Sweeney Todd: a new film

[dirac]

When Sondheim announced that -- although there were better singers -- Helena's voice, look and personality won her the role

Uh huh.

[dirac]

This may sound weird but I think the original production of Sweeney Todd influenced me to decide that I loved New York.

I saw it in previews and in the run. I wore out my LP, saw the Patti LuPone concert and last year the incredible Doyle Broadway production.

I'm very glad the film is receiving good notices. I can't think of a better Christmas gift to myself this year except maybe a second Italian Greyhound.

Tell us what you think of the movie when you see it, glebb. Good to hear from you.

[vagansmom]

Uh oh....

Depp originally came to Hollywood to pursue a music career, but as a guitarist -- he only occasionally sang back up. He had no proper experience ever singing before "Sweeney Todd," yet received the blessing of the studio and Sondheim (who could veto any casting decision) without so much as a demo tape.

and

Depp opted not to take singing lessons and instead hunkered down in a studio with a musician friend to work on his voice. "It seemed counterproductive to stand in front of a piano noodling on scales," said Depp. "It seemed like you wouldn't be able to find the character."

I love Depp, but this is disconcerting. Read the whole article from CNN.com Johnny Depp Revels in Burton Partnership

[dirac]

Thank you for that link, vagansmom. The entire article is well worth reading. And as you’ve already noted, this quote is especially choice:

"It seemed counterproductive to stand in front of a piano noodling on scales," said Depp. "It seemed like you wouldn't be able to find the character."

Couldn’t agree more. Why waste all that time studying notes and trying to stay in tune, and all? Sondheim must have swallowed hard when he read that. Well, studio magic can give almost anyone a voice these days.

The movie may still be good. As glebb notes, the preliminary buzz is good, so we’ll see.

[glebb]

I know that Len Cariou was an extremely gifted talent with great training but maybe Sondheim did not want that for the silver screen. I would venture to believe it so in light of the casting of Depp and Carter.

I'll never forget Sondheim's trusted collaborator Paul Geminiani coaching Sally Ann Howes to approach the role of Desire (for New York City Opera) from a non singing point of view.

[Petra]

Thank you for that link, vagansmom. The entire article is well worth reading. And as you’ve already noted, this quote is especially choice:

QUOTE

"It seemed counterproductive to stand in front of a piano noodling on scales," said Depp. "It seemed like you wouldn't be able to find the character."

Couldn’t agree more. Why waste all that time studying notes and trying to stay in tune, and all? Sondheim must have swallowed hard when he read that. Well, studio magic can give almost anyone a voice these days.

Maybe this is why I have felt that Depp has been playing the same character for the last few years. He started out as an electrifying actor - oddly unique yet chameleon-like, but he has been phoning it in more or less since Sleepy Hollow. (I sat out the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise, so I don't know what I may have missed with that epic.)

[dirac]

You missed very little. I made it through the first installment, but not the second – left after forty five minutes. Depp camps it up and waits for the check to clear, pretty much as you describe. Made me miss Errol Flynn and Tyrone Power, not to mention Michael Curtiz.

I think this will wind up being all right, though. The score could do with some cutting - I'll not miss the Judge's song or God That's Good, etc., although some of the other omissions are bothersome -- and Burton has the chops to get us through the dodgy bits in the plotting.

[glebb]

Tim Burton 's SWEENEY TODD has been nominated for four Golden Globes - Best Actress, Best Actor, Best Director and Best Film.

[glebb]

BLOODY GOOD!

Nothing I want to criticize.

It just has me gushing!

[carbro]

BLOODY GOOD! . . . It just has me gushing!

So you've fallen victim to the Demon Barber!

Thanks for your wonderfully clever review, glebb.

[PK]

I'd have to say it was YUMMY!

[papeetepatrick]

When Sondheim announced that -- although there were better singers -- Helena's voice, look and personality won her the role

Uh huh.

My sentiments exactly, but I'm sure you're at least more tolerant than I am, as this is my least favourite of all Sondheim's shows--I consider it the most overrated Broadway show in history. I'm glad Sondheim got the movie to be exactly as he wished it to be, quite as he keeps being quoted as saying--insofar as I have any empathy for such things (I don't.) I no longer am sorry for any strange casting, omissions of songs, because I think if one of my great favourites, Patti Lupone, cannot make me feel even an ounce of anything but more loathing with 'Nothing's Gonna Harm You', that it deserves all the Golden Globes and Oscars that Hollywood hierarchies, wire-pulling, and whatever else can get them for it. I want it to outdo 'Chicago' in proving what these movie awards ceremonies are all about.

I'll never forget Sondheim's trusted collaborator Paul Geminiani coaching Sally Ann Howes to approach the role of Desire (for New York City Opera) from a non singing point of view.

Well, this worked (and thanks for the information, glebb, I didn't know about that), although if they wanted to make her sound more amateurish and as if she could not sing (like Glynis Johns and Elizabeth Taylor), they markedly failed, as she is a glory. You can find clips by putting in a few searches--and here you will see that she picked up what they wanted her to understand about the 'character approach' , but failed to learn to be uninterested in the 'mere notes' (she probably just didn't tell them she didn't think she was on hallowed ground). Sally Ann Howes is one of the beautiful and musical stars ever to appear in shows (many do not know that she succeeded Julie Andrews on Broadway in 'My Fair Lady').

[dirac]

I'm glad Sondheim got the movie to be exactly as he wished it to be, quite as he keeps being quoted as saying--insofar as I have any empathy for such things (I don't.)

These matters can be delicate. I’m sure that Sondheim is very happy that ST appears to have made a successful transition to the screen, even if his own contribution isn’t exactly being trumpeted to the skies, and it would be bad form (and possibly a contractual violation) for him to complain publicly about anything he didn’t happen to like.

Thank you, PK and glebb, for reporting back, but please do elaborate if you have the time and inclination. What in particular did you like about it?

Sally Ann Howes is one of the beautiful and musical stars ever to appear in shows (many do not know that she succeeded Julie Andrews on Broadway in 'My Fair Lady').

I was one of them. Interesting to hear.

I consider it the most overrated Broadway show in history

Very possibly.

[sidwich]

My sentiments exactly, but I'm sure you're at least more tolerant than I am, as this is my least favourite of all Sondheim's shows--I consider it the most overrated Broadway show in history.

Ah, papeetepatrick, you break my heart! "Sweeney Todd" is my favorite Sondheim piece. (As for overrated Broadway shows, I'd have to put "Pippin," "Evita" and "Les Miserables" as my top three.)

no longer am sorry for any strange casting, omissions of songs, because I think if one of my great favourites, Patti Lupone, cannot make me feel even an ounce of anything but more loathing with 'Nothing's Gonna Harm You', that it deserves all the Golden Globes and Oscars that Hollywood hierarchies, wire-pulling, and whatever else can get them for it.

I don't think LuPone is really an actress suited to Sondheim, as fun as it was to watch her play the tuba. I wasn't all that into her performance as Rose in the clips I've seen from her "Gypsy." I think she is much more successful in the Lloyd Webber canon.

And personally, I don't think the Doyle production was very good at all. "Not While I'm Around" was a distinct letdown when it's usually a moment of sheer terror.

Well, this worked (and thanks for the information, glebb, I didn't know about that), although if they wanted to make her sound more amateurish and as if she could not sing (like Glynis Johns and Elizabeth Taylor), they markedly failed, as she is a glory.

While Desiree is written for a non-singer (and is a comparably easy vocal part as opposed to the part of Anne in the same show), I doubt the point was for Sally Ann Howes to sound like a non-singer but to approach the performance from an acting perspective first and a vocal perspective second, which is a common approach for many musical theatre folk. Barbra Streisand espouses this philosophy repeatedly in describing her approach to performing songs.

As for "Sweeney Todd," the most powerful "A Little Priest" I've heard by far is the one performed by Cariou and Lansbury at Sondheim's birthday celebration at the Hollywood Bowl a couple of years ago. Although neither had much of a voice left at this stage in their lives (Cariou especially), it blew away all the other opera-trained Sweeneys and Lovetts I've witnessed.

I'm glad Sondheim got the movie to be exactly as he wished it to be, quite as he keeps being quoted as saying--insofar as I have any empathy for such things (I don't.)

These matters can be delicate. I’m sure that Sondheim is very happy that ST appears to have made a successful transition to the screen, even if his own contribution isn’t exactly being trumpeted to the skies, and it would be bad form (and possibly a contractual violation) for him to complain publicly about anything he didn’t happen to like.

I don't know that I've seen any Sondheim quotes saying that the movie is exactly as he wished it. I've generally seen him saying things about him being very pleased with the end-product, and acknowledging that film and theatre are two very different media, which they are.

And dirac is correct that film contracts usually include a non-disparagement clause.

[glebb]

I'm so sorry dirac, often when I enjoy art I can't put into words what makes me love it.

It's not about picking it apart for me.

When I saw the miraculous Doyle version of Sweeney I walked down the aisle to my seat in the O'Neil and from just looking at the front curtain I knew I was in for a magical evening. I never felt the seat underneath me that night and when Mano sang and went on to play the violin for "Not While I'm Around", I almost sobbed.

Like Leveaux's revival of NINE and Doyle's revival of Sweeney, Burton's SWEENEY took extremely familiar material and transported me to a whole new world.

I'm anxious to see it again once Nutcracker is over.

[4mrdncr]

I've noted, however, that in the publicity surrounding recent musicals, the fact that the actors do their own singing is invariably cited as a plus even if the actors in question can't really sing (or dance). Dubbing seems to be frowned on in a way it wasn't in the past. That might be a hurdle.

This is so unfortunate, as 'Chicago' proved with both singing and dancing: all the leads should have had both their singing and dancing dubbed even if we got weird filtered effects; I just can't forget Anne Reinking in 1977. They also let Melanie Griffith do it on B'way for awhile--desperate, I guess, but it's still running, although I don't think her gig had anything to do with it. Dubbing, as for Deborah Kerr by Marni Nixon, does sometimes work well. She was also very good, if not great, for Natalie Wood and Audrey Hepburn. Redgrave actually even needed to be dubbed when she was young, as in 'Camelot'. Mitzi Gaynor sang beautifully in 'South Pacific', but Rossano Brazzi was definitely worth bringing in Giorgio Tozzi's voice for; they were perfect, I thought. There are all sorts of examples, but the singing in 'Guys and Dolls' comes to mind as awful except for Sinatra.

Sorry to disappoint, but both Redgrave AND Harris sang for themselves in "Camelot". Franco Nero was dubbed by Gene Merlino. Redgrave actually showed up at her interview with the producers/writer/director with an album of folksongs she had recorded at that time. They also changed some of the lyrics to accomodate her strong pacifist tendencies at the time. Personally, I think Harris sounds much better on the soundtrack album than in the film, (Alfred Newman's influence I suspect and his superb orchestrations), and more singing/less talk than Burton. (Of course who can ever forget Burton's voice?)

[papeetepatrick]

Sorry to disappoint, but both Redgrave AND Harris sang for themselves in "Camelot".

Yes, that's why I said she needed to be dubbed. I think little of the film of 'Camelot.'

Franco Nero was dubbed by Gene Merlino.

That's probably why 'If Ever I Would Leave You' is the one moment in which the film truly becomes transporting. The whole sequence works, and you pull for the illicit lovers, allowing the film to convince you of 'romanticism' even though you get a weird royalty-soft-porn sensation while awaiting the exposure of their treachery by insensitive commoners....on a double level, since Nero and Redgrave were getting to do 'Reality Cinema', being off-screen lovers at the time.

Redgrave actually showed up at her interview with the producers/writer/director with an album of folksongs she had recorded at that time. They also changed some of the lyrics to accomodate her strong pacifist tendencies at the time.

All the more reason why I completely fail to understand why people continue to complain about casting 'My Fair Lady' with Audrey Hepburn, considering that that's a marvelous film anyway. Now that you have told us this, the compromises that helped 'Camelot' become, in my opinion, a mostly disastrous project as a film, especially given that it had always been a big mess, make me wonder why people don't talk about how Julie Andrews should have gotten this role she'd originated: By then, she was a huge movie star and would have been immensely commercially viable. Plus, she sang 'Then You May Take Me To the Fair' a little more like Kiri TeKanawa has sung English folksongs than Ms. Redgrave, who may or may not have been thinking about Joan Baez at the time, I don't know. 'Changing the lyrics to accommodate her pacifist tendencies' is not really surprising, given her charisma; nevertheless, I find that repugnant. It is little wonder that, of the big stars in 'Oh, What a Lovely War!' which I enjoy despite all, she comes across the most ridiculous: both Susannah York and Maggie Smith do real work in that film, as does Dirk Bogarde, who is a marvel here. Redgrave is a unique and great artist (her 'Hecuba' at BAM was one of the greatest pieces of acting I've ever seen), but it was really only her presence and beautiful look that were effective in 'Camelot'; a lot of people didn't like her in 'Isadora', doing her own dancing, etc., but that made sense to me, I thought she was just right. She's got a good ear, and is one of the best at really getting her accents, but it's surely no accident that that is her one musical comedy excurstion (I think it is, but could be wrong.)

[dirac]

I believe that Julie Andrews was offered the role but turned it down. By this time, as you note, she was a huge movie star and they would have been delighted to have her. Burton also said no. IMO it was a good thing for both of them as not only was the movie terrible but she would not have fit in well (although with them in it the production might have been different).

it was really only her presence and beautiful look that were effective in 'Camelot'; a lot of people didn't like her in 'Isadora', doing her own dancing, etc., but that made sense to me, I thought she was just right.

No matter how dismal her surroundings, Vanessa Redgrave is always a plausible queen. She was right for Isadora in almost every way – except for her dancing, a large exception, particularly unfortunate in that an ideal dancing Isadora, the Royal Ballet’s Lynn Seymour, was around and potentially available for the role.

Thank you, 4mrdncr, for posting, and welcome to the thread.

sidwich, I hope you’ll tell us what you thought of the Sweeney Todd film when and if you see it.

[sidwich]

"Camelot" was always a troubled production, both onstage and screen. With the troubles it had out of town (Lerner, Loewe and Moss Hart all had heart attacks before the show hit Broadway), I don't think it has ever lived up to its potential, no matter who has been cast in it. I think what it actually needs is somebody to take a loving but judicious knife to it, and patch in another few scenes.

As far as Gueneveres, I'm don't think either Julie Andrews or Vanessa Redgrave were ideal casting. I do understand that Rachel York has been doing an outstanding job in the recent tour, though, and she is someone I can see capturing both the innocence and sensuality necessary in a great Guenevere besides being a excellent actress and vocalist.

sidwich, I hope you’ll tell us what you thought of the Sweeney Todd film when and if you see it.

I'll have a break next week, and should finally be able to squeeze it in. If nothing else I'm looking forward to hearing the music. I understand Jonathan Tunick has done all new orchestrations (expanded from the original 27 player pit orchestra to 70+ for the film) and they are supposed to be ravishing.

[PK]

Dirac, I didn't go into the theater thinking I would like it half as much as the critics were reporting-as I'm quite fussy about voices, and am used to Michael Cervaris,etc. doing it such justice. My friend joining me hated it saying it lost the play's humor and she didn't like the singing. I too love Sondheim but wasn't comparing the actor's voices to the stage voices. I let the experience take me-and it did indeed. Seeing Depp sing a duet with Alan Rickman (certainly not a good singer) delighted me. Helena B.C's intense beautiful face, Sacha Cohen thrilled me in that bizarre part, the little boy's heart coming through as he sang, the sets and costumes, the backround music and how it moves the story. I was moved by the music. I felt what Depp did with his vocals worked well. His natural voice along with his amazing acting blends easily into one fine package. As a musician I am always happy to see another musical movie-this one especially.

[dirac]

Dirac, I didn't go into the theater thinking I would like it half as much as the critics were reporting-as I'm quite fussy about voices, and am used to Michael Cervaris,etc. doing it such justice. My friend joining me hated it saying it lost the play's humor and she didn't like the singing. I too love Sondheim but wasn't comparing the actor's voices to the stage voices. I let the experience take me-and it did indeed. Seeing Depp sing a duet with Alan Rickman (certainly not a good singer) delighted me. Helena B.C's intense beautiful face, Sacha Cohen thrilled me in that bizarre part, the little boy's heart coming through as he sang, the sets and costumes, the backround music and how it moves the story. I was moved by the music. I felt what Depp did with his vocals worked well. His natural voice along with his amazing acting blends easily into one fine package. As a musician I am always happy to see another musical movie-this one especially.

Thank you for elaborating, PK. All other reports are welcome - (Anthony_NYC, have you seen it yet?)

[Anthony_NYC]

Thank you for elaborating, PK. All other reports are welcome - (Anthony_NYC, have you seen it yet?)

Thanks for asking, dirac. I saw it the weekend before Christmas. A strange choice for a holiday movie, really, but the theater was packed with a decidedly youngish audience that seemed to really enjoy it. Myself, I didn't love it, but I didn't hate it either, though I don't see myself rushing to see it again. In its way it's well done. It's got visual style, and the actors are all terrific (as actors). Depp sings in a sort of rock manner, which works better than I might have expected. Bonham Carter really has no voice at all; they should have dubbed her. Sacha Baron Cohen is terrific, and steals every scene he's in. Part of the reason for that is that he gets to play the comedy full out; Timothy Spall as Beadle Bamford is also very creepy-funny. Otherwise, much of the humor has been eliminated. Maybe it's just that I hadn't adjusted to the movie's style, but this endless dourness seemed forced. It's sort of like a sullen teenager who feels compelled to subdue normal human cheerfulness because it's just not cool to smile. When "By the Sea" comes around (which delivers the comedy deadpan), the audience seems grateful for a chance to laugh out loud. (By the way, the audience also laughed in some very odd places. The friend I saw it with also commented on this.)

The great find of the movie--Ed Sanders as Toby. It's very moving to see a kid who can act and sing like that. The best singer in the cast, in fact!

I can understand why some people don't like the stage show, as it's probably Exhibit A for Sondheim's misanthropy, which I do find distasteful. But the whole machinery of it is so fabulously well brought off, and the score is so brilliant, it can be a lot of fun in a good performance. Somehow, in the movie the work seems reduced. I missed the Grand Guignol operatic flourish of it. It's a much bigger experience on the stage. The musical cuts remove a lot of the dramatic momentum that the visual style can't replace. This is especially noticeable towards the end, which right up to the final tableau doesn't really have any impact, unlike the striking final fifteen minutes of the original production, with its ever-increasing ghoulishness, and Sweeney Todd slamming the door in the audience's face.

This will make me sound like I'm contradicting myself, but speaking of big: now, I'm a huge admirer of that genius Jonathan Tunick, but in the theater where I saw the movie, the orchestra was just too loud for the voices.

As for all the bloodletting everybody comments on, maybe the repetitiveness was supposed to make it over-the-top funny, but for me it just got boring. Couldn't Burton bring some witty variety to it?

[dirac]

Thank you for that long and excellent review, Anthony_NYC. I hope to see it myself some time this week, although there are so many good movies out there (off topic, just saw The Savages, which was terrific). I understand ST is drawing younger audiences and receiving excellent word of mouth - probably this group is drawn more by the combination of Burton, Depp, and blood and is less familiar with Sondheim or the various stage productions. (I wonder, also, if that's why the film was not marketed as a musical - in hopes of attracting this demographic.)

There seems to be an emerging pattern in recent years in which a Big Musical with awards potential arrives in Oscar season. They seem to be doing well, so perhaps this will become an annual event, guaranteeing at least one musical a year.

[glebb]

I originally thought it should have a Halloween opening but I'm glad it opened on Christmas.

It's the perfect anti Nutcracker entertainment.

I'm seeing it again this afternoon.

[sidwich]

I finally saw this over the weekend (yes, two months after I said I would!), and found the whole experience very interesting. I know the theatre piece fairly well, but I went with my brother who has no familiarity with the material at all. When the lights came up, he turned to me and said, "That must have been so much better in the theatre!"

I think there are some definite problems with the movie, but I really didn't think Depp or Carter's vocals were much of an issue. I wouldn't pay to hear them sing live, but they were not nearly so bad as to be distracting to me, at least. Carter clearly struggled with "Worst Pies in London," but otherwise I thought she was quite good, surprisingly good. A very dry Mrs. Lovett but I enjoyed her performance, both the humor and the twisted humanity she put into the character.

I had a much harder time with Depp, who I never felt like totally had a grasp on the character. I think he's given much better performances before in other movies, and I felt very disappointed in this performance.

I liked some of the edits to the story, but I think others were misguided and/or ruined the pacing of the storytelling. On the whole, I was not into Burton's interpretation at all. It seemed sadistic in it s use of gore, and failed to really put over the tragedy of it all.

The music did prevail, though. Tunick's orchestrations are stunning, and sometimes it seemed best to sit back with the eyes closed and be transported.