WSJ Article on Possible Misty Copeland Promotion

[abatt]

You forgot to post the remarks to which I initially responded. The initial remark was that some of ABT's audience only wants to see white bodies on stage. Putting things in their proper context is always quite helpful and elucidating, isn't it?

The original post was number 139 in this thread. I then picked up on the reference made by another post to "white bodies" in my responsive post.

For the record Misty has a beautiful body. But the posts have focused on whether and to what extent minority audience members will go to non-Misty performances at ABT. That was how this got started.

[volcanohunter]

More of that to come, I'm sure. And of course to many headline writers any female ballet dancer is a "ballerina."

I've also seen this one: "Misty Copeland named first black female dancer in the history of the American Ballet Theatre"

[kfw]

kfw, here's the post dirac was referring to. And I don't presume to speak for dirac but I think "made my day" was said with heavy doses of sarcasm. Actually, but to be honest, it made my day too because it's always good to see a mask of false gentility come off.

Hmm. Awfully suspicious way of putting it though. (Both sides can play the parsing game. Parse Not, Lest you Be Parsed. ) And I'm sorry you yourself actually do enjoy seeing people (supposedly) reveal bad things about themselves. Could that by any chance be a reason _why_ you see it so often? Also, I will ask again, what exactly is wrong with that statement?

[kfw]

Frankly I don't get any of this. Copeland has an amazing ballet body. I have seen bustier dancers and dancers with more muscular legs in major ballet companies. I can name them if you want.

I didn't say anything here about how suitable Copeland's body is for ballet, nor does the post I quoted seem to be about it. I prefer a slimmer dancer, but that's my problem, not Copeland's.

[nanushka]

You forgot to post the remarks to which I initially responded. The initial remark was that some of ABT's audience only wants to see white bodies on stage. Putting things in their proper context is always quite helpful and elucidating, isn't it?

The original post was number 139 in this thread. I then picked up on the reference to "white bodies" in my responsive post.

Yes, this...

Oh, I don't know, Plisskin. The bit about a "segment of the audience" that "prefers to see non-white bodies in a lead role" pretty much made my day, especially "non-white bodies."

...really takes the cake for the least responsible quoting out of context and least displayed interest in actually engaging with the ideas of others that I've seen on this entire thread.

[canbelto]

You forgot to post the remarks to which I initially responded. The initial remark was that some of ABT's audience only wants to see white bodies on stage. Putting things in their proper context is always quite helpful and elucidating, isn't it?

The original post was number 139 in this thread. I then picked up on the reference to "white bodies" in my responsive post.

So your response was that Misty's audience prefers to see "non-white" bodies onstage and then you follow up that they'd never go to the ballet if a non-African American dancer was dancing?

So: Misty's audience at Swan Lake = black and thus ignorant about ballet

To put into context just how ugly of an assumption this is, every year at the Nutcracker I see very young girls and their mothers. It's obviously their first time at the ballet. Do you just assume that they're a "segment" of the population that has no interest in ballet and is only there for superficial reasons? Or do you say "Aww, that's nice" and see that going to the ballet can be a family event, a discovery event, and just because they're not that educated about ballet AT THE MOMENT doesn't mean that they'll always be uneducated?

Right now people are saying that Misty's audience is not interested in ballet, only interested in her. Can you accept shades of gray, and say that maybe they're not that educated about ballet but WILL BE once they go to a few performances? OR maybe they are dance enthusiasts (long-time) that maybe was more into the downtown ballet scene? Or maybe they're just excited to see a big dance event? It's that leapfrogging of an assumption of ignorance and lack of culture of Misty's audience that I find offensive. It reminds me way too much of people who always assumed that I didn't speak good English when I was growing up, just because I was the only non-white person in my school.

[abatt]

Perhaps it's time to chill out. Not every remark has an "ism" or a "code" lurking behind it. If memory serves, canbelto, you also objected to the word chinoiserie as being a racial insult in a recent thread.

Nobody has said that Misty's audience is ignorant except for you. People have merely asked the question as to whether and to what extent her audience is willing to see other ABT stars in addition to Misty. You are constantly projecting your own assumptions into what others post when there is zero basis for such assumption. And all of your assumptions are based on the underpinning that you must be right and everyone else must be wrong and evil.

[canbelto]

Hmm. Awfully suspicious way of putting it though. (Both sides can play the parsing game. Parse Not, Lest you Be Parsed. ) And I'm sorry you yourself actually do enjoy seeing people (supposedly) reveal bad things about themselves. Could that by any chance be a reason _why_ you see it so often? Also, I will ask again, what exactly is wrong with that statement?

I don't actually see it a lot. Which is why when I do see it (as in various threads about Misty) I don't remain silent about it.

[kfw]

I don't actually see it a lot. Which is why when I do see it (as in various threads about Misty) I don't remain silent about it.

You sure do insist on seeing it though. abatt has answered your latest salvo very well.

[Helene]

[Admin beanie on]

I've let these threads stray past our usual policies, because one of the tactics in conversations about race is immediate push back when anyone states that they think a statement or behavior is racist, which shuts down the conversation completely. I don't have to like the way the conversation is going, but I think it's an important one to have.

However, too many of the last few pages of posts are either 1. readings of posts in which the context has been explained already, and, about which people have disagreed with the reading or 2. discussions about each other.

Stop doing that.

[Admin beanie off]

[canbelto]

Perhaps it's time to chill out. Not every remark has an "ism" or a "code" lurking behind it. If memory serves, canbelto, you also objected to the word chinoiserie as being a racial insult in a recent thread.

Nobody has said that Misty's audience is ignorant except for you. People have merely asked the question as to whether and to what extent her audience is willing to see other ABT stars in addition to Misty. You are constantly projecting your own assumptions into what others post when there is zero basis for such assumption. And all of your assumptions are based on the underpinning that you must be right and everyone else must be wrong and evil.

I didn't say anyone was evil. I said that everyone has underlying prejudices and biases that might color their perception of things, consciously or unconsciously. And I said that the prejudices and biases are the only logical explanation I can think of for such vehement objections to everything Misty does or says. And I also said that I wasn't free of having those biases and prejudices, but I am aware that I have them, they exist, and that it might color my perception.

To use another example, when was the last time you saw a woman of color play, say, the Contessa in Nozze di Figaro? Whereas how many minority sopranos have played Susanna? Susanna and the Contessa are not that different in tessitura or vocal fach. You don't think there's some inherent bias on the part of directors and opera impresarios that they see Lyric Soprano X and she's minority, so they think "Susanna," and they see Lyric Soprano Y, and she's tall and blond, and they think "Contessa"? Is there anything evil in it? No, but it's a great example of covert attitudes affecting choices.

[kfw]

And I said that the prejudices and biases are the only logical explanation I can think of for such vehement objections to everything Misty does or says.

Without going into more detail, because as Helene says we've been over and over it recently, I'll just say that my own objections are neither said with vehemence nor made to everything she says or does. Again, there is much to admire about her, and I admire it. And despite the objections I do have, I'm happy for her that she's achieved a goal she's worked so long and hard for.

[Helene]

Unless you have links to interviews in which dancers have given their reasons for retiring roles or in which they disclose that they've turned down offers, do not post this info.

[mussel]

Sigh. Although the AP headline states "first black female principal," many reposted versions read "Misty Copeland Becomes First Black Principal Dancer at American Ballet Theater," even though the complete version of the story specifically mentions Desmond Richardson.

I remember Carlos Acosta joined ABT during early 2000's as a principle, not as a guest. But his tenure lasted only 2 seasons. So she'll be the 3rd black principle at ABT.

[Helene]

Dancers from the Spanish-speakimg Caribbean and South and Latin America are rarely included in the tallies. It's one of the quirk in how race is defined and constructed..

[Pique Arabesque]

It will be interesting to see how long she is a ticket draw. Personally I am disappointed that a dancer of her caliber is a principal at ABT, supposedly a world class company. I don't thing anything special about her performances.

I imagine that she will likely be a ticket draw until she retires, especially considering that she only has 5-8 dancing years left. I also wouldn't be surprised if she joins ABT in some sort of marketing/outreach capacity once she retires. Obviously, KM thinks her dancing is worthy of promotion. I don't like "Catcher In The Rye," but there are a number of people who think it is a masterpiece. Different strokes for different folks.

As for the kfw/canbelto debate: I think that there is a strain of polite racism that infests these Copeland threads like a virus. To be clear: no one in this community would ever call Misty a racial slur (but as Obama said, you don't have to use racial slurs to be a racist). Once you scratch beneath the veneer of civility, there is a widespread notion among this community that Copeland's promotion is the culmination of an affirmative action/PR project, abetted by our 21st century culture of "political correctness." This echoes the widespread assumption in our culture that blacks are inferior to whites, and must get "help" to attain a similar professional status. The preposterous notion that there are people in the dance community who actually enjoy her performances is quickly waved away.

The Misty conversations on this board remind me of the old adage among African-Americans: "you have to be twice as good to get half as much." Maybe when a Serena Williams-type groundbreaking generational talent enters the world of ballet, balletomanes will finally concede that she is, you know, kind of good.

[Mme. Hermine]

I haven't listened to this, but while searching for something else, this showed up. It appears to have been on line since April 2015.

[volcanohunter]

Maybe when a Serena Williams-type groundbreaking generational talent enters the world of ballet, balletomanes will finally concede that she is, you know, kind of good.

I predict that the day Francesca Hayward becomes a principal of the Royal Ballet, you will hear complaints from no one.

[Pique Arabesque]

I predict that the day Francesca Hayward becomes a principal of the Royal Ballet, you will hear complaints from no one.

Hayward is great, and I hope she becomes a principal at the RB one day. She has also distanced herself from conversations about institutional racism in ballet, which is her prerogative. I imagine that if she attempted to start a conversation, she would lose a lot of fans.

[volcanohunter]

I'm sorry you seem to have so little faith in her fans.

[Helene]

That "affirmative action" is a negative speaks volumes, when the purpose was to level the playing field by recognizing how that field was stacked. That the definition of "political correctness" requires a judging qualifier (ex: "the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.") when it was meant to invoke thoughtfulness and respect in expression, speaks many more.

[kfw]

As for the kfw/canbelto debate: I think that there is a strain of polite racism that infests these Copeland threads like a virus. To be clear: no one in this community would ever call Misty a racial slur (but as Obama said, you don't have to use racial slurs to be a racist). Once you scratch beneath the veneer of civility, there is a widespread notion among this community that Copeland's promotion is the culmination of an affirmative action/PR project, abetted by our 21st century culture of "political correctness." This echoes the widespread assumption in our culture that blacks are inferior to whites, and must get "help" to attain a similar professional status. The preposterous notion that there are people in the dance community who actually enjoy her performances is quickly waved away.

I get tired of having to correct internet psychologists who are just sure they know what I mean by having to note what I’ve actually been saying all along. First of all, I have nowhere said or suggested that African-American dancers need help succeeding in dance, or in any other profession. In fact I have more nearly said the opposite, while others have argued that racism is still a barrier to black success in the dance world. I haven't had the good fortune to see Lauren Anderson or Alicia Graf dance (although I have noted that the most exciting dancer in a 2013 Nutcracker I saw was African-American), but I’ve enjoyed Albert Evans and Craig Hall and Carlos Acosta, and – on video – Arthur Mitchell. Your suggestion that my criticism reflects an underlying belief that blacks are inferior to whites is pure and ugly fantasy. Neither have I disputed the obvious, that many people greatly enjoy Copeland’s performances.

Neither I do not “think” Copeland's promotion is “the culmination of an affirmative action/PR project, abetted by our 21st century culture of "political correctness." What I believe – and the way you can tell this is because I’ve actually said it – is that while Copeland worked very hard to deserve promotion through her dancing, by portraying herself (no doubt because she believes it) as having had to overcome racism to make it to soloist, she put McKenzie in the very difficult spot of opening himself and the company – to the same people who see racism in every criticism of her dancing – to charges of racism had he not promoted her. Of course he may very well have thought she deserved promotion, pure and simple. But given that opinions of her dancing vary widely (oh, I know, the people who don’t like it are just racist), whether that’s true is anyone’s guess.

What we see on this board is "a strain of polite" and sometimes not so polite insistence on finding what one wants to find, on reading racism into pretty much any criticism of Copeland, period.

Helene wrote:

That "affirmative action" is a negative speaks volumes, when the purpose was to level the playing field by recognizing how that field was stacked. That the definition of "political correctness" requires a judging qualifier (ex: "the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.") when it was meant to invoke thoughtfulness and respect in expression, speaks many more.

I’m a firm believer in affirmative action. I’ve also noted at least once here that political correctness has very honorable roots – as you say, it’s rooted in empathy and respect. It’s humane. But let’s be real: every good political position can be held for good or bad reasons, or both good and bad reasons simultaneously. Every decent person wants to right wrongs and show minorities equal respect, but every human being, unfortunately, also loves to feel morally superior. Political correctness has become a term of opprobrium because it too often excuses the second.

[canbelto]

Ok "There's no racism in America" kfw, here's one statement I found in the Misty Copeland thread:

California wrote:

I don't know if this has been posted elsewhere, but Copeland will perform at the Vail Festival in 2015 in the International Evenings of Dance, which are typically on Friday and Saturday nights: http://www.vvf.org/a...-dance-festival

Damian Woetzel, of course, is the artistic director and has made some imaginative programming decisions in recent years, but this is a little puzzling. The summer residents in Vail tend to be very white and very rich, so perhaps there is a curiosity factor for them. The underprivileged communities that apparently flock to her NYC performances don't live there. The drive from Denver is truly miserable and public transportation is awful -- no train service, spotty Greyhound bus. Hotels - essential for Vail evening performances - are no bargain. So it will be interesting to see what kind of outreach they do to bring in nontraditional audiences and whether she will do some complementary events in Vail or Denver.

http://balletalert.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/39465-misty-copeland/page-5?hl=+misty%20+copeland%20+vail

You don't see something dark in that sentiment? That her audiences are "underpriviledged"? That the "white, rich" communities of Vail will find her a "curiosity"? The equally ugly assumption that her "underpriviledged" audience won't have a car/means of transport to her performances?

[abatt]

What we see on this board is "a strain of polite" and sometimes not so polite insistence on finding what one wants to find, on reading racism into pretty much any criticism of Copeland, period.

Yes, there are a number of people who are posting on this thread and other threads whose apparent objective is to villify anyone that makes a remark regarding any issue related to Copeland, her dancing, her promotion, or audiences that attend her shows.

[kfw]

Ok "There's no racism in America" kfw

Kindly quote me as saying or suggesting as much. Also explain why I would say in the post you are apparently responding to that "I'm a firm believer in affirmative action" if I think there is no racism in America. And then either apologize or put more words in my mouth.