Coronavirus (COVID-19) Affects the Ballet World

[Helene]

Of course the quality of the mask -- or double-masking -- determines the amount of protection as well as how they are worn/fitted.  I haven't read anything about companies either providing masks where they determine the quality or requiring specific masks of their dancers.  I do know that double-masking often obscures the bottom mask, so it's impossible to make any judgements based on optics.

[canbelto]

2 hours ago, Lauren said:

I understand (as much as a non- medical person can) about the vaccines and masks- so don't need anything explained about how important they are. But I will say, that as someone who is skeptical of the value of both...these cancellations are doing quite a bit of harm to the "vaccine and mask = safety" cause. To be honest, it seems really, really pointless.... since clearly people are getting infected anyway..... and shows are cancelling...anyway.  Yes, I know the vaccine, is meant to keep people from getting seriously ill (but it doesn't sound like there have been any cases of SERIOUS illness in these theaters that have cancelled shows). But if you aren't worried about this (for whatever reason)- these cancellations indicate there is no reason to be vaccinated; as many people are only vaccinating because it allows them to do things. If they can't do them anyway, and don't want it...there's no reason to bother.  It seems that "abundance of caution" is going to become the next "wear a mask for others". I live in a country where masks are not expected during exercise, and dancers in our national theater do not wear them when dancing (they are meant to wear them going into the theater, but there is a lot of chin wearing). Very little testing unless required for travel or someone is actually ill. We have had a total of zero cancelled performances. Hospitals not overwhelmed. I point this out only to make the point that there IS another way- and also that as dance is so international, many dancers in non- US countries are not wearing masks in studios, so their social media will reflect that- they aren't breaking rules.

Vaccines are very effective in preventing serious illness. I had a breakthrough infection and got nothing but a headache and sore throat.

[Helene]

According to WHO, over 2.3m shots were administered in Latvia, which has a population of ~1.9m, with at least some of those too young to be eligible, and under 5K deaths.  That would indicate that vaccine is working there.

In addition, cross-border tourism is down in general, due to a lower number of passenger flight and more cargo flights (my industry), and testing and quarantine restrictions by the home and/or visiting countries that make shorter holidays less appealing.

[AB'sMom]

Studios don’t always have poor ventilation. Someone mentioned Aran Bell. I’m not sure which videos they are talking about, but most of the studios at Segerstrom Center have ceiling heights of over 30’ and they installed massive ventilation and filtration systems during the first year of the pandemic. The whole place was completely closed to dancers (including students at the school)  for all but a few weeks for a full year. They are currently testing ABT company members before they enter the building.

[Balletwannabe]

45 minutes ago, AB'sMom said:

Studios don’t always have poor ventilation. Someone mentioned Aran Bell. I’m not sure which videos they are talking about, but most of the studios at Segerstrom Center have ceiling heights of over 30’ and they installed massive ventilation and filtration systems during the first year of the pandemic. The whole place was completely closed to dancers (including students at the school)  for all but a few weeks for a full year. They are currently testing ABT company members before they enter the building.

My posts were in defense of him. If it's poorly ventilated, I see it as useless.  If it's like what you're describing, then I also see it as useless.  Seriously I don't know if anyone has seen dancers close up dancing?? Their droplets are spewing everywhere, regardless of masks; unless it's an n95, which no one is wearing.  And then when they're not dancing they're having water breaks where they're heavily breathing trying to catch their breath...again, droplets, everywhere.  And don't even get me started about the fact that dancers hang out together outside of the studios... Honestly, just think about it for a second and you'll see how little masks in these situations actually do.  My daughter will wear the mask as a student dancer, next to another student dancer, and then go for a sleepover that night with said student... Few people have stopped living their lives outside of the studio.  Young people are not living in a bubble.  The two New York City ballet dancers who guested recently for a Nutcracker show... shared a hotel room.  It's right on their IG stories.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Balletwannabe

[Helene]

There's no reason to be surprised when multiple people within a company or school become infected, and performances and classes are canceled.

[nanushka]

2 hours ago, Balletwannabe said:

My posts were in defense of him. If it's poorly ventilated, I see it as useless.  If it's like what you're describing, then I also see it as useless.  Seriously I don't know if anyone has seen dancers close up dancing?? Their droplets are spewing everywhere, regardless of masks; unless it's an n95, which no one is wearing.  And then when they're not dancing they're having water breaks where they're heavily breathing trying to catch their breath...again, droplets, everywhere.  And don't even get me started about the fact that dancers hang out together outside of the studios... Honestly, just think about it for a second and you'll see how little masks in these situations actually do.  My daughter will wear the mask as a student dancer, next to another student dancer, and then go for a sleepover that night with said student... Few people have stopped living their lives outside of the studio.  Young people are not living in a bubble.  The two New York City ballet dancers who guested recently for a Nutcracker show... shared a hotel room.  It's right on their IG stories.

800,000+ dead in the U.S. alone but at least we haven’t had to stop living our lives.

[Balletwannabe]

14 minutes ago, nanushka said:

800,000+ dead in the U.S. alone but at least we haven’t had to stop living our lives.

That's a weird thing to say considering we have all been risking Covid by going to live performances with thousands of people.  We too, are living our lives, by going to the ballet.  So I guess this judgement is on us all as well.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Balletwannabe

[canbelto]

2 minutes ago, Balletwannabe said:

That's a weird thing to say considering we have all been risking Covid by going to live performances with thousands of people.  We too, are living our lives, by going to the ballet.  So I guess this judgement is on us all as well.

I think @nanushkais talking about the idea that ballet organizations should erase all their masking and vaccination requirements. I agree with nanushka that that's absurd. Organizations have to have protocols in place.

Edited December 18, 2021 by canbelto

[Balletwannabe]

5 minutes ago, canbelto said:

I think @nanushkais talking about the idea that ballet organizations should erase all their masking and vaccination requirements. 

Did someone say they shouldn't have vaccine requirements?  I certainly didn't.  Vaccines work. 

[nanushka]

1 minute ago, Balletwannabe said:

That's a weird thing to say considering we have all been risking Covid by going to live performances with thousands of people.  We too, are living our lives, by going to the ballet.  So I guess this judgement is on us all as well.

Oh indeed. I don’t exempt anyone. But there are different degrees of risk.

I meant to suggest that there’s a cost to all of our risky behaviors, some more than others. We each decide how much risk we’re willing to take (for ourselves and others) to keep “living our lives.”
 

I think it’s good to keep that in mind as we make those decisions.

[canbelto]

3 minutes ago, Balletwannabe said:

Did someone say they shouldn't have vaccine requirements?  I certainly didn't.  Vaccines work. 

Not you but @Lauren did.

[Lauren]

I did, that is true. I do not believe vaccine requirements are reasonable for entry into a theater....and as we are actively seeing...they DO NOT WORK in terms of allowing the show to go on. Not a scientist, but in general; I accept the general idea that vaccines prevent serious hospitalization for the vaccinated person. But if you've had the virus and aren't afraid of getting it again....the only reason is to "protect others" (which doesn't actually apply since the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission or breakthrough infection)....or to box check and be able to do things. But if you can't do things anyway- it's a huge flag in the "why bother" camp.  Other countries don't vaccine force, and the ones that are doing so are getting heavy pushback. In the UK, Russia- no need to show medical info to go to the theater.  I am hardly alone in this opinion...If the knee jerk "oh, God, a positive test- life must shut down!" is still with us- then shows will still be cancelled despite getting vaccinated, and so the "abundance of caution" stuff is going to cause more problems than it's going to prevent, especially if the goal is to push vaccines on everyone. Open or don't open, but the knee jerk closings are going to just make some people say "I'm not bothering with theaters/companies that do this. and why get a vaccine since it doesn't matter in terms of what matters to me?" Naturally, others have the right to disagree. I agree vaccines have a place and can play a positive role;... indeed, a more positive role when they are encouraged and offered freely and easily..but not forced. Once you start forcing something, people draw lines, and it is going to limit uptake for people for whom it's not forced.  This is just a difference of opinion, politely expressed. I do understand that those who are vaccine passionate can have a hard time with the reality that they can't shame or control others into getting it. What I do hope is that the theaters stop being a flashpoint for these arguments. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Lauren

[YouOverThere]

5 hours ago, Lauren said:

I did, that is true. I do not believe vaccine requirements are reasonable for entry into a theater....and as we are actively seeing...they DO NOT WORK in terms of allowing the show to go on. 

Have you considered the possibility that even more shows would have been cancelled without a vaccine requirement? As well as the certainty that audiences would have been smaller?

[Helene]

I have subscriptions and buy tickets in multiple US cities, and each organization sent out multiple surveys over time asking people what would make them come back to live theater.  (So did one in Vancouver; I don't remember whether the other did.)  Two have been sending "We missed you in the theater: please tell us why." post-performance surveys.  (Others just send a link to the video recording if my ticket hasn't been scanned.)

While I can't vouch for other companies, and certainly don't know the internal conversations about the results, and there are government restrictions as well, when given a choice, organizations have chosen to make vaccines and masks mandatory, while making different decisions about occupancy for live performances.  Not taking audience intentions into consideration -- opera and ballet aren't Disneyland or Broadway -- and relying on ticket revenue from an audience that skews significantly older here, and with very little government subsidies, would be organizational suicide.  I can only conclude that they did take their audiences preference into consideration about creating mandates within government restrictions, especially given the latitude they were given locally about capacity, ie, they weren't told that capacity was limited to a low % unless there were masks and/or vaccine requirements, at least locally.

There are different situations in different countries, however free, including the accessibility of the health care system, politics, how the arts are funded, and age and demographics of the country and the arts audiences among them.  The only certain thing and constant is that virus doesn't care what we think or feel or want, and it will keep trying to infect as many hosts as possible.

 

[Lauren]

It's never going to be possible to please everyone. There are some people that would prefer there to be no restrictions- and there are some people that don't feel it's safe for live theater (or any gatherings- regardless of precautions) to be happening. There are also, as Helene mentions, HUGE differences between countries in terms of what is allowed, and cultural expectations. But I don't see how a vaccine requirement for audiences has the slightest impact on audience attendance. It certainly doesn't in Russia or the UK, and would be laughable where I live (and attend our national theater often). It's also not considered socially acceptable to ask people whether or not they are vaccinated. If you are required to show a green pass to enter a venue, that's one thing, but cultural expectations differ widely. Here it would be considered extremely odd, and sort of rude to ask, unless it came up in general conversation. It is an interesting question about lower audience capacity...... in our state theaters, every other seat is left empty. As a state funded theater, this is possible; likely it's  not for Broadway. But of course, for those of us who are skeptical of the vaccine stuff to begin with, the obvious question comes to mind (JUST like with the airlines)....why does social distancing (which is comfortable for people.... but financially less comfortable for organizations) important everywhere except in places where packing in more people means more money, and then suddenly....masks and vaccines (which *some* people find highly objectionable, and are physically intrusive for the customer- to various degrees...I am aware that many people don't mind masks and will happily wear them- that's great, but not everyone feels that way) suddenly become ESSENTIAL.  Most people can see through all this, and It makes it impossible (at least for me) to believe any line about "your safety is our top priority" when clearly it's "follow the rules that we have set out.... that do not hurt our bottom line."  I fully realize many people believe in and want these sorts of restrictions, and I'm glad enough do that will hopefully keep things going.- everywhere I'm just pointing out that there is another perspective and there are other ways of doing things than snap closures because of one positive test.....that might never have been an issue at all had there not been required, regular testing. If testing didn't happen unless there was an actual illness, that would certainly result in less of these closures. At this point, I don't see any respected scientific figure pretending that this thing is going to disappear- even New Zealand has given up on that.  I don't have the scientific knowledge to what's" right" and what's  "wrong,"..... but I do think one way is far, far, far more harmful to the art form of ballet,  and theater in general. At some point, we have to move on. But if it takes years to come to that point, one does wonder what the cost will be. 

[Kathleen O'Connell]

9 hours ago, Lauren said:

But if you've had the virus and aren't afraid of getting it again....the only reason is to "protect others" (which doesn't actually apply since the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission or breakthrough infection).

Although it is possible for individuals who have been vaccinated against Covid-19 to get a breakthrough infection and to transmit the virus to others, they are much less likely to become infected than an unvaccinated individual or, in the case of the omicron variant, a previously infected individual who has not been vaccinated.

An individual who has received a full course of the vaccine plus a booster is even less likely to become infected. And, if they do become infected, their viral load decreases more quickly than it does in an unvaccinated person, and thus reduces the amount of time during which they can transmit the virus to others.

A fully vaccinated audience is much less likely to spread Covid-19 than an unvaccinated or partially vaccinated audience simply because there will be fewer infected individuals than there would be in an unvaccinated or partially vaccinated audience. Requiring vaccination is a sensible precaution; it's more than security theater.

9 hours ago, Lauren said:

But if you can't do things anyway- it's a huge flag in the "why bother" camp.

I didn't get vaccinated so that I could do things, I got vaccinated to protect myself against severe illness, hospitalization, and death; to protect my family and my community—especially those who aren't able to be vaccinated or who are immunocompromised—from the risk of severe illness, hospitalization, and death; to help my community reach herd immunity and thus reduce the virus' ability to mutate into dangerous variants; and to ensure that the healthcare system wasn't overtaxed to the point where it could no longer deliver effective care to anyone, whether they had covid or not. I got vaccinated so that things could eventually return to normal and we could all do things again. 

9 hours ago, Lauren said:

Once you start forcing something, people draw lines

People are forced to do all kinds of things to ensure the safety of everyone. They are required to get drivers licenses and auto insurance, for instance. They are required to register their vehicles and have them regularly inspected to make sure that they can be operated safely and with reduced emissions. 

ETA: Here are some links re 

Omicron and prior infection: 

Prior COVID Infection Less Likely to Stop Omicron, Says Study

Omicron more likely to reinfect than Delta, no milder -study

Vaccines and virus spread: Vaccinated People Can Transmit the Coronavirus, but It’s Still More Likely If You’re Unvaccinated

Edited December 18, 2021 by Kathleen O'Connell

[Kathleen O'Connell]

8 minutes ago, Lauren said:

At some point, we have to move on. But if it takes years to come to that point, one does wonder what the cost will be. 

It will take years if we don't, as a society, take the precautions that have been proven to work in reducing the virus' spread. These include vaccination, proper masking, and reduced congregation. 

[canbelto]

51 minutes ago, Lauren said:

It's never going to be possible to please everyone. There are some people that would prefer there to be no restrictions- and there are some people that don't feel it's safe for live theater (or any gatherings- regardless of precautions) to be happening. There are also, as Helene mentions, HUGE differences between countries in terms of what is allowed, and cultural expectations. But I don't see how a vaccine requirement for audiences has the slightest impact on audience attendance. It certainly doesn't in Russia or the UK, and would be laughable where I live (and attend our national theater often). It's also not considered socially acceptable to ask people whether or not they are vaccinated. If you are required to show a green pass to enter a venue, that's one thing, but cultural expectations differ widely. Here it would be considered extremely odd, and sort of rude to ask, unless it came up in general conversation. It is an interesting question about lower audience capacity...... in our state theaters, every other seat is left empty. As a state funded theater, this is possible; likely it's  not for Broadway. But of course, for those of us who are skeptical of the vaccine stuff to begin with, the obvious question comes to mind (JUST like with the airlines)....why does social distancing (which is comfortable for people.... but financially less comfortable for organizations) important everywhere except in places where packing in more people means more money, and then suddenly....masks and vaccines (which *some* people find highly objectionable, and are physically intrusive for the customer- to various degrees...I am aware that many people don't mind masks and will happily wear them- that's great, but not everyone feels that way) suddenly become ESSENTIAL. 

Russia and the UK have had theater shutdowns, and limited capacity. There have been enormous costs to performing arts. Just because there are less restrictions doesn't mean that covid isn't taking a toll on the companies over there.

I also think it's the fact that we want a "normal" theater experience that these restrictions are necessary. I wouldn't be comfortable in a crowded theater if I wasn't vaccinated. I'm getting my booster shot next week. 

And finally, I don't know which country you live in, but vaccine requirements are becoming more, not less common in all countries. 

ETA: I see you live in Latvia. That is a country with a high vaccination rate. 

[Helene]

1 hour ago, Lauren said:

but I do think one way is far, far, far more harmful to the art form of ballet,  and theater in general. At some point, we have to move on. But if it takes years to come to that point, one does wonder what the cost will be.

On what data do you base this to be applied globally?  How do you remove the variables of capacity limitations and closures, which have occurred throughout the arts world, regardless of local mask and/or vaccine mandates, as well as waves of the virus and the arts going demographics?

For decades, arts organizations have warned of the demise of classical arts in North America, which rely on a private funding model of ticket buyers, individual donors, the Board, and foundations, as the audiences and individual donors age out, ie, no longer travel to the theater, or die, compounded by music education teaching being dropped from public schools and the death of variety shows, where an opera or ballet expert would be shown amidst comedy routines, popular music, and animal acts.  So far those audiences have been replaced by another round of younger older people who age into the audience, but we've been at the brink of the arts dying in North America for quite some time, pre-covid. 

There is no "national" theater in the largest, capital city, but a large network of local companies, each of which has to make decisions to please the majority of its audience, or, alternatively, replace that audience, something that hasn't yielded many good results in a private funding model.  

What works in one place, works, until it doesn't work anymore.  That doesn't always mean it was the wrong approach at the time, but we either pivot or suffer the consequences.  But to repeat myself, the virus and nature don't care what our attitudes are, ie, whether we think something is rude, or whether we think we're too good to eat small fish and become extinct when we've run out of mammals to eat.

 

1 hour ago, Kathleen O'Connell said:

People are forced to do all kinds of things to ensure the safety of everyone. They are required to get drivers licenses and auto insurance, for instance. They are required to register their vehicles and have them regularly inspected to make sure that they can be operated safely and with reduced emissions. 

As well as all of the other entry points that require vaccines: schools, the military, jobs, including hospitals, and countries.  I have a vaccine passport with a long list of vaccines I had to have before being able to travel to some countries.

[nanushka]

10 hours ago, Lauren said:

I do not believe vaccine requirements are reasonable for entry into a theater....and as we are actively seeing...they DO NOT WORK in terms of allowing the show to go on.

That's due in part to the fact that we're dealing with a new variant, for which three vaccine shots (the original two plus a booster — the latter of which many people haven't yet gotten) are needed in order to achieve the same degree of protection we used to have against the original COVID variants. The virus has changed, in large part due to insufficient worldwide vaccination rates; that's just a fact we need to respond to and deal with now.

10 hours ago, Lauren said:

I accept the general idea that vaccines prevent serious hospitalization for the vaccinated person. But if you've had the virus and aren't afraid of getting it again....the only reason is to "protect others" (which doesn't actually apply since the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission or breakthrough infection)....or to box check and be able to do things.

While it's true that vaccines don't "prevent" (i.e. eliminate) transmission or breakthrough infections, they do significantly reduce those occurrences. And at the scale of populations, those reductions can make a huge, impactful difference. Too many people seem unwilling or unable to think on such population-level terms.

[volcanohunter]

4 hours ago, Lauren said:

I don't see how a vaccine requirement for audiences has the slightest impact on audience attendance. It certainly doesn't in Russia or the UK, and would be laughable where I live (and attend our national theater often). It's also not considered socially acceptable to ask people whether or not they are vaccinated.

I'm not sure I understand the point here, but in Russia proof of vaccination is required to attend the theater or visit a museum. In response to this requirement, capacity restrictions have largely been lifted. Since Russia doesn't recognize vaccination papers from other countries, foreigners are required to get a PCR test within 24 hours of a performance. (I know because three times this week I was at a 24-hour testing site at 6 am in order to be tested. In effect it added 2900 RUB to the price of each ticket.) The PCR test is not an option for locals, except in the case of a medical exemption from vaccination. Obviously, this is intended to boost vaccination rates among Russians.

Edited December 18, 2021 by volcanohunter

[canbelto]

15 minutes ago, volcanohunter said:

I'm not sure I understand the point here, but in Russia proof of vaccination is required to attend the theater or visit a museum. In response to this requirement, capacity restrictions have largely been lifted. Since Russia doesn't recognize vaccination papers from other countries, foreigners are required to get a PCR test within 24 hours of a performance. (I know because three times this week I was at a 24-hour testing site at 6 am in order to be tested. In effect it added 2900 RUB to the price of each ticket.) The PCR test is not an option for locals, except in the case of a medical exemption from vaccination. Obviously, this is intended to boost vaccination rates among Russians.

Indeed, the Mariinsky lists this on their website:

Quote

Dear Guests,
In accordance with the updated version of St Petersburg City Government Decree No 121, from 30 October 2021 until the lifting of safety measures all visitors to the Theatre must present a QR-code confirming undergoing a full and complete vaccination course for the coronavirus infection OR a QR-code confirming recovery from the illness OR a certificate confirming medical exemption from vaccination together with a negative PCR test.

 

[Lauren]

While I have tried to contribute to this conversation in a way that offers another perspective while remaining polite and gracious (as though we were all in pre-covid times- perhaps having a congenial debate/discussion) at a theater...it seems that it's not really possible. While it's not gotten ugly yet, it seems that the conversation has turned from "what's going on with covid/theater" to "this is the way you should think"; so I'll bow out with these last thoughts and then be done: 1). Canbelto: (notice, I am politely refraining from using your real name). I find it very creepy that you've gone to lengths to attempt to research where I live. It's not considered polite behavior to do that on these boards (I believe there is a sticky up about that if you are not aware of the rules). I will be complaining to the moderators, and ask that you amend your post to be in line with expectations on this board. Also: I departed Latvia for a job in another country. it is in Eastern Europe and while I don't care if you want to spend time guessing, I don't expect you to do it in public. Creepy. Please be polite and don't dox. Highly inappropriate. I also don't know that the publication you write for (and add to your profile here)  would appreciate your unprofessional conduct in this manner.

Yes: I fully realize the vaccine push is to...well, push the vaccine. This is a debate that we are all familiar with. It was my understanding that this board was to discuss the impact of the covid stuff specifically on theater/ballet performance and  attendance. Everyone gets vaccinated or not, for their own reasons. For the person who used the bog standard line of why being vaccinated essentially makes you a good and noble person; that's fine if you believe that. You're entitled to your belief for you...but not for anyone else.  Like it or not, many people will not be vaccinated unless it makes life easier for them; meaning you can do things that you can't without getting it. If, however, you can't do those things anyway because they get cancelled...well, if you weren't going to get the thing in the first place, the incentive is gone.

And I'm done. Be well.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Lauren
to include rules

[Helene]

13 minutes ago, Lauren said:

1). Canbelto: (notice, I am politely refraining from using your real name). I find it very creepy that you've gone to lengths to attempt to research where I live. It's not considered polite behavior to do that on these boards (I believe there is a sticky up about that if you are not aware of the rules). I will be complaining to the moderators, and ask that you amend your post to be in line with expectations on this board. Also: I departed Latvia for a job in another country. it is in Eastern Europe and while I don't care if you want to spend time guessing, I don't expect you to do it in public. Creepy. Please be polite and don't dox. Highly inappropriate. I also don't know that the publication you write for (and add to your profile here)  would appreciate your unprofessional conduct in this manner.

 

When you signed up for the board, it was clear that your location would be public information.  The "lengths" to which someone needs to find this out are simply by clicking your board name.  The expectations of this board are that public-facing information provided by members about themselves is fine to be commented on.  It is not doxing, but it would have been, had you used a board member's real name, since that is only visible to administrators, moderators, and the poster themselves.  (Unless, of course, people use their full names as their board name.)

You've also violated board rules by discussing the discussion: it is very clear from our rules that if you have an issue with something that is posted, it should be reported using the "Report" option (accessible by clicking the three horizontal dots in the upper right corner of each post.)  The admins and moderators will review the report to see if it violates board rules.  Which canbelto's post did not.  However, it is up to you to decide whether this is the right community for you, based on our rules.