Follow-up to Sugarplumgate

[lmspear]

20 hours ago, vipa said:

I'm actually interested in what you mean by the shape of her body. Her feet and legs are quite beautiful IMO. So do you mean her weight or some other aspect to her shape?

I wasn't commenting on Peck's shape, which I think is lovely. It was about my surprise at realizing that other dancers received comments on their physiques in reviews and that with Peck the dancing was the focus.  Here are two examples of what I mean.  They may both be from Alistair McCauley, but I don't have a way to trace them.  The first was an ode on David Hallberg's arches and the other was a review of Janie Taylor and her hair.  My point was the delight I  found that Peck's artistry is the primary focus of her reviews.

[cubanmiamiboy]

15 minutes ago, lmspear said:

I wasn't commenting on Peck's shape, which I think is lovely. It was about my surprise at realizing that other dancers received comments on their physiques in reviews and that with Peck the dancing was the focus.  Here are two examples of what I mean.  They may both be from Alistair McCauley, but I don't have a way to trace them.  The first was an ode on David Hallberg's arches and the other was a review of Janie Taylor and her hair.  My point was the delight I  found that Peck's artistry is the primary focus of her reviews.

But again....Peck's body has never been on the "offending" side of the spectrum. She has never been on, let's say, Kathryn Morgan's shoes, nor does she belongs to the Joy Womack/Megan LeCrone/Oksana Skorik/Svetlana Zakharova "ideal" shape club-( one that has never been favored by me, btw).

Her body has the curves, but not heavy.... she's not super tall, but neither short. And because there are really not noticeable "faults" on her physical appearance, she has been lucky to be left along on such matters. That besides the brilliance of her dancing, of course.

[Helene]

However, dancers are constantly being subject to prior expectations based on body types and not based on whether they are technically or stylistically capable:  she's too X for Diamonds, he's too Y for Rubies, they're too similar/dissimilar in height, etc.  Peter Boal said that when he was invited to watch a PNB rehearsal, Carrie Imler was dancing Titania, and he looked at her and thought, "She's a Hermia, not a Titania."

What's remarkable about Peck is how few times her body type/height is brought up as being questionable, because so many dancers are subject to that scrutiny.

[vipa]

2 hours ago, Helene said:

However, dancers are constantly being subject to prior expectations based on body types and not based on whether they are technically or stylistically capable:  she's too X for Diamonds, he's too Y for Rubies, they're too similar/dissimilar in height, etc.  Peter Boal said that when he was invited to watch a PNB rehearsal, Carrie Imler was dancing Titania, and he looked at her and thought, "She's a Hermia, not a Titania."

What's remarkable about Peck is how few times her body type/height is brought up as being questionable, because so many dancers are subject to that scrutiny.

I have a question about that Peter Boal and Carrie Imler story. I've read that that was his initial reaction, but that when he saw her actually dance Titania he got it. Is that so?

[volcanohunter]

17 hours ago, lmspear said:

The first was an ode on David Hallberg's arches and the other was a review of Janie Taylor and her hair. 

Although I appreciate Macaulay as an exceptionally astute observer, I have always found his preoccupation with feet and hair absolutely maddening. (Particularly how willing he seemed to overlook obvious artistic shortcomings as long as a dancer had insteps he admired.) We'd be hard pressed to find another writer so preoccupied with the minutiae of dancers' appearance. I don't really think there's a problem with "critics" here, only one in particular. Honestly, didn't his editors find those dithyrambs nauseating?

Edited November 4, 2021 by volcanohunter

[BalanchineFan]

On 10/30/2021 at 2:37 AM, Drew said:

I hope @BalanchineFandoesn't mind my jumping in about the fight to get gynecologists to wash their hands (see above post)--I'm not a historian, but loosely: in the early to mid 19th-century gynecologists (at that time all men and modern "professionals") started to replace midwives (women) in handling births etc.  It was a shift in terms of increasing male control of women's bodies--the topic being addressed in the earlier post. About mid 19th century, it was discovered that the male doctors had WORSE mortality rates among their patients giving birth than the old-fashioned midwives did. Eventually the difference was determined to involve hygiene -- Doctors were spreading infections to the women. (Unlike midwives they often treated women after treating other diseases or doing autopsies.) Getting the doctors to wash their hands before treating women made a difference but seems not to have happened without a fight. That is, it took a while to convince people this is what needed to be done. Here is a short, non-scholarly article that goes into more detail:

https://theconversation.com/ignaz-semmelweis-the-doctor-who-discovered-the-disease-fighting-power-of-hand-washing-in-1847-135528

 

Thank you @Drew. That's exactly what I was referencing. One well constructed study proved that washing hands made a difference, saving women's lives, and the male doctors STILL wouldn't do it. Thank you for the link, too. I look forward to reading it.

[BalanchineFan]

On 11/2/2021 at 9:34 PM, Helene said:

Kaori Nakamura, who surely is shorter than Tiler Peck, danced a splendid Diamonds in Seattle (partnered by Seth Orza), so if Tiler Peck were cast in "Diamonds," I would certainly want to see what she had to say in the role.

I'd love to see it too, but I don't see NYCB casting any women in Diamonds who aren't tall and leggy, it's their pattern. A lot of people here seem to prefer tall women as Terpsichore in Apollo and in other roles, as well. Just look through the posts.

[Helene]

2 hours ago, vipa said:

I have a question about that Peter Boal and Carrie Imler story. I've read that that was his initial reaction, but that when he saw her actually dance Titania he got it. Is that so?

Yes, he did.  From the Season Encore program in which she and Batkhurel Bold gave their retirement performance:

"The following scene, known as the "Athalie," is where Titania and her cavalier execute challenging choreography among their court of fairies.  She simply devoured the space around her even if it was the air above.  She made the musical score come to visual life, seeming to conduct an entire orchestra with each step.  If ever there was a dancer's dancer, it is Carrie Imler.  Through pristine technique, laser-focused musical phrasing, and sheer zest for movement, Carrie redefined the role of Titania for me in just one sitting."

But if he hadn't been to that rehearsal, would he have cast her in the first run he produced after he became AD, or would he have cast her as Hermia?  She was also a spectacular Hippolyta: you knew if you saw her in one role, you were robbed of her in the other.  Or if she were in a bigger company with a dozen women who fit the mold, would she have even been considered for either Titania or Hippolyta unless every single one of them was injured?

I just think of all of the missed opportunities when dancers don't get to show us what they have to say because of preconceived notions.

 

 

 

[maps]

14 hours ago, cubanmiamiboy said:

...there are really not noticeable "faults" on her physical appearance, she has been lucky to be left along on such matters. That besides the brilliance of her dancing, of course.

Considering flipping Jewels week 2022 at The Kennedy Center from the Maryiinsky to NYCB.  I'd exchange tickets or buy more tickets to see a Tiler Peck Diamonds [T2 in Swan Dive]  especially if paired with Adrian Danchig-Waring [rep Emeralds], Gordon [rep Diamonds], or Mejia [rep Emeralds].  

Study on physical dimensions of Cuban dancers: ballet, modern, folklore  https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/39044317.pdf

I found that study while searching for the stage dimensions of the Cubans home theatre.  Anyone know that?  Proscenium opening, apron to curtain, curtain to last lines?  

Edited November 4, 2021 by maps
+rep

[vipa]

19 hours ago, Helene said:

Yes, he did.  From the Season Encore program in which she and Batkhurel Bold gave their retirement performance:

"The following scene, known as the "Athalie," is where Titania and her cavalier execute challenging choreography among their court of fairies.  She simply devoured the space around her even if it was the air above.  She made the musical score come to visual life, seeming to conduct an entire orchestra with each step.  If ever there was a dancer's dancer, it is Carrie Imler.  Through pristine technique, laser-focused musical phrasing, and sheer zest for movement, Carrie redefined the role of Titania for me in just one sitting."

But if he hadn't been to that rehearsal, would he have cast her in the first run he produced after he became AD, or would he have cast her as Hermia?  She was also a spectacular Hippolyta: you knew if you saw her in one role, you were robbed of her in the other.  Or if she were in a bigger company with a dozen women who fit the mold, would she have even been considered for either Titania or Hippolyta unless every single one of them was injured?

I just think of all of the missed opportunities when dancers don't get to show us what they have to say because of preconceived notions.

 

 

 

Thanks for answering my question Helene. Very interesting. I believe this is why some dancers leave big companies for smaller ones. I'm sure we can all think of several cases of that.

[On Pointe]

Here's an article from the New York Times about the pressure on female track and field athletes to be "fit",  which really means to maintain dangerously low levels of body fat:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/06/opinion/body-shaming-fitness.html?searchResultPosition=1

One would think that the coaches'  main concern would be how fast the women were,  not how lean they look on the track.  There is body shaming in ballet,  but these athletes are body scanned frequently and berated if they don't meet arbitrary targets for leanness.  If they don't meet the numerical targets,  it doesn't matter how slim they look or how fast they are,  which is nuts.  Apparently male athletes are not subjected to the same rules.

[Kathleen O'Connell]

2 hours ago, On Pointe said:

Here's an article from the New York Times about the pressure on female track and field athletes to be "fit",  which really means to maintain dangerously low levels of body fat:

😱 I can't even wrap my head around this. I suppose there's some combination of height, muscle mass, and body fat that might make it difficult for an athlete (male or female) to achieve elite performance in their chosen sport, but I find it incomprehensible that a racer who whittles herself down from 16% body fat to 13% body fat will thereby see her times improve. 

I realize it's a different sport, but have these coaches looked at Serena Williams lately? (She's the GOAT, as far as I'm concerned, and not just among women.)

[Quiggin]

Tom Daley in a Guardian interview says he became very aware of his weight:

Quote

You wrote about this in your book. Is it fair to say you developed an eating disorder? Would you call it that? 

I used to make myself throw up, in 2012. I weigh myself every day. I’ve had a very strange relationship with food and my body image. I guess it is a mild form of that. Men always seem to not have eating disorders, and it’s hard to talk about it. But I would consider myself to be someone that has very much struggled with body image, and eating, and feeling guilty and shameful of the things that I eat.

Which links to another Guardian article about eating disorders in men:

Quote

Rhik Samadder, whose memoir I Never Said I Loved You is bruisingly honest about his own experiences with eating disorders, mental health and self-harm, adds that it is important to look at the reasons why men still struggle to admit to a problematic relationship with body image.

“The dark side of social media is that it democratises everything,” he says. “So you see men increasingly struggling with self-image with gym culture and orthorexia [a preoccupation with eating healthy food] and becoming hyper-conscious about how they look on screen.

Part of this may be the 24 hour public relations age we live in. I've noticed people preemptively apologizing for all sorts of imaginary offenses. Thinness may be a form of self-apology.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/oct/07/tom-daley-on-love-grief-and-health-it-was-hammered-into-me-that-i-needed-to-lose-weight

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/22/male-anorexia-shame-still-stops-men-getting-help

[dirac]

5 hours ago, Kathleen O'Connell said:

😱 I can't even wrap my head around this. I suppose there's some combination of height, muscle mass, and body fat that might make it difficult for an athlete (male or female) to achieve elite performance in their chosen sport, but I find it incomprehensible that a racer who whittles herself down from 16% body fat to 13% body fat will thereby see her times improve. 

I realize it's a different sport, but have these coaches looked at Serena Williams lately? 

The Times piece is an op-ed about female athletes who were/are part of the University of Oregon's track and field program. According to the original news article in The Oregonian, one of the objections of the protesting athletes was that their powerful coach (who seems to be an idiot; he asked one woman if she was putting on weight because she was on birth control) was holding them to Olympic-level standards that weren't appropriate for them:

Quote

“We are not professional athletes. We do not have access to a bounty of organic food. We do not have unlimited time to cook. We cannot plan our days around our nutrition, and we are not the 30-year-old Olympians that coach Johnson seeks to compare our body fat percentage to.

Tennis is indeed an entirely different discipline and it's possible for some female players to compete successfully without maintaining Navratilova-like standards of fitness. There have been times when Williams has toted more weight than is good for her game.

I expect that part of the problem is that women naturally carry more body fat than men, which is an advantage if you are a member of the Donner Party but can be a handicap in athletic endeavors. You combine this with the powerful cultural pressures that lead even ordinary women to become obsessive about their looks and weight and it's a toxic formula.

 

[dirac]

5 hours ago, Quiggin said:

Tom Daley in a Guardian interview says he became very aware of his weight:

Which links to another Guardian article about eating disorders in men:

Part of this may be the 24 hour public relations age we live in. I've noticed people preemptively apologizing for all sorts of imaginary offenses. Thinness may be a form of self-apology.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/oct/07/tom-daley-on-love-grief-and-health-it-was-hammered-into-me-that-i-needed-to-lose-weight

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/22/male-anorexia-shame-still-stops-men-getting-help

Riders in horse racing, who are subject to strict weight standards, are vulnerable to eating disorders and have been for a long time. (Viewers of the movie "Seabiscuit" may recall the scene showing a jockey purging before being weighed.) Men are certainly susceptible to disordered eating and this should never be ignored or minimized, but sufferers remain disproportionately female, even allowing for potential underreporting.

[Mashinka]

Pretty certain "one sugar plum too many" was first coined by an earlier UK critic.  He used the term to describe the corps of Festival Ballet after a sluggish Boxing Day performance.

[vipa]

20 hours ago, dirac said:

Riders in horse racing, who are subject to strict weight standards, are vulnerable to eating disorders and have been for a long time. (Viewers of the movie "Seabiscuit" may recall the scene showing a jockey purging before being weighed.) Men are certainly susceptible to disordered eating and this should never be ignored or minimized, but sufferers remain disproportionately female, even allowing for potential underreporting.

I've also read several articles about boxers and bulimia. Boxers wanting to make sure they are not moved up to a different weight division. 

[Helene]

12 hours ago, Mashinka said:

Pretty certain "one sugar plum too many" was first coined by an earlier UK critic.  He used the term to describe the corps of Festival Ballet after a sluggish Boxing Day performance.

Which is why it was an "If" statement about Ringer, to set up his punch line about her partner,  It backfired on Macaulay, and Ringer was able to seize the opportunity and turn it into something good for herself.  But, Angle being a man, was supposed to be able to take that punch.