Sweeney Todd: a new film

[FauxPas]

I personally thought that Imelda Staunton should have been Mrs. Lovett - I saw her as Jenny in an RSC production of the "Beggar's Opera" and she has a great belty sound. She is also British and is a fine screen actress. Oh well, not a big enough "name". Also, isn't Mrs. Lovett supposed to be older than Sweeney? That is how Angela came off in the original stage production? Most people thought that Bonham Carter should do the Beggar Woman role. BTW: I always thought that Johnny Depp had a rock band for a while as Keanu Reeves and other young star pups (or formerly young pups) have. Depp may surprise us as he is that kind of performer. Bonham Carter seems just lazy and obvious casting. She has talent and may be willing to deglamourize herself and stretch in a different direction.

BTW: I snuck in and second acted Melanie Griffiths' Broadway Roxie in "Chicago". She sang surprisingly pleasantly with a soft, slightly unsteady but sweet mezzo that was generally on pitch and never strident. She was helped by a not too taxing range devised for the ageing vocal chords of Gwen Verdon and body mikes beefing up her tone with electronic overtones. By that point in her engagement she had mastered the dumbed-down choreography. However, she played Roxie too sympathetically, lacking the crass need for attention and willingness to step on others to get ahead that is central to Roxie. However, her persona was too perfect for the role, an over the hill baby-voiced blonde ex-chorine type with off-kilter charm and a wild streak. Also, she had stage presence that is inborn. I remember that in "Razzle Dazzle" the stage was filled with superb Broadway dancers all younger, infinitely more trained than Melanie doing sensational moves but all you could watch was Melanie sitting upstage center picking at her stockings. Something made you look at her and she was doing nothing really. That is something you can't learn.

I also saw "Cabaret" four or five times. My Sally's were Natasha Richardson, Gina Gershon, Jane Leeves and Susan Egan. Natasha Richardson was a superb actress who sang the best she could. Gina Gershon had a surprisingly good singing voice and gorgeous body and more vulnerability than expected. Jane Leeves was a fine dancer with a mediocre voice but who put over the numbers with spot-on comic timing and just the right accent. She had some unexpected dramatic acting skills in the serious later scenes. One of the best Sally's was Susan Egan who did something uncannily brilliant. Susan Egan's acting was on a par with if different from Richardson but she did striking things with the numbers. She was a trained Broadway singer and dancer with a real voice and she did the numbers perfectly but acted them in a certain way - a funny breath here, an odd rhythm and careless toss-away there that suggested a dilettante amateur with no training. All the way nailing the songs and singing every note but putting the "no talent" into the presentation through the acting of the numbers. She managed to do full justice to the music while putting the non-stellar abilities of the character over uncannily. She was superb.

Compare that to Jennifer Jason Leigh who I didn't see but was told played the character in an annoyingly tic ridden way and deliberately sang badly though she wasn't a real singer to begin with and her natural voice would have been mediocre enough. Or Liza Minnelli who is so incredible and in her prime in the movie that you think this girl must be seriously screwed up that with all that obvious in your face talent that could take her to the biggest venues in Berlin and she is performing in a seedy club just getting by.

[sidwich]

Compare that to Jennifer Jason Leigh who I didn't see but was told played the character in an annoyingly tic ridden way and deliberately sang badly though she wasn't a real singer to begin with and her natural voice would have been mediocre enough. Or Liza Minnelli who is so incredible and in her prime in the movie that you think this girl must be seriously screwed up that with all that obvious in your face talent that could take her to the biggest venues in Berlin and she is performing in a seedy club just getting by.

I don't think I've ever seen or heard good reviews of Jennifer Jason Leigh on stage. I don't think she translates well to the stage medium.

I remember at the time Mendes said that his big problem with the film was the unbelievability of Minnelli singing in a seedy dive club, and that was much of the reason he cast Richardson (good actress who can't sing) in the role. (As an aside, while I was waiting in the cancellation ticket line, I saw Natasha Richardson on her way into the theatre, and she is probably one of the most beautiful women I have ever seen. Truly, someone whose "glow" doesn't translate on film like it does in person).

Depp did start out in a rock band. I think he started acting as something of a "day job" to pay the bills. Hopefully, he'll turn out to be one of those rock singers who can actually sing, as opposed to screaming in default. And despite his resume, it's not like Len Cariou was ever Ezio Pinza. Cariou's voice is pretty much shot now, but he and Lansbury still managed a mesmerizing "Little Priest" at the Sondheim Hollywood Bowl celebration last year.

[dirac]

I remember at the time Mendes said that his big problem with the film was the unbelievability of Minnelli singing in a seedy dive club, and that was much of the reason he cast Richardson (good actress who can't sing) in the role.

The original Sally, Isherwood’s, has no talent and no chance of really getting anywhere in show business and knows it. With Minnelli in the role Sally became a determined-to-make-it-no-matter-what-the-cost starlet, which was the only way she could plausibly play it. It didn’t bother me - much -till the very end, when she becomes Judy at Carnegie Hall going full blast.

As an aside, while I was waiting in the cancellation ticket line, I saw Natasha Richardson on her way into the theatre, and she is probably one of the most beautiful women I have ever seen. Truly, someone whose "glow" doesn't translate on film like it does in person).

More ravishing than she is on the screen? A scary thought. I can’t really see Richardson, a regal glowing beauty like her mom, in a dive either but she’s a good enough actress to pull it off, I’m sure.

Thanks to you and FauxPas for the detailed Sally reports. As for Johnny D., my fingers are crossed.

[Helene]

Thanks to you and FauxPas for the detailed Sally reports. As for Johnny D., my fingers are crossed.

I agree. I've been enjoying this discussion immensely.

[Anthony_NYC]

Some friends of mine in musical theater just get so angry on the subject of the movie "Cabaret." They see it as the beginning of the end of movie musicals, the first one where none of the characters ever bursts into song--the show was completely rewritten so that all the songs happen as part of the cabaret act. The songs that didn't fit (and sometimes the characters that sang them) were chucked.

I can certainly understand the objection. However, in this case, while I think the stage show is great, I find the movie even more powerful. dirac, I have to disagree about Minnelli at the end, I think the big finish is perfect for Fosse's conception. With those big, insanely bright show-biz eyes of hers, she lands the title number, an irresistable invitation to join her and "come to the cabaret"; the MC asks "Where are your trouble now?...Auf Wiedersehen, a bientot"--and then creepily makes his final bow and disappears mid-sentence; the drumroll as the camera scans across the crowd in the funhouse mirror; the swasitka armband... It's not what Isherwood wrote, but I think it's just brilliant.

[dirac]

Some friends of mine in musical theater just get so angry on the subject of the movie "Cabaret." They see it as the beginning of the end of movie musicals, the first one where none of the characters ever bursts into song--the show was completely rewritten so that all the songs happen as part of the cabaret act. The songs that didn't fit (and sometimes the characters that sang them) were chucked.

I can certainly understand the objection. However, in this case, while I think the stage show is great, I find the movie even more powerful. dirac, I have to disagree about Minnelli at the end, I think the big finish is perfect for Fosse's conception. With those big, insanely bright show-biz eyes of hers, she lands the title number, an irresistable invitation to join her and "come to the cabaret"; the MC asks "Where are your trouble now?...Auf Wiedersehen, a bientot"--and then creepily makes his final bow and disappears mid-sentence; the drumroll as the camera scans across the crowd in the funhouse mirror; the swasitka armband... It's not what Isherwood wrote, but I think it's just brilliant.

Whether Fosse was conscious of it or not, I think in addition to anything else he had in mind he was making an adjustment to contemporary taste, and I don’t think he was wrong to do so. Today’s movie audiences seem to have a higher resistance to the naturalistic convention of actors bursting into song and dance. Also, it makes a better kind of dramatic sense in the context of his conception – the songs are a commentary on and a contrast to what’s happening outside the cabaret, with the great exception of ‘Tomorrow Belongs to Me.’

However, in this case, while I think the stage show is great, I find the movie even more powerful.

It’s really a great movie, isn’t it? Look on my works, ye Rob Marshall, and despair!

[sidwich]

Some friends of mine in musical theater just get so angry on the subject of the movie "Cabaret." They see it as the beginning of the end of movie musicals, the first one where none of the characters ever bursts into song--the show was completely rewritten so that all the songs happen as part of the cabaret act. The songs that didn't fit (and sometimes the characters that sang them) were chucked.

I think more than anything Fosse's "Cabaret" reflects the development of musicals on stage, and the rise of the "concept" musical, and relative decline of "book" musicals at the time. Fosse takes the concept that Prince started with on stage, the cabaret as a microcosm of Weimar society, and extends it to the inevitable conclusion. (As an aside, I don't think "Cabaret" is the first movie musical with non-bursting-into-songness. All of the musical staging in the Warner Bros. /Busby Berkeley musicals occurs "onstage" as well.)

I do think "Cabaret" is one of the last hurrahs of the film musicals, though.

[dirac]

I think more than anything Fosse's "Cabaret" reflects the development of musicals on stage, and the rise of the "concept" musical, and relative decline of "book" musicals at the time. Fosse takes the concept that Prince started with on stage, the cabaret as a microcosm of Weimar society, and extends it to the inevitable conclusion.

Good point.

(As an aside, I don't think "Cabaret" is the first movie musical with non-bursting-into-songness. All of the musical staging in the Warner Bros. /Busby Berkeley musicals occurs "onstage" as well.)

I didn't say it was the first, actually. I do think it was a reflection of a change in taste.

[papeetepatrick]

(As an aside, I don't think "Cabaret" is the first movie musical with non-bursting-into-songness. All of the musical staging in the Warner Bros. /Busby Berkeley musicals occurs "onstage" as well.)

Yes, of course, because the integrated musical didn't occur until 'Showboat' and, especially, 'Oklahoma.' There'd always been some story in operetta, but American musicals of the most admired kind were pre-dated by hundreds of 'numbers musicals' and 'show biz musicals', and this is not the diagetic. I actually like the numbers musicals quite as well at this stage of life, they seem more authentically American much of the time. Then there are mixtures of the diagetic and non-diagetic, this can be effective too.

Another good adaptation that came to mind is 'Damn Yankees,' also apropos of discussion of Fosse. I find the film to still be extremely enjoyable, and it's interesting to see Verdon and Fosse dancing in it: She's got just a touch more energy than he does, and her dancing is perfect in this.

[dirac]

(As an aside, I don't think "Cabaret" is the first movie musical with non-bursting-into-songness. All of the musical staging in the Warner Bros. /Busby Berkeley musicals occurs "onstage" as well.)

Yes, of course, because the integrated musical didn't occur until 'Showboat' and, especially, 'Oklahoma.' There'd always been some story in operetta, but American musicals of the most admired kind were pre-dated by hundreds of 'numbers musicals' and 'show biz musicals', and this is not the diagetic. I actually like the numbers musicals quite as well at this stage of life, they seem more authentically American much of the time. Then there are mixtures of the diagetic and non-diagetic, this can be effective too.

Another good adaptation that came to mind is 'Damn Yankees,' also apropos of discussion of Fosse. I find the film to still be extremely enjoyable, and it's interesting to see Verdon and Fosse dancing in it: She's got just a touch more energy than he does, and her dancing is perfect in this.

I haven't seen 'Damn Yankees' for years but I have fond memories of 'Who's Got the Pain?' Tab Hunter was a very convincing Yankee, like Roger Maris only cheerier and more photogenic.

[dirac]

Sacha Baron Cohen’s casting as Pirelli is confirmed.

http://www.broadway.com/gen/Buzz_Story.aspx?ci=540616

Screenwriter and former playwright John Logan wrote the script for the film version of the Stephen Sondheim classic.

Off the top of my head, I recall that Logan wrote The Aviator and The Last Samurai -- interesting prep for ST. I wonder how close they’ll stay to Hugh Wheeler’s book. (How close should or can they stay? Opinions?)

[papeetepatrick]

'back when we could have lived without 'Chitty Chitty Bang Bang' and 'Goodbye Mr. Chips.' and I personally could have lived without 'Evita.'

Just a little update on this thread where we talked about all sorts of film musical adaptations, I thought I had seen 'Chitty Chitty..' but hadn't ever. So I checked it out--it's not a bit bad, has lots of charm and both Dick Van Dyke and Sally Anne Howes are terrific; she is just gorgeous and sings beautifully. I must have so hated that title I wouldn't have anything to do with it, and thought that that somehow meant I'd seen it. No truly great score--the Shermans again--but nicely done fantasy in a genre I usually can't stand.

I checked out 'Phantom of the Opera' from 2004 also, and dread watching it, if I must say..perhaps I could be talked out of it?

[sidwich]

I checked out 'Phantom of the Opera' from 2004 also, and dread watching it, if I must say..perhaps I could be talked out of it?

It was shot on the cheap, and it's pretty bad. I cringe every time the Phantom opens his mouth (if they were going to get an unknown, couldn't they get one who could sing the part well?), and the sets look like they're going to fall down at the next brisk breeze.

My brother (who is a filmmaker) called me up one day to ask me what I knew about it, because he'd been flipping channels at home and came across it, and he couldn't believe how bad it was from a technical filmmaking perspective (apparently, you can see reflections and glare on the film all over the place).

But apparently someone liked it because it did make money, although most of it was overseas.

[dirac]

I checked out 'Phantom of the Opera' from 2004 also, and dread watching it, if I must say..perhaps I could be talked out of it?

It was shot on the cheap, and it's pretty bad. I cringe every time the Phantom opens his mouth (if they were going to get an unknown, couldn't they get one who could sing the part well?), and the sets look like they're going to fall down at the next brisk breeze.

My brother (who is a filmmaker) called me up one day to ask me what I knew about it, because he'd been flipping channels at home and came across it, and he couldn't believe how bad it was from a technical filmmaking perspective (apparently, you can see reflections and glare on the film all over the place).

But apparently someone liked it because it did make money, although most of it was overseas.

In addition to the above, they couldn't quite bring themselves to make the Phantom unattractive, and they gave him this absurd little mask that looks as if it was gluesticked on so we could see how cute he was.

[papeetepatrick]

Thanks dirac, sidwich--well, it has one slight thing in common with Sondheim: 'Evening Primrose' was a charming fairy tale and mysterious as well, that took place in a department store. This 'Phantom' just feels like a claustrophobic, perfume-spray area of a Big Department Store throughout. (There were florists and candle-shops as well, of course).

On the plus side, this was a perfectly serviceable way for me to finally see this phenomenon from start to finish, of which I'd never seen a production. It will be enough, even though horrible. I agree with sidwich about the Phantom's hard, ugly voice, but Christine's was very irritating too. I'm glad I've done it, though, because that will be all of my Lloyd Webber for the duration. I don't know why people complain about Paris Hilton culture--she never irreparably destroyed a whole art form.

Yuck! start to finish. Not a single good performance either, even Miranda Richardson didn't know what to do besides just wander around from time to time. One of the worst things I've ever seen.

[sandik]

Just a little update on this thread where we talked about all sorts of film musical adaptations, I thought I had seen 'Chitty Chitty..' but hadn't ever. So I checked it out--it's not a bit bad, has lots of charm and both Dick Van Dyke and Sally Anne Howes are terrific; she is just gorgeous and sings beautifully. I must have so hated that title I wouldn't have anything to do with it, and thought that that somehow meant I'd seen it. No truly great score--the Shermans again--but nicely done fantasy in a genre I usually can't stand.

I saw this as a kid, so my memories are from that part of my life. In that context, alongside films like Mary Poppins and Dr. Doolittle, I thought Chitty Chitty Bang Bang was quite good. Sally Ann Howe seemed more formal than Julie Andrews, a bit stiffer, but then the character was a stiffer one too, so that was appropriate. The musical aspects were not quite as charming as the Disney film (the dancing was less inventive) but they worked well in the context of the film.

Where I think it really fell short was in comparison to the source material -- Dahl's work has a darkness that film and theater adaptations seem to feel they need to banish, as if children can't cope with the nasty bits. There are many flaws in the recent Tim Burton "Chocolate Factory" film, but he does manage to capture a good-sized chunk of the scary stuff.

[papeetepatrick]

The musical aspects were not quite as charming as the Disney film (the dancing was less inventive) but they worked well in the context of the film.

I read some more reviews since, and one complaint I found strange was of that song 'Lovely Lonely Man', which I thought was the one truly original song in the movie, and it has a completely different mood from anything else. You see Sally Ann Howes in her own aristocratic surroundings (not just in the candy factory, but rather at home), away from the eccentric charm of Dick Van Dyke and his merry crew and the lyrics are not pedestrian. I also googled and found that the stage production album didn't list it, so I don't know if that's usually been left out. What some thought was an anomaly was to me a moment of real sophistication, a tone that is otherwise never emphasized. I am surprised Miss Howes was not used in many more musical works, because I think she was a major talent in that particular arena, every bit as much so as Julie Andrews and Shirley Jones, and perhaps more alluring. I know she did Eliza after Andrews, but I've never heard reports of it.

Look at this photo of her at age 74. Still a classic beauty, and with some resemblance to Kiri TeKanawa.

http://www.imdb.com/gallery/granitz/3057/S...lly%20Ann&seq=2

EDITED TO ADD: in doing some light research on Miss Howes, I saw that the only other filmed version of 'A Little Night Music' for TV in 1990, with Miss Howes as Desiree. I couldn't believe it, and have never heard of it.

Now, this is the Sondheim I want to see! I bet she is magnificent! Have you seen it, sidwich (or anyone else)? I imagine it is the very ultimate production of this show. The only review at IMDB laments that there is no DVD. I think I may put a Search Favourite at eBay, because somebody might record it and then sell it. I've gotten other things that way that were never put on commercial video.

[sidwich]

Now, this is the Sondheim I want to see! I bet she is magnificent! Have you seen it, sidwich (or anyone else)? I imagine it is the very ultimate production of this show. The only review at IMDB laments that there is no DVD. I think I may put a Search Favourite at eBay, because somebody might record it and then sell it. I've gotten other things that way that were never put on commercial video.

This is not a difficult production to find copies of, which is fortunate since none of the many rumored major U.S. revivals of "A Little Night Music" have come to fruition yet. It's well worth seeing. (It's also not difficult to find clips online. *coughcough*)

There was a short limited run of "A Little Night Music" a Lincoln Center a few years ago with Jeremy Irons which was ... interesting (I can't remember the actress playing Desiree, although she is a well-known name as well). I found I much preferred the short clips I've seen of Len Cariou and Glynis John, although neither of them were really well known for robust singing voices.

[dirac]

There was a short limited run of "A Little Night Music" a Lincoln Center a few years ago with Jeremy Irons which was ... interesting (I can't remember the actress playing Desiree, although she is a well-known name as well). I found I much preferred the short clips I've seen of Len Cariou and Glynis John, although neither of them were really well known for robust singing voices.

Wasn't that Juliet Stevenson? A great actress, although I have no clue as to whether or not she has a background in musicals.

[dirac]

The trailer is now in theaters. A couple of things I noted. Going by this, a viewer who knew nothing about the property wouldn’t necessarily realize that it’s a musical; we’re well into the trailer before anyone sings anything, and Sondheim isn’t mentioned save in the credits, so obviously the fact that it’s a musical is not regarded as a big selling point. Burton’s name is up front, to make it clear that we are seeing Tim’s Vision, I suppose, and Depp too, of course. Everyone looks greyish. I do hope that isn’t the tonal palette for the entire picture.

[Anthony_NYC]

You can watch the trailer here.

[dirac]

Thank you for posting that, Anthony_NYC. (I always forget you can get those things online now, not that I want to, it's bad enough being assaulted with half a dozen of them in the theatre.)

[dirac]

Stephen Sondheim is interviewed in the Sunday Times about the picture. (You have to click on several individual links to get to all of it.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/theater/...amp;oref=slogin

Stephen Sondheim, who wrote the score, might almost have been among the worriers. “The only kind of movie I didn’t like as a kid were musicals,” he said. Everyone who has attempted to translate a stage musical to film, he added, “has underestimated the distance between the languages.” The movie musicals he enjoys — ”Love Me Tonight,” “Under the Roofs of Paris,” “The Smiling Lieutenant” and a couple of the MGMs — are those that were originally conceived for the screen. The rest, he said, are “either stodgy or rely on flash.”

Sondheim is being a little hard on the ‘stodgy’ ones, I think. The big Rodgers and Hammerstein musical adaptations, for example, were stodgy in part because the filmmakers were trying to be faithful to the original and give the movie audience a sense of what the Broadway show was like. That’s an honorable objective even if the result wasn’t always so great.

Other quotes:

As for Ms. Bonham Carter, the “big shocker” for “Sweeney” fans won’t be her voice, Mr. Sondheim said, as much as her interpretation. Unlike the blowzy musical-hall character created by Angela Lansbury, the movie’s Mrs. Lovett is almost as internal and intense as Sweeney. “Which is right for the movie,” Mr. Sondheim said, “but not how I’d cast it onstage.”

After 20 years of directors and deals falling by the wayside, Mr. Burton and the screenwriter John Logan came along with an idea for retelling the story in more cinematic terms. First, there would be no chorus commenting on the action in song; the singing would be done entirely by the principals.

[bart]

The Parade supplement to yesterday's Sunday paper includes a brief interview with Bonham Carter.

... When [directdor Tim] Burton [bonham Carter's partner] and Stephen Sondheim agreed to do the play's film version, "Stephen reserved the casting rights to Mrs. Lovett, a role I really wanted," she said. "Tim was the most professional professional. He wouldn't even tell me how auditions were going."

When Sondheim announced that -- although there were better singers -- Helena's voice, look and personality won her the role, she said, "That was probably the best day of my life." Then they sent her off to "a brilliant singing teacher."

[glebb]

This may sound weird but I think the original production of Sweeney Todd influenced me to decide that I loved New York.

I saw it in previews and in the run. I wore out my LP, saw the Patti LuPone concert and last year the incredible Doyle Broadway production.

I'm very glad the film is receiving good notices. I can't think of a better Christmas gift to myself this year except maybe a second Italian Greyhound.