Audience as judge at Olympics

[oberon]

Watching the men's high bar competition last night, I was amazed when the audience reaction to a somewhat low score by the Russian Alexei Nemov actually brought about a change in his score.

Nemov finished a brilliant routine which had the crowd screaming with delight but he didn't quite nail the landing. When his score was announced, the audience went berserk in a sustained show of disapproval. After what seemed like several minutes, in which the competition ground to a halt, the judges conferred and after much discussion raised Nemov's score.

Everyone will be familiar with the big story of this Olympics: the error in scoring which gave American gymnast Paul Hamm a gold in the all-around which rightly belonged to one of the Korean athletes. But the incident of the raised score for Nemov was something altogether different, where the crowd assumed the role of judge. While I agreed that Nemov's routine deserved higher marks, it seemed to set a disturbing precedent.

What if, in a ballet competition, the audience was able to bring its will to bear on the judging?

Perhaps the judges in these events, where subjectivity enters into the scoring, could be replaced by an applause meter?

[lampwick]

the error in scoring which gave American gymnast Paul Hamm a gold in the all-around which rightly belonged to one of the Korean athletes

Apparently, once the tapes were reviewed, the Korean athlete had done an extra handstand in his parallel bar routine which was illegal, and should have gotten a .2 deduction. He would have placed fourth overall if that error had been noticed, so I guess they won't be making a huge stink about the standings after all.

There IS a certain degree of subjectivity in the judging, but I agree that the audience should surely not be allowed to interfere in the process... opens up a whole can of worms.

Ballet competitions, by nature, should rightfully be much more subjective than gymnastics. Dancers can't pause and take a deep breath before executing, say, a triple pirouette the way a gymnast can. It would look horrible if a dancer used thier eyes the way a gymnast does. Why do they even bother with music or "choreography" during the floor routine anyway? The men have it right...they just do the cool tricks

[dirac]

I agree with you, lampwick. The "dance" moves from the girls are often hard for me to watch. I much prefer the men's events, and the guys don't wear glittery eye shadow, either.

I'm not sure how far we want to get into gymnastics arcana, but it;s a measure of the poor reporting of these unfortunate incidents by most of the media – not to mention the craven behavior of the gymnastics federation -- that so many people have the impression that Paul Hamm’s medal “rightfully” belongs to Yang Tae Young. (This is not a knock at you, oberon.) For a number of relatively obscure but perfectly clear reasons available upon request, it just ain’t so.

If my information is correct, it’s not entirely clear that the scoring adjustment in the second episode came as a result of the crowd’s (very bad) behavior, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it played a role, considering what’s been going on the last two weeks.

To answer oberon’s question, it would be disastrous if audience participation, especially of this kind, played a role in ballet competitions! --not that I approve of the latter in general.

For those interested in a brief recap of events, see below:

http://www.portervillerecorder.com/article...s/d84lpkso0.txt

[sandik]

I watched this in the same way that you look at a traffic accident -- you know you really should look away but you can't help yourself.

I have great difficulty anticipating judging in gymnastics on a good day, since my taste varies so widely from the accepted style, but this did seem out of kilter. Whether the crowd reaction "forced" the change in score or just rode on the same momentum is hard to say, but I felt extremely sorry for Paul Hamm waiting for his turn as the crowd in the hall continued to boo. Nemerov seemed quite diplomatic -- I've no idea what he's actually like, but at that moment he was closer to the idea of an "Olympic athlete" than many of the participants I've seen.

[carbro]

I agree with you, lampwick.  The "dance" moves from the girls are often hard for me to watch. 

Oh, how true! So disconcerting to see some girl do a bunch of triple somersaults in pike, reverse, twist, etc., and then practically fall out of a rushed, sloppy double-pirouette! Yikes! :speechless:

I see the gymnastic leotards going the same route as skating costumes. Remember when young Dorothy Hamill was the first to drop her neckline to an couple inches below her collar bone, to give the illusion of that she had a neck? And now the skaters tend to look like Vegas refugees! The French (and other) female gymnasts are now wearing net and illusion -- and lots of shiny fabric. Let's keep sport sporty, hey?

I much prefer the men's events, and the guys don't wear glittery eye shadow, either.

Yet. :mondieu:

[Helene]

Watching the men's high bar competition last night, I was amazed when the audience reaction to a somewhat low score by the Russian Alexei Nemov actually brought about a change in his score.

There's since been word that as soon as the scores came up, the Malaysian judge indicated to whoever was supervising the judging that his score was wrong.

[Cygnet]

What if, in a ballet competition, the audience was able to bring its will to bear on the judging?

Olympic judges are reputed to be experts of a sport. Personal preference is everything in this case. IMO where gymnastics is concerned, the people I would call real the experts are the commentators that give us the play by play. They're former champs or medalists themselves and they've been there. In an international ballet competition there's no question of the judges' credentials. They're former (or) current stars, prominent choreographers, influential teachers and coaches. They've been there and done it. At this level of competition in sports or ballet you shouldn't falter. After a spectacular routine that pushed the envelope of this event, (parallel bar), Nemov didn't nail his landing. If someone falls during a ppd or solo in an int'l competition, and its the finals, I don't believe the score would be changed no matter how much the audience protested.

I saw a televised competition and the young teens in the pdd danced well and at

the very end - she fell on her butt. I remember the commentator said, "For the judges, the last thing they see effects everything that went before." That says

alot doesn't it?

[Helene]

Watching the men's high bar competition last night, I was amazed when the audience reaction to a somewhat low score by the Russian Alexei Nemov actually brought about a change in his score.

There's since been word that as soon as the scores came up, the Malaysian judge indicated to whoever was supervising the judging that his score was wrong.

There's a new article in the Washington Post today that says that the technical director of the International Gymnastics Federation, Adrian Stoica, was the one who approached the judges to change the scores.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Aug24.html

(free registration required).

There's an interesting explanation late in the article: in gymnastics, once the start value is assigned, the only thing the judges can do is deduct; they can't give "extra credit" for off the chart moves (ex: five release moves). In addition, there is a standard deduction for going out of position after release moves, which Stoica felt two judges (from Malaysia and Canada) applied too strictly to Nemov's routine. At least with the new figure skating Code of Points, there is a base score for each element, and different ways to gain additional credit, such as adding an unusual or difficult entry into a jump.

These Olympics have brought me to the conclusion that events where in addition to form and technique, there is interpretation to music and mandatory smiling -- synchronized swimming, women's floor exercise, figure skating. equestrian dressage -- might be athletic as all get out, but aren't sports.

As far as the alleged "dance moves" in women's gymnastics, particularly the arm and hand motions in the floor ex and balance beam, I have only three words: Late Heather Watts. I won't even go into 16-year-old bootie shaking. In my opinion, Svetlana Khorkina, arguable the most graceful gymnast of the last decade, would be lucky to be hired in the back row of the corps. (Although Kozich from Ukraine has a lot of potential.)

Edited August 25, 2004 by hockeyfan228

[koshka]

As far as the alleged "dance moves" in women's gymnastics, particularly the arm and hand motions in the floor ex and balance beam, I have only three words: Late Heather Watts. I won't even go into 16-year-old bootie shaking. In my opinion, Svetlana Khorkina, arguable the most graceful gymnast of the last decade, would be lucky to be hired in the back row of the corps. (Although Kozina from Ukraine has a lot of potential.)

There is definitely lots of scary dance stuff, though they have my sympathy for turns b/c that floor carpet is not an easy surface.

The whole Ukrainian team has more grace than most though--it has to do with their training program. (Of course only Kozich, the European AA champion, was shown on US TV, but the others have lovely form as well.)

You can see this at club-level meets in the US too--some gyms have ballet as part of the training program and some don't. It is obvious right away.

[Alexandra]

It does seem obvious. Some of the gymnasts, women especially, had torsos of wood!

The judging controversy is difficult. On the one hand, rules are rules. If you're going to have rules, you have to enforce them, and ensure that they're fair. Thanks to Helene for posting that article -- it seemed balanced, and raised some good points. If you don't get points for doing extra moves, or inventing moves (sounds like they ought to look at that one), and your technique is sloppy because you're doing the extra, crowd-pleasing moves, then, well, that's the rules. If you're supposed to file a protest by X hour, then whining to the media about an unfair mark the next day shouldn't count for extra points either. But and on the other hand, if there has been a continuing controversy of the quality of judging, and the crowd is screaming about that -- then they may have a point. I don't know enough about gymnastics to judge.

As for ballet competitions, I don't know how they're scored. Does someone here know? Do you get a tenth of a point deduction if you start to travel, or if the leg drops below vertical in a grand pirouette, etc? But then, I've never known how you "judge" art. I think I posted this story once before, but I think it's worth repeating. I interviewed a choreographer once who watched one of the major competitions from the wings. He said he was amazed at how many things the judges -- who were seated in the auditorium, watching at a far greater distance than he was -- missed.

Perhaps, if they're going to have a judging system that takes deductions for very small, possible to miss, errors, then videotape review has to come into play?

And how about banning smiles during competition, across the board? At least the pasted on grins?

[Helene]

It does seem obvious.  Some of the gymnasts, women especially, had torsos of wood!

As for ballet competitions, I don't know how they're scored.  Does someone here know?  Do you get a tenth of a point deduction if you start to travel, or if the leg drops below vertical in a grand pirouette, etc?  But then, I've never known how you "judge" art.  I think I posted this story once before, but I think it's worth repeating.  I interviewed a choreographer once who watched one of the major competitions from the wings.  He said he was amazed at how many things the judges -- who were seated in the auditorium, watching at a far greater distance than he was -- missed. 

Perhaps, if they're going to have a judging system that takes deductions for very small, possible to miss, errors, then videotape review has to come into play?

And how about banning smiles during competition, across the board?  At least the pasted on grins?

I'm afraid that gymnastics is the sports equivalent of traditional Irish dancing -- no epaulement whatsoever.

I thought ballet and music competitions were decided by jury: the judges take notes and then discuss them in a post-phase meeting. I'm not sure what happens if someone changes the choreography in the "required" phases, but I think the judges have guidelines and a lot of discretion, especially since they are trying to discover artists, at least in theory.

In judged sports, there's rarely a conference, although gymnastics seems to have more interaction among judges. In most judged sports, any interaction among judges is banned. In figure skating, two judges were taped tapping their feet during the competition. The number of taps allegedly was their agreed-upon placement for the skaters. In one of the early synchronized diving competitions in Athens, the computer system when awry, and the judges were in booths with sides to block their view of other judges while they held up score cards. (And inevitably got some of the '9''s and '6''s upside down.)

Figure skating has used instant replay for a while, usually to check jump landings. The judges have it at their disposal, and the callers -- the three officials who ratify that jumps are performed with the correct number of rotations, among other things -- use instant replay all the time. Diving and gymnastics are judged under the theory that the judges do the best that is humanly possible. There were many times that both Cynthia Potter (NBC) and the female diving announcer on CBC noted during instant replay different things that the judges might or might not notice, because they had no recourse to the videotape.

[Helene]

There is definitely lots of scary dance stuff, though they have my sympathy for turns b/c that floor carpet is not an easy surface. 

The whole Ukrainian team has more grace than most though--it has to do with their training program.  (Of course only Kozich, the European AA champion, was shown on US TV, but the others have lovely form as well.)

You can see this at club-level meets in the US too--some gyms have ballet as part of the training program and some don't.  It is obvious right away.

I think its pretty absurd to require turns on a mat that has so much friction.

Kozich and Goncharov (among the men) had beautiful form, and I think I got a whiff of a couple more gymnasts from Ukraine during the team competition on CBC. (Thank you for the correction on her name - I combined her first and last names together.) I think that Goncharov was the only Ukranian gymnast to be rewarded for form, with his somewhat controversial gold medal on the parallel bars. Olena Zhupina had stunning form in the women's platform diving preliminaries. Even when she faded in the finals, to me she was more of a pleasure to watch than Chantelle Newberry, who won the gold. (I don't think either Kozich or Zhupina should have won, but they're the ones I'd pay to see.)

I was thinking the other night how similar the Chinese and Romanian gymnasts are in style. I think that comes from having centralized national team training, where the kids live and train together under a single staff for many years. Even so, the Romanian coach, Belu, said that his team is weakest on uneven parallel bars, because the early training (5-8 years old) is weak. (Which is why the beautiful Ponor didn't compete in the all-around: her start value on bars is 9.3) The US team does not look very unified, because the styles are set in so many different clubs, with so many different coaches, and so much parental involvement.

[Alexandra]

The US team does not look very unified, because the styles are set in so many different clubs, with so many different coaches, and so much parental involvement.

Hmmm. Another thing gymnastics and (some) ballet have in common!

[Mel Johnson]

In another sort of competition, in another age, they had some Vestal Virgins in a special box and they had the say over which gladiators lived or died, depending on whether they waved their handkerchiefs or not. Maybe we should get some of those (well, Vestal, at least) to act as the guardians of the guardians.

[dancelyssa]

I might add that some other ballet friends and I were watching the gymnasts floor routines, and I really do think that the Romanians and Ukranians are more graceful because you can tell that they have had ballet as part of their gymnastics curriculum for many years. Bela KArolyi wanted the US team to have ballet training, but for some reason, they don't, and it shows.

[DancingGiselle]

I watched the Athens 2004 gymnastics competition with a mixture of excitement, frustration, and, finally, cynicism. Ballet is my passion, but gymnastics - esp. men's gymnastics - is my guilty pleasure, and I follow gymnasts and competitions rather closely most of the time. After the US medal haul in the first few days of competition, I thought gymnastics would finally start to receive the respect and popularity that it deserves in our nation. But after the past few days, I think Athens 2004 will actually do much more to damage the reputation of gymnastics .

The judging was not very good - most people with some inside knowledge of the sport (including NBC's Tim Daggett) will argue as much. But I don't think it was significantly worse than the judging at the major gymnastics competitions over the past few years. The difference was that the Olympics receive way more press coverage than any other gymnastics meets ever will in the US (when was the last time you opened the sports pages and read about the world championships? I wonder how many people prior to the Olympics even knew that Paul Hamm was the 2003 all-around winner). Overall, an Olympic gold is the sport's most coveted trophy, so gymnasts (and others) tend to make a much, much bigger fuss over their scores in the Olympics than in any other competition, and the media - always eager for a scandal - pays much, much more attention to them. That's why these things have every one talking about the abysmal judging, which - based on what I've seen in previous competitions - is only somewhat more abysmal than it has been in the past. But now is one of the few times that the world pays attention to it.

I've been too busy getting to the bottom of the all-around controversy to follow the dispute over Nemov's high bar routine, but all in all allowing the crowd to influence the judging sets a bad precedent (although it seems like Nemov's score was changed for other reasons). Obviously, the crowds have their favorite gymnasts - Alexei Nemov is HUGE in the gymnastics world. I doubt they would have complained as much if a relatively unknown gymnast had performed Nemov's exact routine and received his exact score. Judges try to do their jobs as best as they can, but they make mistakes all the time. However, errors in judging go both ways - sometimes they hurt the gymnast, and, as much as gymnasts don't want to admit it, sometimes they HELP them. It all evens out in the end. That's what happened with Yang Tae Young's parallelbars routine. The judges made a mistake in not adding a tenth for the start value, but they also made a mistake in not subtracting two tenths for his extra hold.

Edited August 26, 2004 by DancingGiselle

[DancingGiselle]

To continue with ballet and (in?) gymnastics:

The main reason I prefer men's gymnastics to women's is because the men don't attempt to add any "dance" elements into their routines. No music, no choreography, no piruoettes - just gymnastics. It certainly shows that most female gymnasts - Americans, at least - have no dance training from the way in which they move. The Ukrainians, on the other hand, have a touch of elegance and beauty in their routines that clearly comes from having studied some dance. Kozich was the main example in these Olympics (I loved her all-around beam routine, although she made many technical mistakes in it), but my all-time favorite is Liliya Podkopayeva (spelling?). She won the all-around in Atlanta, and her floor routine had some beautifully executed balletic elements. The little video blurb about her life also included footage of her and her coach attending a ballet performance in Kiev, and the narrator added that Podkopayeva loved to experiement with ways she could incorpoarte dance into gymnastics.

Rhythmic gymnasts, on the other hand, are all at least decent ballet dancers. The sport - invented only may be 50 years ago in the Soviet Union - is specifically meant to combine ballet with elements of gymnastics. True, it will never equal a ballet performance, but at the highest levels it is absolutely stunning to watch.

Sadly, the sport is almost unheard of in the US, and NBC will only devote a very small portion of its coverage to it.

[lampwick]

I felt like jumping through my television set to hold those girls shoulders down when they pirouette. They are all SO strong and capable of using their upper backs to turn. It would be a really easy to fix IMHO.

I think I remember Liliya Podkopayeva. Was she the one who did fouette turns in her floor routine?

Another swan I recall was Svetlana Boginskaya. I used to love watching her.

[dirac]

I agree with you on all counts, DancingGiselle. I think the situation was worse in 2000, with that catastrophic vault error, than it was here. Hamm’s dramatic win had given men’s gymnastics positive exposure in this country it’s never had before, which I was very happy about, and now look. I blame the federation, but don’t get me started on that......

Speaking for myself, I feel about dance elements in gymnastics the way I feel about jazz-rock fusion: why? Both are just fine by themselves, and cross-fertilization isn’t necessary or even desirable.

[Helene]

Sadly, the sport is almost unheard of in the US, and NBC will only devote a very small portion of its coverage to it.

If you have cable and get the Bravo station, that is where NBC is scheduling most of its rhythmnic gymnastics broadcasts.

[oberon]

The woman commentator for the diving competition keeps harping on the fact that the divers' feet aren't pointed. A few ballet classes would solve that problem.

I remember my very first ballet class (I was 25 and all my classmates were 8 & 9- year-old girls). The teacher tapped me on the shoulder and said "Point your feet!"

and I said, "Point my feet? Point them at what?"

[Farrell Fan]

I remember my very first ballet class (I was 25 and all my classmates were 8 & 9- year-old girls). The teacher tapped me on the shoulder and said "Point your feet!"

and I said, "Point my feet? Point them at what?"

Very funny, Oberon. Thanks.

[perky]

Bravo is also showing synchronized swimming, where feet pointing is also a must and lot's of weird angular posing before they jump in to start the routine.

We were watching it yesterday with our little daughter who asked how the girls could stay under the water for so long, after explaining it to her she replied, "Mommy those girls have BIG lungs!"

[DancingGiselle]

Lampwick, your question regarding Podkopayeva induced me to dig out my Atlanta 1996 tapes and watch her floor routine once again. After doing so I can confirm that Podkopayeva did indeed have a couple fouettes in her floor ex routine, although they weren’t something a dancer would be proud of (her upper-body position was especially terrible). The other balletic elements in her routine were much better; I was quite impressed by her sautees. In general, she pointed her toes, turned out, and pulled up through her legs and body much more and much better than any other gymnast.

During synchronized swimming, the commentators mentioned that Anna Kozlova (formerly of Russia but now one-half of the bronze-medal winning American pair) was too tall for ballet so switched to her current sport. I f I’m not mistaken, she’s 5’10” so that may have some truth to it.

[Ostrich]

Talking about audiences influencing the judges at the mens' gymnastics, what about the Greek gymnast who won the rings? The crowd set up a deafening chant of "Hellas! Hellas!" and in the end, I had the impression that he received a ridiculously high score. He shook all the way through his routine! Did anyone else notice this?

Although I think it is very important that the judges don't let audience reaction influence their scores, I do think that they should take note of the uproar that Nemov's low score produced and be more careful in future (the reaction, I thought, was actually the culmination of the frustration that had been building up after a week's contoversial judging). It would save the gymnasts a lot of stress, embarrassement and heartache (you can't tell me that poor Paul Hamm is happy with either his gold medal after all the scandal that it caused, or with his silver for the high bar, for which he was booed).