modifications to the choreography limited only to lifts or were any other aspect of partnering or her solo choreography changed?

[nanushka]

15 minutes ago, volcanohunter said:

Ratmansky didn't write "you were struggling," he wrote "the men were struggling." I also would have interpreted that as a reference to weight.

I don't necessarily doubt that Stafford genuinely interpreted it that way. But if she didn't have the strength to make the lifts work optimally, the lifters would be struggling to make the lifts look effortless. So "the men are struggling" is still completely compatible with the overall message she had been given about strength.

Edited May 5, 2022 by nanushka

[Balletwannabe]

If it really were about weight, and the emotional distress from that, then NYCB sure owes Kathryn Morgan a heck of a lot of money. Ringer too, and I'm sure many others whose weight was pointed out over the course of their career there.  Except those women understood that the job required a certain weight.  Is it "shaming", to ask that a dancer be fit for their job?  Again- I don't even believe that comment was about weight, but just for arguments sake.  

[volcanohunter]

I'm wondering whether any other aspect of the choreography had to be altered to accommodate diminished strength. Was she on her leg for supported turns? Was her middle wobbly when partners took her by the waist? Were jumps modified?

Of course a tiny dancer can be dead weight, and bigger, taller women usually go out of their way to help their partners in double work. And it's also possible for a female dancer to have plenty of strength and a great push-off, and for male dancers still not to want to lift her because her weight strains their backs. 

(In general I am in favor of eliminating overhead lifts rather than demanding that female dancers be lighter, for the health of both sides. In that I advocate doing right by the dancers. Ballet is an art form, not a circus demanding acrobatic tricks.)

Edited May 7, 2022 by volcanohunter

[abatt]

8 hours ago, PeggyTulle said:

The one big takeaway I have is separate from ASL. It's that Ratmansky delivered the recast in a way that, for most dancers, would be seen as body shaming. And if I was considering him as an AD, this would be one reason to potentially reconsider (assuming it's a company that wants to present a more contemporary body-positive image)... 

Sara Mearns once wrote on her Instagram a few years ago that Ratmansky told her to neaten up her hair.  I guess she needed more spray.  The point here is that dancers, or at least women dancers, are regularly under scrutiny of every aspect of their appearance. Weight, hair, makeup.  Everything.

The reason Russell Janzen started dying his hair a few years ago was because he was starting to get some grays, and this is not an acceptable image for a danseur.  Every aspect of appearance is under scrutiny.

That's why I find it so astonishing that certain men are permitted to go out there even though they are clearly out of shape. 

Ratmansky went out of his way to modify his own choreography so ASL could dance it as her final performance.  Most choreographers would not permit any such modifications.  He also was very polite in telling her that he regretted making her feel bad.   Ratmansky seems like a decent guy, not a villain.

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by abatt

[nanran3]

43 minutes ago, abatt said:

That's why I find it so astonishing that certain men are permitted to go out there even though they are clearly out of shape.

This has often been a question of mine: Why do some male dancers continue to get roles when they are clearly "out of shape" or not slim or lithe looking?

This happens in corps, soloist and principal ranks. It seems like a real double standard.

That said, I agree that the article, at least in my reading, does not give a favorable impression of Ms. Lillo. 

[volcanohunter]

1 hour ago, abatt said:

Ratmansky went out of his way to modify his own choreography so ASL could dance it as her final performance.  Most choreographers would not permit any such modifications.

I happened to attend Jonathan Stafford's farewell performance. He danced the walking pas de deux with his sister in "Emeralds," and in "Diamonds" the entire Scherzo was eliminated to accommodate him, which I would call a huge modification (and a bummer, as I'd come to see the ballet, not him per se).

[BalanchineFan]

I am remembering this quote from the esteemed monument to mental health - (drumroll please)  People magazine’s Beauty issue (!!):

“I love what I have, and what I don’t have wasn’t meant for me.” 

That is what I wish for Abi Stafford Lillo. 

Every career follows its own trajectory. A dancer, an individual, only has certain things under their control. Abi Stafford had a lovely career to be proud of. She rose to principal at NYCB. She danced Balanchine masterworks including Concerto Barocco, Emeralds and Divertimento #15. She had roles in contemporary choreographers’ ballets, Russian Seasons and (to my mind) her breathtaking turn in Merce Cunningham’s Summerspace. There is plenty to laud, even if she didn’t dance as much or whichever roles she might have preferred. She married, became a mother and is pursuing law. 

I would also caution: when interviewed by a journalist regarding a recent work conflict, avoid mentioning grievances from when you were eight years old. 

Plenty of people have to adjust their expectations of what their career will be, particularly as it draws to a close. Take a deep  breath, look at how full your glass is and savor every drop. 

[vipa]

3 hours ago, nanran3 said:

This has often been a question of mine: Why do some male dancers continue to get roles when they are clearly "out of shape" or not slim or lithe looking?

This happens in corps, soloist and principal ranks. It seems like a real double standard.

That said, I agree that the article, at least in my reading, does not give a favorable impression of Ms. Lillo. 

Sometimes this occurs when a man is needed for his excellent partnering abilities. Particularly if he is tall and strong, and therefore a good match for the taller women. 

[pherank]

2 hours ago, vipa said:

Sometimes this occurs when a man is needed for his excellent partnering abilities. Particularly if he is tall and strong, and therefore a good match for the taller women. 

Agreed. A number of the "old guy" veterans can be particularly good at lifts, catches (think fish dive), and general partnering maneuvers while no longer having the "spring in their step". With young men it tends to be the opposite - they have all kinds of buoyancy for leaps, but can lack the strength and developed coordination to perform lifts safely and seemingly without effort. It can be really nerve-wracking watching a young danseur perform lifts.

Edited May 5, 2022 by pherank

[cobweb]

1 hour ago, pherank said:

It can be really nerve-wracking watching a young danseur perform lifts.

Totally agree with vipa and pherank. When it comes to the big ballerina roles and dancers like Mearns, Kowroski, or Reichlen are out there, I’m relieved to see Jared Angle, Tyler Angle, or Andrew Veyette walk on, no matter if they’re a little thick around the middle. 

[BalanchineFan]

1 hour ago, cobweb said:

Totally agree with vipa and pherank. When it comes to the big ballerina roles and dancers like Mearns, Kowroski, or Reichlen are out there, I’m relieved to see Jared Angle, Tyler Angle, or Andrew Veyette walk on, no matter if they’re a little thick around the middle. 

I remember seeing Adrian D-W with Mira Nadon in Monumentum/Movements. They do a series of lifts, something like entrechat six, entrechat six, arabesque. It was her debut. She skipped one of the entrechat sixes, jumped up into an arabesque lift (she totally committed to it) and he pulled her back with one arm WHILE HER HIPS WERE AT HIS HEAD HEIGHT! He's got a gorgeous body, but I was so impressed by what a strong, experienced partner can do. NYCB has a lot of tall ladies coming up, Isabelle LaFreniere and Nadon among them. I'm glad they've got experienced men to partner them.

Edited May 5, 2022 by BalanchineFan

[cobweb]

1 hour ago, BalanchineFan said:

I remember seeing Adrian D-W with Mira Nadon in Monumentum/Movements

Thank you for this remembrance BalanchineFan. After I wrote my comment I kept thinking I should have included ADW on the list of partners I’m relieved to see walk on. He’s still at the sweet spot of buoyant legs and great partnering. As a non dancer I probably would not notice a moment like this but I’m glad to hear it pointed out. 

[chicagoballetomane]

Yikes, this piece does not cast Abi in a good light. Seems like she is too selfish to share the spotlight. Couldn’t be happy that her siblings shared her love of ballet? Wasn’t thrilled her brother made principal at NYCB? Displeased her brother and SIL got engaged on her birthday? Sounds like a diva…

[Dancingdemon]

There are several unclear aspects of this article. That's the fault of the writer(s), not the subject matter. However, I must ask the question, "How many of you on this site have previously or are currently dancing professionally?" Not many, I would assume. So, I think you might not understand. The manner in which she was treated was totally unfair, full stop. She was a long-standing principal dancer with one of the highest-ranked companies on the planet. To be relegated to understudying various parts and also removed from the opening night of her final role is abhorrent. That her estranged brother is leading the organization is the final blow. How do you manage in such a situation? You barely manage, is how. 

[PeggyTulle]

@Dancingdemon👏👏👏

[BalanchineFan]

18 hours ago, Dancingdemon said:

There are several unclear aspects of this article. That's the fault of the writer(s), not the subject matter. However, I must ask the question, "How many of you on this site have previously or are currently dancing professionally?" Not many, I would assume. So, I think you might not understand. The manner in which she was treated was totally unfair, full stop. She was a long-standing principal dancer with one of the highest-ranked companies on the planet. To be relegated to understudying various parts and also removed from the opening night of her final role is abhorrent. That her estranged brother is leading the organization is the final blow. How do you manage in such a situation? You barely manage, is how. 

I am a dancer. I've had a 40 year career that I take pride in. I've performed in theaters on three continents (including the NY State Theater). I've taught dance and performance on four continents.

I have found that expecting others to give you something (even based on your past accomplishments) is a path to misery and suffering. Life is like surfing. You get knocked down nearly every run. You are the only one to decide if you'll get back up. It's no one's fault and blaming others is a waste of your own limited  time and energy. Is that how you want to spend your precious time ?

When Lin Manual Miranda won the Tony for writing Hamilton his acceptance speech was a sonnet that included this line:

That nothing here is promised, not one day

It's true. For instance, the dancers I worked with in Kyiv are currently backpacking towards the border with their kids in tow. Or dead. Anything can turn your life upside down at any time.

So, the idea that we are promised something, is just the set up for heartache and disappointment, misery and suffering. It's a difficult lesson, but most people are calmer and more content when they engage with it as a lesson, as something that is our individual responsibility to manage.

I sympathize with Abi Stafford, probably more than you understand. Retirement is definitely an emotional crisis. But it's not the only one. A full life includes crises.

Edited May 7, 2022 by BalanchineFan

[Kathleen O'Connell]

2 hours ago, BalanchineFan said:

I have found that expecting anything, expecting that people will give you anything (even based on your past accomplishments) is a path to misery and suffering.

This is true for every profession. I've watched smart, talented people spiral into very dark places when they got passed over for a promotion they believed they deserved or saw someone else get assigned to a plum project they wanted for their own.