Nutcracker 2023

[aurora]

4 hours ago, California said:

The Ratmansky version premiered at BAM in 2010. I assume they thought they had a good venue and were disappointed after a few years at the drop-off in ticket sales.

https://www.abt.org/ballet/the-nutcracker/

Before that, they had a version by McKenzie: https://www.abt.org/ballet/the-nutcracker-mckenzie/

and another by Baryshnikov: https://www.abt.org/ballet/the-nutcracker-baryshnikov/

And neither the McKenzie nor the Baryshnikov were done in NYC as far as I remember.

[ABT Fan]

4 hours ago, California said:

The Ratmansky version premiered at BAM in 2010. I assume they thought they had a good venue and were disappointed after a few years at the drop-off in ticket sales.

As much as I really wanted to see ABT’s Nutcracker, I couldn’t talk myself into the commute. I live far out in Queens and like a lot of New Yorkers I don’t own a car. The subway from my apt to BAM would be well over an hour one way, and with the frequency of weekend subway construction and delays, I’d have to expect at least 90 mins and possibly longer. I’m sure I’m not the only one who wasn’t going to schlep that far to Brooklyn no matter how much they love the company.

[California]

20 minutes ago, aurora said:

And neither the McKenzie nor the Baryshnikov were done in NYC as far as I remember.

The Baryshnikov version was performed at the Met in May 1977: https://www.nytimes.com/1977/05/20/archives/new-jersey-weekly-ballet-grownup-nutcracker.html

It was shown again with Gelsey Kirkland at the Met in September 1977: https://www.nytimes.com/1977/09/24/archives/gelsey-kirkland-is-a-joy-in-the-nutcracker.html

It was performed annually at the Kennedy Center (where it premiered in December 1976), for many years. I don't know if it was ever performed again in New York.

I also don't know if the McKenzie version was every performed in New York: 

https://www.abt.org/ballet/the-nutcracker-mckenzie/

[aurora]

3 minutes ago, California said:

The Baryshnikov version was performed at the Met in May 1977: https://www.nytimes.com/1977/05/20/archives/new-jersey-weekly-ballet-grownup-nutcracker.html

It was shown again with Gelsey Kirkland at the Met in September 1977: https://www.nytimes.com/1977/09/24/archives/gelsey-kirkland-is-a-joy-in-the-nutcracker.html

It was performed annually at the Kennedy Center (where it premiered in December 1976), for many years. I don't know if it was ever performed again in New York.

I also don't know if the McKenzie version was every performed in New York: 

https://www.abt.org/ballet/the-nutcracker-mckenzie/

That sounds right to me.

The only other major traditional Nutcracker besides NYCB's that I remember being around seasonally (before ABT brought the Ratmansky one in 2010), was the Joffrey's old version choreographed by Joffrey and Arpino starting (I think) in the late 80s and continuing into the 90s at City Center.

[nanushka]

29 minutes ago, ABT Fan said:

As much as I really wanted to see ABT’s Nutcracker, I couldn’t talk myself into the commute. I live far out in Queens and like a lot of New Yorkers I don’t own a car. The subway from my apt to BAM would be well over an hour one way, and with the frequency of weekend subway construction and delays, I’d have to expect at least 90 mins and possibly longer. I’m sure I’m not the only one who wasn’t going to schlep that far to Brooklyn no matter how much they love the company.

I'm not sure what that tells us; the same could be said of literally any location and the fans who live too far away from it to get there easily for a performance. A lot of people can't easily get to Brooklyn for a performance, but a lot of people can't easily get to any given location. 

The population of Manhattan is ~1.63 million. Queens is ~2.27 million. Brooklyn is ~2.58 million.

A lot of people live in Brooklyn, and a lot of others can pretty easily get there. ABT's problem with sustaining their Nutcracker in the NYC area can't really have been about the size or makeup of the proximate-to-BAM population.

Edited January 7 by nanushka

[Drew]

1 hour ago, aurora said:

And neither the McKenzie nor the Baryshnikov were done in NYC as far as I remember.

The Baryshnikov Nutcracker was danced in New York City, but not at Christmas--it was not competing with any other Nutcrackers.  It was part of the Met spring season when Baryshnikov was directing the company.

Edited January 8 by Drew

[matilda]

Ha, I live within walking distance of BAM and love when something I'm actually interested in seeing comes there (sadly it's rare). I can kind of see why ABT wouldn't have been a huge success there. For one thing, the stage is small and the sight lines are not great for dance. They don't even have an orchestra pit (or maybe they somehow manipulate the stage area to create one for some shows; I have no idea). NYCB relies significantly on tourists for Nutcracker attendance, and they tend to stay in Manhattan. People also generally associate BAM with more edgy, avant-garde, and modern programming, and that's what audiences mostly turn out for -- Mark Morris' "Hard Nut" sells very well, and it doesn't even use live music! The ENB Akram Kahn Giselle did pretty well there in 2022 -- I know people who saw it and had never seen a traditional Giselle production.

[BalanchineFan]

On 1/7/2024 at 7:23 PM, matilda said:

Ha, I live within walking distance of BAM and love when something I'm actually interested in seeing comes there (sadly it's rare). I can kind of see why ABT wouldn't have been a huge success there. For one thing, the stage is small and the sight lines are not great for dance. They don't even have an orchestra pit (or maybe they somehow manipulate the stage area to create one for some shows; I have no idea). 

The BAM Opera House (Howard Gilman Opera House) has an orchestra pit. I performed in an opera there (we had an orchestra in the pit) and I saw Mark Morris conduct an orchestra there. It is adjustable and sometimes extends either the stage or the audience. Could you be confusing it with the BAM - Harvey, a different, less traditional performance space down the block?

[matilda]

7 minutes ago, BalanchineFan said:

The BAM Opera House (Howard Gilman Opera House) has an orchestra pit. I performed in an opera there (we had an orchestra in the pit) and I saw Mark Morris conduct an orchestra there. It is adjustable and sometimes extends either the stage or the audience. Could you be confusing it with the BAM - Harvey, a different, less traditional performance space down the block?

Definitely the Opera House -- all of the dance shows I've been to there in the last seven or so years (Hard Nut, Pina Bausch, Batsheva, ENB Giselle) have used recorded music and it looked like there was no space for an orchestra pit because the front row of seating was practically up against the stage. But I can see how they could adjust the space to include one. 

[nanushka]

The venue rental info on BAM's website includes the following detail:

Quote

Adjustable orchestra pit, can be lowered for musicians or used to extend stage or audience seating area

[FauxPas]

The McKenzie Nutcracker I saw at the Metropolitan Opera House sometime in the aughts.  It was performed during the summer season and it is very hazy in my recollection.  I remember there were two ballerina roles (as in Balanchine) and that Julie Kent was the Sugarplum and Paloma Herrera was the other ballerina (not a Snow Queen but not sure).  It wasn't memorable I guess. 

One thing that helped the Ratmansky "Nutcracker" was that the Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis School had been founded.  So there were trained children available to the company.  In fact, I believe Clara/Marie/Masha in the first season in 2010 was a very young Catherine Hurlin who has grown up to become a home-trained principal ballerina and danced the grown up Clara in the Ratmansky version.  I must have seen her since she danced opening night.  There's an old program buried in storage somewhere.

I think City Center is a worthy option and Ailey or whatever could be shifted.  Also there is a new venue downtown, the Perelman Performing Arts Center near the World Trade Center.  They could do a week there.

[BalanchineFan]

On 1/11/2024 at 3:58 PM, FauxPas said:

I think City Center is a worthy option and Ailey or whatever could be shifted. 

Ailey has a tradition of playing multiple weeks at City Center in December. They open both balconies and regularly sell out. IMO, moving them would be bad for Ailey and bad for City Center, outweighing any other considerations. 

[volcanohunter]

Yes, there's no reason why Ailey should make any sort of changes or concessions.

On 1/11/2024 at 1:58 PM, FauxPas said:

Also there is a new venue downtown, the Perelman Performing Arts Center near the World Trade Center.  They could do a week there.

Judging by diagrams, the largest performance space there seats about 450 people and has no orchestra pit, so I have doubts about its suitability for a Nutcracker.

[ABT Fan]

1 hour ago, BalanchineFan said:

Ailey has a tradition of playing multiple weeks at City Center in December. They open both balconies and regularly sell out. IMO, moving them would be bad for Ailey and bad for City Center, outweighing any other considerations. 

Completely agree. I can’t imagine Ailey would agree, they’ve played at CC in December for many, many years.  And if they were “moved “ elsewhere because another company wanted that space I think there would be a massive public outcry (including from me). 

[abatt]

City Center would have no incentive to even attempt to move Ailey out of its decades-old December performance slot.  Ailey is the only company that remained loyal to City Center and never left for greener pastures.  In contrast, ABT bolted for the Koch for the fall season and never looked back once the Koch became available.  Ailey will always be the sole December tenant at City Center.

For Nutcracker, people want spectacle.  That's what the NYCB version offers that the ABT version can never offer at the same level.  Further, while ABT used to have a stable of great dancers, which may have served as motivation for balletomanes to venture out to BAM, they no longer have a strong roster.  

Edited January 14 by abatt

[MarzipanShepherdess]

On 1/11/2024 at 2:31 PM, matilda said:

Definitely the Opera House -- all of the dance shows I've been to there in the last seven or so years (Hard Nut, Pina Bausch, Batsheva, ENB Giselle) have used recorded music and it looked like there was no space for an orchestra pit because the front row of seating was practically up against the stage. But I can see how they could adjust the space to include one. 

I saw the Mariinsky perform at BAM in 2014 and 2015 and I recall they brought their orchestra as they did everywhere else I’ve seen them on tour. They did Swan Lake and Cinderella. 

[ABT Fan]

4 hours ago, abatt said:

City Center would have no incentive to even attempt to move Ailey out of its decades-old December performance slot.  Ailey is the only company that remained loyal to City Center and never left for greener pastures.  In contrast, ABT bolted for the Koch for the fall season and never looked back once the Koch became available.  Ailey will always be the sole December tenant at City Center.

Agree. And, ABT leaving CC was such a big mistake. Gorgeous theater and not a bad seat in the house, and so much more intimate (yet not tiny). Many ballets would simply look so much better there.

[Helene]

Back in the day, you couldn't see from any seat in City Center except for the front row of at least in the Mezzanine. Even before they fixed it, people who experienced NYCB at City Center before the move to Lincoln Center still said many NYCB ballets looked better there.

[Drew]

2 hours ago, ABT Fan said:

Agree. And, ABT leaving CC was such a big mistake. Gorgeous theater and not a bad seat in the house, and so much more intimate (yet not tiny). Many ballets would simply look so much better there.

I well remember the days when, as @Helene wrote, "you couldn't see from any seat in City Center" [my italics]--but even after that problem was addressed the sight-lines and comfort of the theater never seemed to me to compare with the State Theater (aka Koch).  (And, of course, if you are short , then there are always bad seats in the house unless there is more or less an arena style of seating which most opera/ballet venues don't favor--at least not in the U.S. and certainly not older theaters.) And I had been imagining the backstage area is better for a large dance company at the Koch....is that not so?

I do agree that portions of ABT's repertory would look better at City Center--though probably not their full length works except possibly the Marston Jane Eyre, which I haven't yet seen.

But until/unless ABT builds its own theater. I think it unlikely they are going to find an ideal solution to any of their problems let alone have a chance of success with their Nutcracker running up against NYCB's. Does Jeff Bezos like ballet? I fear not. So they will keep improvising...

Edited January 14 by Drew

[volcanohunter]

2 hours ago, Drew said:

And I had been imagining the backstage area is better for a large dance company at the Koch....is that not so?

Oh yes, the backstage area at City Center is almost nonexistent. The building wasn't designed to be a theater, after all.

[Kathleen O'Connell]

On 1/14/2024 at 5:59 PM, Drew said:

I well remember the days when, as @Helene wrote, "you couldn't see from any seat in City Center" [my italics]--but even after that problem was addressed the sight-lines and comfort of the theater never seemed to me to compare with the State Theater (aka Koch).

As much as I appreciate NYCC as a designated landmark and for its place in performing arts history, I grit my teeth every time I buy tickets for a performance there. The sight lines are suboptimal at best and, because the house is so shallow, the viewing angle is too steep from any seat not in the orchestra. Too many of the seats on the sides are effectively partial view (but aren't billed as such). If I were a billionaire, I'd build NYC the 1800 - 2000 seat performing arts theater that it deserves.

[BalanchineFan]

14 hours ago, Kathleen O'Connell said:

As much as I appreciate NYCC as a designated landmark and for its place in performing arts history, I grit my teeth every time I buy tickets for a performance there. The sight lines are suboptimal at best and, because the house is so shallow, the viewing angle is too steep from any seat not in the orchestra. Too many of the seats on the sides are effectively partial view (but aren't billed as such). If I were a billionaire, I'd build NYC the 1800 - 2000 seat performing arts theater that it deserves.

I'm all for new venues. Where would you put yours?

Some of what I like about both City Center and the State Theater (or anything Lincoln Center based) is that it's easy to get to as I can use the 59th St subway stop. Broadway shows aren't so far away, Hudson Yards isn't horrible, but Lincoln Center and City Center are so, so easy to get to. BAM is a pain in the patoot, but there are a lot of subways that service that area as well.

I love the sight lines at the State Theater, the placement of the Rings, the pricing (every price point is available to subscribers in the First Ring!!). I wish they hadn't put the center aisles in the orchestra, but after accompanying my 83 year old mother (and others who are mobility impaired) I can see the plusses too.

[Kathleen O'Connell]

10 minutes ago, BalanchineFan said:

I'm all for new venues. Where would you put yours?

I would ask the good folks at the Regional Plan Association where the optimal location for such a theater might be to best serve the tri-state audience and minimize any negative impact and / or generate a positive impact on the community surrounding it.

(From the RPA website: "RPA is an independent non-profit civic organization that develops and promotes ideas to improve the economic health, environmental resiliency, and quality of life of the New York metropolitan area. RPA conducts research on the environment, land use, and good governance, and advises cities, communities, and public agencies.")

[BalanchineFan]

SMART! I never knew there was such an agency. I wonder what they would recommend.