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Joy Womack has left the Bolshoialleges corruption


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#166 puppytreats

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 10:25 AM

Helene, I don't understand how her telling the truth renders her lacking in "credibility."  The need to threaten her lends credence, which is why I don't understand why the theater's lawyer did it publicly.  Her leaving and saying this is what happened to me is enough warning.  Her $100 a week (when they remembered to pay her) is not the incentive you make it out to be.

 

Several people discuss "inconsistency" in social media.  Chatting on facebook/twitter/boards (if it is her, which some people here deny) is not a statement under oath and penalties of perjury.  Who knows the context, whether she was joking, misinterpreted, putting something out there to see where it turned up, promoting something, saying something in shock or anger, ...?  

 

I don't read Russian and have a hard time with Google translate so I don't know what, if anything, was said in Izvestia (which Catherine and others say is one-sided, political anyway).  I don't know if it was an "interview", but I have not read any  Q&A, just some articles with some quotations (if they are to be believed).  



#167 puppytreats

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 10:37 AM

Did she not fit into the corps? Apparently.   That has nothing to do with internal investigations or bribes.  
Did she not deserve solo roles (by virtue of time, talent, or bribes)? Apparently. 
Is it her fault that bribes were given and consequences may follow? No.
Is it a "smear" to say bribes were given if they were? No
Will bribes stop if that is the way? No, but maybe one person will be a sacrificial lamb
Is it her fault that someone looked into bribes?  Doubtful.  I don't know how the "plea" and "cooperation" game works in Russia. 
I am thinking the anger is that she didn't give the bribe, or close her eyes and play ball, or just walk away and say it was all her fault.  For this reason, I still can't understand the threats made in the press.  They could have said she did not fit in the corps or soloist position or pay her dues yet.

#168 seniordancer

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 10:39 AM

I think that's different than being the person quoted in the media, because no publicity is considered bad, and that could be catnip to a company that would get immediate press attention by hiring her.

 

 

This is an extremely wise statement! Deep inside I am already waiting for the news that Womack has signed a multi-million-dollar contract with an American publishing house for the tell-all tale "Shattered Swan" or that CBS will give her the lead in a made-for-television movie where she will walk in the final scene into the Siberian ice desert. Does anyone know whether there is any credibility to the claim that the Kremlin Ballet is interested in her? It must have a reason why she is neither confirming, nor denying a possible contract with them.



#169 seniordancer

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 10:43 AM

Is it a "smear" to say bribes were given if they were? No
Will bribes stop if that is the way? No, but maybe one person will be a sacrificial lamb
Is it her fault that someone looked into bribes?  Doubtful.  I don't know how the "plea" and "cooperation" game works in Russia.
I am thinking the anger is that she didn't give the bribe, or close her eyes and walk away.  For this reason, I still can't understand the threats made in the press.
 

You cannot accuse someone of a crime unless you can PROVE that it was committed. And she cannot prove that bribes were given and accepted.

#170 puppytreats

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 10:45 AM


She made herself vulnerable by speaking to the press in the first place: to say that she needed the press' attention to protect herself is a circular argument.
 

I think her vulnerability derived way before she spoke to anyone.  Her vulnerability existed by virtue of her age, lack of money (a situation created by the theater to make her vulnerable), her lack of support, and the dangerous environment in which she found herself.  (I would say all of the dancers are vulnerable). In any event, it doesn't justify subsequent threats. That is like blaming a victim.



#171 puppytreats

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 10:48 AM

 

Is it a "smear" to say bribes were given if they were? No
Will bribes stop if that is the way? No, but maybe one person will be a sacrificial lamb
Is it her fault that someone looked into bribes?  Doubtful.  I don't know how the "plea" and "cooperation" game works in Russia.
I am thinking the anger is that she didn't give the bribe, or close her eyes and walk away.  For this reason, I still can't understand the threats made in the press.
 

You cannot accuse someone of a crime unless you can PROVE that it was committed. And she cannot prove that bribes were given and accepted.

 

I am not accusing anyone of a crime.

 

I don't think she accused anyone of a crime.  I think she said she left because she did not want to become involved in paying for roles or finding a rich lover. which she was advised she had to do.  She said she was told by the AD to find out how to play the game.  She apparently did not feel it was worth it.  She does not look like she is interested in accusing anyone of anything. 

 

Is she obligated to lie, particularly after being threatened? I think the threats would push someone to gather evidence of the truth as a defense.  



#172 seniordancer

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 10:54 AM

 

 

Is it a "smear" to say bribes were given if they were? No
Will bribes stop if that is the way? No, but maybe one person will be a sacrificial lamb
Is it her fault that someone looked into bribes?  Doubtful.  I don't know how the "plea" and "cooperation" game works in Russia.
I am thinking the anger is that she didn't give the bribe, or close her eyes and walk away.  For this reason, I still can't understand the threats made in the press.
 

You cannot accuse someone of a crime unless you can PROVE that it was committed. And she cannot prove that bribes were given and accepted.

 

I am not accusing anyone of a crime.

I don't think she accused anyone of a crime.  I think she said she left because she did not want to become involved in paying for roles. which she was advised she had to do.  She said she was told by the AD to find out how to play the game.  She apparently did not feel it was worth it.  She does not look like she is interested in accusing anyone of anything.

 

You do not accuse anyone of a crime. But she did by saying that she quit because she didn't want to pay for roles. And it has been established by now that this was not an out-of-context statement to Izvestia. She is elaborating on the claim in the New York Times, the L.A. Times, etc. by mentioning a case of a Mercedes in exchange for a role. But can she prove this? No, this is just hearsay. And even the hearsay is hearsay. But the statement is the allegation of a crime.



#173 puppytreats

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 10:55 AM

 

I think that's different than being the person quoted in the media, because no publicity is considered bad, and that could be catnip to a company that would get immediate press attention by hiring her.

 

 

This is an extremely wise statement! Deep inside I am already waiting for the news that Womack has signed a multi-million-dollar contract with an American publishing house for the tell-all tale "Shattered Swan" or that CBS will give her the lead in a made-for-television movie where she will walk in the final scene into the Siberian ice desert. Does anyone know whether there is any credibility to the claim that the Kremlin Ballet is interested in her? It must have a reason why she is neither confirming, nor denying a possible contract with them.

 

Maybe this whole social media debate is why she does not confirm or deny anything. Because anything she says can and will be used and twisted for anyone's selfish goal, including the company seeking press attention



#174 Helene

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 11:03 AM

If someone accuses a person or institution of having a felony, does that person or institution not have the right to use every legal remedy to dispute it? If a thug came to her door, that would be illegal means. If a person called and said, "I will call every artistic director in the world and have you blacklisted," in most places that would be illegal. If someone called her and took her aside and said, "Wrong way to do things in the business world," or "You can forget any good recommendation from me, since I won't be tainted by any association with you." that is well within their rights, and she can take it any way she chooses.

There was no reason for the Bolshoi to fire her: she's hardly unique in that regard. Filin gave her an option: figure it out for yourself and make yourself useful and fit in, but don't come running to him to fix it. (He has a few other fish to fry, like trying to see again, and trying to re-establish a place for himself.) She had an option to use her time wisely and spin her leave for positive reasons. That, of course, would not have stopped her from cooperationg in a future investigation or writing her tell-all book, doing her tell-all interview for NYT Magazine, selling her story for a screenplay, or going on 60 Minutes like Gelsey Kirkland. It wouldn't have stopped her from warning people (semi) privately -- her Virginia talk was low-key and became public because Kiem wrote about it -- or talking to every American in the school. It would have allowed her to establish her professional and personal credibility elsewhere.

She doesn't lose credibility by exposing crimes: she loses credibility by inconsistent statements, unrealistic expectations, deleting tweets, and expecting to drop a bomb and run. In the Dmitrichenko trial, Annadurdyev may have been telling the truth on the stand, but he was not a credible witness, at least by press reports. (The judge may later beg to differ and state that she based her ruling on his statements in court.). If witnesses aren't credible, why should the public believe them when there is something for them to gain?

And, yes, accusing an unidentified party of taking bribes is accusing someone of a crime. That's why Urin told her to go to the police with her accusations. Accusing management of a government controlled institution of condoning criminal activity could be accusing someone of a crime.

#175 puppytreats

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 11:56 AM

If someone accuses a person or institution of having a felony, does that person or institution not have the right to use every legal remedy to dispute it? If a thug came to her door, that would be illegal means. ...

And, yes, accusing an unidentified party of taking bribes is accusing someone of a crime. That's why Urin told her to go to the police with her accusations. Accusing management of a government controlled institution of condoning criminal activity could be accusing someone of a crime.

If a thug came to one's door, and then the management told one to go to the police, and then one went to police, then that would be a very convenient way to end the scandal - go to police, thug finds out, no more witness, no testimony. Managements' hands are cleaned.   

I would not call that a lack of credibility.  

 

When did this tell-all book come into being, anyway?  Is that what you call something to gain?  I  would call that a "smear" campaign.  The girl walked away, she explained why when asked, end of story.  



#176 swanchat

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 12:00 PM

She doesn't lose credibility by exposing crimes: she loses credibility by inconsistent statements, unrealistic expectations, deleting tweets, and expecting to drop a bomb and run. In the Dmitrichenko trial, Annadurdyev may have been telling the truth on the stand, but he was not a credible witness, at least by press reports. (The judge may later beg to differ and state that she based her ruling on his statements in court.). If witnesses aren't credible, why should the public believe them when there is something for them to gain?

And, yes, accusing an unidentified party of taking bribes is accusing someone of a crime. That's why Urin told her to go to the police with her accusations. Accusing management of a government controlled institution of condoning criminal activity could be accusing someone of a crime.

Chewing all this over, I keep coming up with one word. Accountability. Sure, she's 19 and still developing those brain cells but to paint her as an innocent player in this doesn't fit the picture. She screams "extortion" but when told to make a complaint, she refuses. She may have her reasons, if so then she should have stayed quiet, moved on and saved the story for a later time. She marries someone for her own convenience and then decides it's not what she wanted; so it seems she used a boy (who I hope knew what he had agreed to) for her own purposes. She makes inconsistent statements, including that she was a soloist instead of the fact that she was in the corps. Social media is not given "under oath" but it is in writing or video and very accessible so inconsistent statements only serve to destroy credibility. When you add all of this together, it's picture of a girl obsessed with a country, a culture and ballet company and her dream of taking all of those entities by storm- no matter what the cost or who is used in the process. And when it doesn't work out according to the dream, she accuses the organization of crimes. The organization should take that accusation seriously.  Since she made the statement of her own volition (she wasn't threatened), she should be  accountable for the accusation. If the accusations were proved, she would be venerated and the person(s) saying that to her should be held accountable.  Her only action thus far has been to cry wolf to the press.  Her parents should hold her accountable for her questionable life decisions. I'm assuming it was THEIR investment and for the girl to agree to that salary was a very poor return on that investment. Her teachers should have instilled in her the proper manner in which to conduct herself as a professional. In most cases, it's just not considered appropriate to "beg for solo roles" when you are a new dancer. It's not even expected that new dancers will be cast in these large companies. Her teachers should be held accountable or if they did try to instill professional behavior in her, then Womack should be held accountable for being unprofessional. As someone said earlier, there are lots of 18/19/20 year olds working professionally worldwide and the majority aren't begging for solos. They are just happy to be working! Her "fans" on the various social media outlets should hold her accountable for her conflicting statements. So, while her inconsistencies and unwise rants in the media may be a reflection of her still growing brain, the consequences can't be shoved under the rug because she's "still growing."

 

As far as accepting her and her parent's use of social media to promote her career, it may "branding" but it still puts a great deal of pressure on young, still developing dancers to live up to the hype. Maybe she felt the need to make the accusations to explain her lack of success because of how public her journey was from such a young age. Gee, wouldn't it have been less traumatic for this girl if she could have quietly moved on to another job to see if she fared better? Maybe she felt the need to make the accusations to explain her lack of success because of how public her journey was from such a young age. Maybe branding and using various social media outlets is a useful tool for those who have gained some experience, good reviews and are beginning to attract a fan base but I think it's a very tool dangerous for children, adolescents and young adolescent adults. These young folks should be allowed to try and fail much less publicly and failure is a part of learning, especially in this age group. I have empathy for this girl, she's been in the public eye (of her own choosing- but still...) and she's made unwise choices publicly and it seems as if the situation got out of control for her. I really hope that she "disappears" from the public eye for a while, goes back to the barre, learns from the experience and is able to find a situation that makes her and her employer happy.



#177 puppytreats

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 12:07 PM

Apparently some types of public assertions make management defensive, but not others.

 

http://www.themoscow...ml?ask_mobile=Y



#178 Julies

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 12:32 PM

It is VERY wrong, but not surprising that Precious is being discriminated against for her skin color in Russia. But, I was surprised to see her speak to the press about it at this time, as I believe she graduates from the academy this spring? Who is advising these young women to speak to the press?   Couldnt she have waited until after graduation and leaving the country ? What good will it do her, or anyone else there to bring it up now? 

As for Ms Womack, I hope she returns home and pulls her life together. Get off the social media train-wreck and realistically assess her talents and goals.  



#179 writer

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 01:32 PM

There is no excuse for racism and I am sorry she has to endure this. I have watched a few of her clips on youtube just now, but my eye is not trained enough to really critique her technique. I do sense a lack of turnout, which may also be an issue for her. I think the article is painting a picture of a brilliant dancer being overlooked solely due to her race. I don't doubt she is experiencing racism but I am not sure if there are technique issues going on as well.



#180 abatt

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 02:07 PM

Is Precious also paying the $18K in tuition that Womack paid? (Just asking because it would add insult to injury if she were paying to have these racial slurs thrown at her.)  If her allegations are  true, the comment made to Precious is disgusting. The Bolshoi seems to have little sense of political correctness or sensitivity when it comes to race, as evidenced by their disturbing use of blackface in various Live In Cinema ballet broadcasts.




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