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sidwich writes:

Even though it doesn't have music, I prefer the Howard-Hiller film. I'm one of the few, but I really don't like Rex Harrison as Higgins.

I agree, up to a point. I’d still say that Harrison, although not near his best, is better than Leslie Howard in “Pygmalion.” Howard comes off better, because the picture as a whole is superior. He’s about the right age for the part, too.

(His performance in "Unfaithfully Yours" is priceless, though).

Off topic, but I’ll go further. It’s one of the screen’s great comic performances. Gosh, he’s funny.

However, before we wax too nostalgic, I suppose we should note that the great studio machinery turned out mostly junk - in every department, although I’m very fond of some of that junk. It’s going further off topic, but IMO movies in general improved after the collapse of the old system. Reasons available upon request. :)

So if Burton does get "Sweeney Todd" off the ground, my hat is off to him... even though I'm rather apprehensive about the results.

You know, I used to think that any musical that managed to get made was a Good Thing in principle, but I'm not so sure any more. The good 'musicals' in the last few decades seem to be hybrids like "Saturday Night Fever" and "Dirty Dancing" -- pictures that are based in song and dance, but in a different way. (Or "Pennies from Heaven.")

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You know, I used to think that any musical that managed to get made was a Good Thing in principle, but I'm not so sure any more. The good 'musicals' in the last few decades seem to be hybrids like "Saturday Night Fever" and "Dirty Dancing" -- pictures that are based in song and dance, but in a different way. (Or "Pennies from Heaven.")

Yes, 'Saturday Night Fever' shows up the all the rest. It's truly poetic and is like a 70's version of the 'numbers musical'. Casting is perfection--Karen Lynne Gorney and Travolta make you feel Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, as a real locale, and they could have easily cast someone a lot glossier than Gorney. So that all the gloss and magic is saved for the danced numbers themselves, and the BeeGees' songs are thoroughly inspired--still, IMO. (It's not like 'Rent', which looks like it was photographed to be some sort of New York Noir thing, so that I had to look really hard to recognize a single thing, finally found a Nobody Beats the Wiz. But then I couldn't stand it onstage either. ) Of course, then followed 'Grease,' where Olivia Newton-John adds perfectly to the cartoon horror and loudness. Pictures based in song but not dance, perhaps, might include 'Nashville' and 'Welcome to L.A.', both of which grew quite organically out of their milieux.

I agree with the 'not so sure' part, and this was even true back when we could have lived without 'Chitty Chitty Bang Bang' and 'Goodbye Mr. Chips.' and I personally could have lived without 'Evita.'

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However, before we wax too nostalgic, I suppose we should note that the great studio machinery turned out mostly junk - in every department, although I’m very fond of some of that junk. It’s going further off topic, but IMO movies in general improved after the collapse of the old system. Reasons available upon request.

I think there are great, great movies that have been made since the 60s and 70s that never would have been made under the studio system for one reason or another (like "Blade Runner" for example), but I would disagree that *generally* movies are better. The vast majority of movies are transitory entertainment (I don't call them "junk" because like Scorcese, I think there's something interesting in almost every movie that's made), and probably always will be. In other words, there's always going to be good movies, and there's always going to be "junk" and I'm not sure that the ratio between the two is ever going to be much different.

I'd also say there's also some phenomenal "junk" that was made under the studio system like the Lewton-Tourneur horror cheapies ("Cat People," "I walked with a Zombie," etc.)

The Hollywood economics that have developed in the vacuum left by the studio system really aren't conducive to a lot of movies, like musicals, and that I find really unfortunate. If it were up to me, I would be hard-pressed to greenlight a musical in the current environment. It's pretty high-risk for the money involve, and it doess make me very curious to see what the plan is for the "Sweeney Todd."

You know, I used to think that any musical that managed to get made was a Good Thing in principle, but I'm not so sure any more. The good 'musicals' in the last few decades seem to be hybrids like "Saturday Night Fever" and "Dirty Dancing" -- pictures that are based in song and dance, but in a different way. (Or "Pennies from Heaven.")

I still think it's a good thing. I'm still hoping that somebody can come up with a formula that will make musicals a viable economic venture in the future. Perhaps with Burton and Depp's box office clout, it will work.

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The Hollywood economics that have developed in the vacuum left by the studio system really aren't conducive to a lot of movies, like musicals, and that I find really unfortunate. If it were up to me, I would be hard-pressed to greenlight a musical in the current environment. It's pretty high-risk for the money involve, and it does make me very curious to see what the plan is for the "Sweeney Todd."

Very interesting post, sidwich, and thanks, but since we're wandering afield (my fault) I'll respond in a PM, and note here only that I stand by the word 'junk.' :)

I think another factor driving the reluctance to make many musicals is the change in musical taste. Both Saturday Night Fever and Dirty Dancing were built around contemporary pop (the latter used older music, but had current hits on the soundtrack used in the picture). Musicals in the old days also produced songs that made the airwaves.

papeetepatrick writes:

Casting is perfection--Karen Lynne Gorney and Travolta make you feel Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, as a real locale, and they could have easily cast someone a lot glossier than Gorney. So that all the gloss and magic is saved for the danced numbers themselves, and the BeeGees' songs are thoroughly inspired--still, IMO.

Travolta is wonderful. (Fred Astaire loved him in it, and used to do a Travolta impersonation.) I didn't like Gorney at first, mainly because she's supposed to be such a wonderful dancer, and she's, well, a klutz. She grew on me, though, and like you I appreciated the fact that they didn't plump for a glamourpuss -- she's a real girl.

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I'm going to offer an unpopular opinion and say that I loved Audrey Hepburn as Eliza. Yes she was somewhat miscast as "dirty" Eliza, but I always thought Hepburn had a rare comic timing and an ability to seem perfectly elegant yet somewhat eccentric at the same time. See: Breakfast at Tiffany's. Overall I really enjoy "My Fair Lady," especially Stanley Holloway's Doolitle.

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I'm going to offer an unpopular opinion and say that I loved Audrey Hepburn as Eliza.

Yes, I think that's why the movie still has life to it--she brings to it a slightly alien quality that goes against what was expected, as if she'd just wandered into hallowed ground, and is unwelcome--but goes ahead and has the nerve to inhabit the role anyway. When I see the film 40 years later, I don't see anything except her. At the time, though, she was also well-reviewed by a number of leading critics, as Bosley Crowther at the NYT and also the New Yorker. This fact is usually lost because this was one of those unpopular castings and, of course, many people behaved as if it were an outrage.

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I'm going to offer an unpopular opinion and say that I loved Audrey Hepburn as Eliza. Yes she was somewhat miscast as "dirty" Eliza, but I always thought Hepburn had a rare comic timing and an ability to seem perfectly elegant yet somewhat eccentric at the same time. See: Breakfast at Tiffany's. Overall I really enjoy "My Fair Lady," especially Stanley Holloway's Doolitle.

Virtually everyone is miscast as 'dirty' Eliza (although Wendy Hiller's performance, mentioned previously by sidwich, is a very strong try). I think Shaw is partially to blame. The early Eliza is at times a borderline caricature, her agitation when Higgins takes his notes is horribly overdone, she screams too much, etc. What is a poor actress to do.

With all due respect, papeetepatrick, I'm not sure that a good notice from Bosley Crowther is a point in Hepburn's favor. But you are quite right, she never really had a chance with all the tohubohu over Andrews not getting the part.

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It's always seemed to me that Hepburn's casting had the effect of redirecting the way we saw and thought about the development of the Eliza character. Her early scenes were something to be "gotten through" (Holloway is wonderful, but very much a music hall type) so that we could all relish the emergence of the butterfly from the chrysalis. The implicit message was "class will tell" (for those who remember that out-of-date phrase).

In the play, it is NOT inevitable that Higgins' experiment will either work or will have good results. In the Hepburn movie, there was no doubt at all. Julie Andrews on stage was much more natural, and earthier, throughout.

I still remember seeing this in Boston early in the run. People dressed up and treated it as something like a formal event.

P.S. Hey! Wasn't this thread about Sweeney Todd? :)

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Give us the rant!

Ok, where do I start? I think the music is inferior to Oklahoma, Carousel, The King and I, My Fair Lady, West Side Story, Singin' in the Rain, basically most of the famous musicals. Or movie musicals. The lyrics are dumbed down and repetitive -- "Do re mi" is cute, but then you realize that every song either has those repetitive gibberish lyrics ("I Am Sixteen," "I Have Confidence," "My Favorite Things") or is so corny I want to put a bullet through my head ("The Lonely Goatherd," "The Sound of Music," "Climb Ev'ry Mountain").

The musical is not funny at all. That's a big minus. There's literally not a moment of humor for three hours. It's just corny sap. Not all musicals have to be funny, but there has to be SOMETHING. I feel that TSOM is like a twinkie diet -- enough to give you an insulin attack, but no real substance.

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Next up, Sacha Baron Cohen:

http://film.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,1925985,00.html

Bonham Carter will co-star opposite Johnny Depp's Sweeney Todd as the wicked Mrs Lovett, an accomplice of the demon barber who converts his victims into meat pies. Baron Cohen is rumoured to be in negotiations to play rival barber Signor Adolfo Pirelli, although the film's backers Warner Bros have not yet confirmed this.
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"My Favorite Things"

The whole enterprise was worth it for the John Coltrane version of this, and he didn't wait too long either, I think it was ready 1959. Then years later they used it in a Lexus, Accura or Audi ad.

We probably don't like the music so much because it's R&H, because in 'Mary Poppins' you get a sillier score, but since it's Livingston and Evans, it doesn't seem to matter so much. 'Mary Poppins' is boring, but probably a better film because made for the screen.

I don't like the music to 'SWEENEY TODD' either.

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We probably don't like the music so much because it's R&H, because in 'Mary Poppins' you get a sillier score, but since it's Livingston and Evans, it doesn't seem to matter so much. 'Mary Poppins' is boring, but probably a better film because made for the screen.

Man, I must the only person who loves "The Lonely Goatherd"... I'll also go so far to say that I really like "Edelweiss" and I get weepy at the end of the "The Sound of Music" when the big major chords come out ("my heart will be bleeeesssseeeeddd by the sound of the music..."). I think some of the score of "The Sound of Music" suffers from the sacharine staging, though. How can you not hate the seven chirping kids by Act II? When "A Grand Night for Singing" changed the arrangement of "Maria," I liked it much, much better.

I'm almost positive that the score for "Mary Poppins" was written by the Sherman brothers, who I think were on staff at Disney for much of the 60s and 70s (the also wrote "Bedknobs and Broomsticks" and "The Slipper and the Rose"). And while it's not as interesting as R&H, even second-rate R&H, I think it works perfectly well with the first-rate animation and an overall entertaining film. I like a lot of the earlier Disney music much more.

I don't like the music to 'SWEENEY TODD' either.

I don't know that we can be friends. :wallbash:

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I don't know that we can be friends.

Now, now, sidwich, we can too. I like a lot of your things, and I see I've got to check my facts twice before letting you see them as you are encyclopedic about these musicals. I don't know how I got confused about Carol Reed and David Lean, nor do I know how I forgot the Sherman Bros., so thanks for the setting-straight on those two matters. People just don't like the same things, e.g., I didn't bring up 'Finian's Rainbow' on this thread previously, because most don't like it judging from the Fred Astaire thread a while back; but I happen to think that, even if imperfect, it's got long brilliant sections, esp. the rapturous 'Look to the Rainbow'/'How Are Things in Glocca Morra' opening, which is like a separate whole musical all its own, and this may be due in large part to Coppola. And, even if I did like the Sondheim score for 'SWEENEY TODD', I wouldn't be going with this cast--no matter what kinds of reviews they get.

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I don't know how I got confused about Carol Reed and David Lean

Both British, both more or less in the same generation of directors, and their names scan identically and very nearly rhyme.

I think that if you didn’t know ‘The Sound of Music’ originated as a stage production, you might not be able to guess – Wise and Ernest Lehman, the screenwriter, opened it up that well. You may not like it, and I can understand that, but I note that even critics like Pauline Kael, who hated it for perfectly sound reasons, conceded that it was a well made and skillful piece of entertainment (and that was part of the problem). I can’t defend myself, but the things that should grate on me just don’t. Also, I really like Julie Andrews, which helps, and as I said earlier I admire what she does in the role – she makes Maria’s immediate ease in the role of Mommy in Excelsis plausible and likable. Anyway, I’m going to watch it this Christmans the way I always do, so there.

sidwich writes:

How can you not hate the seven chirping kids by Act II?

I can handle the lovesome kiddies, but not the amusingly incompetent Nazis of the movie.

I'll also go so far to say that I really like "Edelweiss" and I get weepy at the end of the "The Sound of Music" when the big major chords come out ("my heart will be bleeeesssseeeeddd by the sound of the music...").

I’m with you. ‘Edelweiss’ is not only right purty, but it’s believable as a traditional song – I think many people took it as the genuine article.

Man, I must the only person who loves "The Lonely Goatherd"...

Ummm....you may be right about that. (I think I’m the only person who loves ‘Sixteen Going on Seventeen.’)

papeetepatrick writes:

I don't like the music to 'SWEENEY TODD' either.

I’m not as crazy about the score as some. There’s much to admire, but. (And I thought “I FEEEEEEEEL you, JoHAnna...” was just, well, banal.

And, even if I did like the Sondheim score for 'SWEENEY TODD', I wouldn't be going with this cast--no matter what kinds of reviews they get.

And goodness knows what ST will look like after it gets The Burton Treatment.

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the amusingly incompetent Nazis of the movie.

Yes, and that reminds me of how effective and chilling 'Tomorrow Belongs To Me' in 'Cabaret' is. This was a fine film, but was more effective onstage in some ways if only because a play can convey some of the intimacy of real cabaret itself in a way that film is totally unequipped to do. I never did see what the violent objection was to Jill Haworth as Sally Bowles; this was my first B'way show, and I thought she was just right. There should have been some way to keep Minnelli from exposing the Judy Garland baggage so much, though. But Michael York was terrific as always.

Anyway, I’m going to watch it this Christmans the way I always do, so there.

I like 'Holiday Affair' at Christmas, with Janet Leigh and Robert Mitchum, but also am crazy about 'Holiday Inn'. But the best Christmas number in a show I know of is the office party of 'Turkey Lurkey Time' from 'Promises, Promises,' which was never made into a movie, and I think it still could be very effective.

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papeetepatrick writes:

There should have been some way to keep Minnelli from exposing the Judy Garland baggage so much, though. But Michael York was terrific as always.

She had it under control for most of the movie, and suddenly at the end she’s Judy Live at Carnegie Hall. But I suspect she wasn’t discouraged.

York was great, although I couldn’t quite imagine the two of them actually having sex. Of course, making the Isherwood character bisexual is ridiculous, anyway.

I never did see what the violent objection was to Jill Haworth as Sally Bowles; this was my first B'way show, and I thought she was just right.

I'm afraid I've seen very few of these shows live....sidwich? bart?

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I'm afraid I've seen very few of these shows live....sidwich? bart?
Well, as to Caberet ... the effect (and even much of the music!) of the original musical was quite different from what turned up on screen. Papeetepatrick may have stronger memories.

I don't remember the actress who played Sally Bowles, but I was there mostly for Joel Grey and especially for Lotte Lenya -- and both were thrilling. The Grey character is wonderful in the film. Unfortunately, I can't even remember if the Lenya character survived into the screenplay.

Did anyone see one of the Broadway revivals? I wonder if they reproduced the original 60s version, or if they were influenced by the film.

In my book, both play and film were engrossing -- quite worthy of the book and the original play on which they were based.

Incidentally, I just saw Tony Kushner's "A Bright Room Called Day," about a group of Bohemian friends in Berlin in the early 30s. It was written before "Angels in America." I recommend it if one of the not-for-profit theaters produces it in your area.

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In my book, both play and film were engrossing -- quite worthy of the book and the original play on which they were based.

I didn't much care for the musical or the John van Druten adaptation (or Julie Harris in the movie version) as versions of Isherwood. It seemed to me that all the adaptations largely missed the point, although I enjoyed 'Cabaret' for itself.

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Another Sondheim piece I fortunately caught as a child was the TV musical 'Evening Primrose,' about subterraneans at Macy's who pose as mannequins during the day. I later rehearsed one of the songs 'I Remember Sky' with someone a few times, but it was a rather beautiful musical on the old Stage 67 series. Very like a Twilight Zone episode that had this human/mannequin thing. It doesn't seem to be available on VHS or DVD, so that only if someone has taped it and puts it up on eBay probably. Some of the songs are on a couple of anthologies. Anthony Perkins was in it. I never heard of it being shown again, but it may have been.

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The original Hal Prince production of "Cabaret" predates me, I'm afraid. Regarding Jill Haworth, from what I understand Kander and Ebb were extremely upset about her casting as Sally, and refused to allow "Maybe this Time" to be used in the original production.

I did see the Sam Mendes version when it was still at the Henry Miller, and it was a very interesting re-imagining of the stage musical, not the film. I liked certain aspects of it and not others. I will say I know that Mendes' use of a string of actresses with very limited vocal abilities bothered a lot of people, although not me so much.

"Evening Primrose" is not publicly available, but it is available at the Museum of Television and Radio (in either NY or LA). The complete song cycle is available on a number of CDs as well (pick your favorite fantasy cast!), and it is well worth a listen.

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The original Hal Prince production of "Cabaret" predates me, I'm afraid. Regarding Jill Haworth, from what I understand Kander and Ebb were extremely upset about her casting as Sally, and refused to allow "Maybe this Time" to be used in the original production.

All of this reaction to Haworth (known for the most part only to those who remember her as Karen in 'Exodus') was why I was so surprised when I liked her; I was very influenced by the NYTimes critics when I was a kid, adopting their opinions almost as a matter of course, but my companion that night agreed with me. In any case, it effectively ended her career.

Of course, it's of interest what the creators of something feel about their actors, but it's well-known how Truman Capote disliked Audrey Hepburn in 'Breakfast at Tiffany's' and, as I mentioned during the week, how Sondheim hated the film version of 'Gypsy.' Either they cannot always be objective, or when it becomes public domain, the public has a right to consume and enjoy even without their seal of approval. I like all sorts of terribly reviewed things, things that are even considered bombs.

I don't know what Sondheim thought about the film of 'West Side Story.' Except for 'Company,' I think his best shows were as a lyricist--'West Side Story' and 'Gypsy.' I don't think as a composer he can usually achieve what comes so effortlessly to Bernstein and Jule Styne, but he did pull it off with 'Company,' IMO.

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I know Jerome Robbins hated the film West Side Story so much that he actually tried to get the his credits as director removed.

But then again, composer blessings don't guarantee greatness. Supposedly Andrew Lloyd Webber was very involved in the making of "Phantom of the Opera" ...

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