kfw

Regardless of whether or not Croce's central point was valid, I've always thought that the best way for her to illustrate it would have been to go ahead and review the dance as dance theater" - to insist on her terms, and not what she saw as Jones'. The best way to say "this is not art" or "this is bad art" would have been to say that the specific work itself, not just the concept, failed as art.

Great topic. The article is available here. https://artpdf.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/croce-oates_crisis-of-criticism_1994.pdf

Thanks, indeed. Happy New Year, everyone, and my 2015 include lots of great dancing!

Al Green’s a soul and gospel singer, and hearing Sam Moore and Mavis Staple sing Take Me To the River was one of the highlights of the night for me. Same for “POTUS”’s imitation. But to each his own. I agree about the "bopping," heh. I almost wish David Byrne had joined them, but they probably would have blown him off the stage. I always want to like Lily Tomlin’s comedy since I like her so much, but most of it falls flat for me. Seeing Esperanza Spalding was a nice surprise, even though her singing’s not my thing. Sting is not my thing either, but I have to respect his songwriting, and Bruno Mars sounded amazingly like him. When is Garrison Keillor going to get a KC Honor? I thought Copeland was lovely and Peck was out of this world. I agree about Lovette, but then Rubies is a ballet for which I have an impossible ideal in my mind’s eye, so I’m often disappointed. But McBride and Bonnefous seemed to genuinely enjoy it all, which is the most important thing.

The Washington Post reports this morning that

Thanks for taking time to find and post those links, Kathleen. I've only received fundraising calls from NYCB, and I rarely donate, but they've always been polite. What I find rude is that telemarketers, doctor's and dentist's offices, and the like always ask for people by their first name, and don't even identify themselves first. I used to ask "do you know so-and-so?", but having learned to expect the inevitable, now I just say "who's calling please?"

Thanks, abatt. They put a lot of their lectures online, so we can hope to see this there eventually.

I just ran across Summers with George Balanchine, a short article Kendall published last year, with a two-minute clip of her speaking. In the article she describes taking a train from St. Petersburg and visiting the old dacha settlement in Finland, now called Zakhotskoe, where the Balanchines had a home. Having read the book, I’m also intrigued by three photos not included in it. One is of the handsome “Balanchivadze” home. Another is of the home’s wide, stone staircase, which is all that now remains. But my favorite, from the National Archives of Georgia, and all the more evocative for being blurry and faded, is a shot of Balanchine’s sister Tamara and two friends on a swing. It can be enlarged.

Given Martins' track record with story ballets, I'd prefer to see Mearns or Peck dance the ballet with another company. But if he did do Giselle, perhaps he'd commission Susan Tammany, who did his La Sylphide. Here's what Anna Kisselgoff wrote in the Times in 1985. I'm not sure it sounds any better than a Per Kirkeby set.

I know that Lauren Anderson and Tai Jimenez both danced as principals in major U.S. companies. That's good, because what you wrote is that I didn't explain myself very well. OK, thanks for clarifying. I've certainly made the same mistake sometimes.

I know that Lauren Anderson and Tai Jimenez both danced as principals in major U.S. companies. That's good, because what you wrote is that

Lauren Anderson made principal at Houston Ballet, Tapfan. (After all your opining you still haven’t bothered to inform yourself?) People much more knowledgeable than I think others should have been elevated to soloist or principal. Plenty of others, no doubt, if they'd had chances early on. If you have knowledge of wealthy donors who expect ballet to look like the Mariinsky in 1965, or reasons to think they do, I’m all ears. Otherwise, I'm sorry, but that's just reverse prejudice. But whenever I've ask you for knowledge or viewing experience, I've come up short.

Drew wrote: I agree and I think that's important to note. However, it seems to me that one assumption progressives hold is that minorities are always correct and right, and hence their self-described experiences should never be doubted. Hence to doubt them is not to have transcended, as you put it, racism in oneself. That’s an honorable impulse proceeding from empathy. But even though minorities unfortunately have to learn to look out for racism, being a minority individual doesn’t give one authoritative insight into what individual white people think. I don’t assume that, upon reflection, they would. My point is that, except for people who think that they themselves might have frowned upon Copeland’s career, taking her story on face value logically implies that they are. So if that’s not true, maybe the story is off too. I agree with both those sentences. I just wish the emphasis were on celebrating a black ballerina, like we celebrated a black president. Helene wrote: Do we not usually evaluate what people say? See above. Is the key word there “woman”? There is no proof on either side here. If a white male who was there was to speak up and say “it didn’t happen like that,” what kind of a reception do you think he’d get? What if he said, “in private discussions the people Copeland thinks were against her had doubts about this or that, but wanted her to succeed””"? Would he get a lot of sympathetic press, or would he be shouted down? Reasons make up an argument. I’ve given mine for why it rings not certainly untrue, but merits skepticism. I emphasize again that I’m not saying she’s lying.

“Mainstream” Republicans did flirt with the birther position in “mainstream forums.” As aurora and I pointed out earlier, the making of such “agreeable noises” would signify that an important voting bloc for their party required them. It would also mean that they were deliberately encouraging views they knew to be not only nutty and frivolous but detrimental to the legitimacy of the executive in the public eye, an executive who just happened to be a man of mixed race with a funny African name. Not to mention the nationwide distraction the birth certificate business proved to be. While this topic was on the front burner, some conservatives did attempt to point to the 9/11 Truthers as the Democratic equivalent of the birthers. The truthers started on the fringe and they have remained there. You did not see Democratic politicians and apparatchiks playing footsie with them or openly encouraging them. Some of you people spend a lot more time tracking birthers than I do. I'll take your word for it that some mainstream Republicans flirted with birtherism, but I've lost track of what that supposedly has to do with racism in ballet. Beyond that, I agree with what you say here. No. The problem is racism, and the question is how much of a problem it is. I didn't say talking about racism is racist. Yes indeed, the problem is racism. I was responding to your statement, quoted above, that personal stories about experiences of racism are “counterproductive,” influencing their auditors to exaggerate a problem that a) does not exist at all or b) isn’t really that big of a deal these days and that such "object lessons" are causing unnecessary and misleading trouble -- and are thus, presumably, contributing to the problem they describe..... Except of course that’s an oversimplification to the point of distortion of what I actually said. Try again if you like. I’ll help you. You could disagree with the premise in my first clause, upon which the rest of my argument hangs. Or you could accept the premise but say that stories of overcoming racism have a moral weight that makes it important to tell them no matter what. Or you could say that racism is still so bad in ballet companies that the value of preparing kids to face it outweighs the value of encouraging them by emphasizing instead the degree to which, racism having been stigmatized and hated, they'll likely get extra encouragement from many people precisely because they’re black. See, I’m making your arguments for you. All those are arguments I might not agree with, but that respond to what I actually said. Try working with them. Even try answering my questions.

“Mainstream” Republicans did flirt with the birther position in “mainstream forums.” As aurora and I pointed out earlier, the making of such “agreeable noises” would signify that an important voting bloc for their party required them. It would also mean that they were deliberately encouraging views they knew to be not only nutty and frivolous but detrimental to the legitimacy of the executive in the public eye, an executive who just happened to be a man of mixed race with a funny African name. Not to mention the nationwide distraction the birth certificate business proved to be. While this topic was on the front burner, some conservatives did attempt to point to the 9/11 Truthers as the Democratic equivalent of the birthers. The truthers started on the fringe and they have remained there. You did not see Democratic politicians and apparatchiks playing footsie with them or openly encouraging them. Some of you people spend a lot more time tracking birthers than I do. I'll take your word for it that some mainstream Republicans flirted with birtherism, but I've lost track of what that supposedly has to do with racism in ballet. Beyond that, I agree with what you say here. No. The problem is racism, and the question is how much of a problem it is. I didn't say talking about racism is racist.

Plisskin wrote: I see your point, but I’m not talking about a hypothetical black person, I’m talking about an exceptionally talented black dancer in a largely liberal (not a pejorative, I’m a lifelong Democrat who voted and canvassed for Obama twice) milieu. Yes, black females as well as males face racism (and again, I’m not pretending to know that Copeland never faced any, ever at ABT), but that doesn’t explain why males would succeed in a racist environment. Here, again, are some questions that indicate why I’m skeptical of Copeland’s perception. Why wouldn’t ADS promote out of empathy? Why wouldn’t ADs promote in their own financial interest? Isn’t the argument that the ballet world is rife with racism an argument that it’s morally inferior to people posting on this thread? How likely is that? Why would Americans embrace Cosby and Oprah but not a black ballerina? Isn’t Copeland proof America loves a black ballerina? Since black males are the most conspicuous victims of racism in society at large, doesn’t the success of Carlos Acosta, Craig Hall, and other male African-American dancers suggest the ballet world is, at least, far less racist, and for the most art welcoming? Kathleen O’Connell wrote: A good and fair question. One answer would be convincing answers to my questions above. But I’d say that while there is no question that African-American dancers have definitely been uniquely challenged, it’s also most likely that, more and more, their race is an advantage in many situations, for reasons I’ve tried to explain. When someone says, as Tapfan did, that the relative absence of black dancers make ballet look like some weird cult . . . that’s when I in turn ask for proof. Vipa wrote: Yes. Due to racism outside of the ballet world, many have lacked the money to see performances, take classes, and buy the necessary clothing. That has to be a huge factor in the racial complexion of what we see onstage. And the very fact that ballet has been seen as white and exclusive (and that, in an age when African-Americans proudly embrace their own cultural lineage, it’s roots are Russian and European) must have limited the numbers of aspiring black dancers. That seems happily inevitable to me, but I would also think that the more Copeland’s story is seen as a story of overcoming racism, the more girls will say “who needs it, I’ll go some place where I’ll be accepted.” ETA: Tapfan wrote: Having looked through the thread again, I see you you didn't. Sorry to have put words in your mouth.

Obama never encountered racism then, because he became President of the United States. That is your logic. No, that would follow from claiming Copeland never encountered racism anywhere, but not from doubting its significance at ABT. Obama had a whole country to appeal to, each with one vote apiece, not just a few powerful people at ABT who stood to benefit from her success. Another reason to doubt that racism continues to thwart the careers of talented dancers is the success of African-American male dancers. In society at large, towards who do we often see racism? Towards black males. So that’s where we’d most expect to find it in ballet.

Kathleen O'Connell wrote: They obviously have to be taken seriously, but perception isn’t always reality. I explicitly agreed that America is hardly a post-racial paradise. On the other hand, all the dancers alleging racism are African-American. How many hundreds of white dancers who came up the ranks with them and danced with them have now retired and cut ties with their companies and could speak out on their behalf without fear of retaliation? Copeland’s rank and opportunities seem to contradict what she believes she encountered. And for every DePrince and Ash there must be dozens of white dancers who feel they weren’t given opportunities they deserved. If you were an AD or a dance teacher, wouldn’t you support the careers and aspirations of black dancers, if not out of decency and empathy then out of common sense for the sake of the bottom line? So why wouldn’t Peter Martins, et al.?

Yes. At this point in the discussion, the more pertinent question is which black women you have seen dance ballet whom you feel should have advanced further than they have. Make your case for them based on what you’ve seen – if you can. You allege discrimination. Names please – if you have any. “Everyone knows black people are discriminated against, so dancers are too” is not an answer. No one disputes that they have been, but you allege that that are now. Perhaps so. Someone somewhere, no doubt, and that’s a terrible shame. But you imply widespread and systematic racism. Please demonstrate it based on personal knowledge. I'm not alleging anything. I'm asking a question. You're the one who's being defensive. I was asking because I honestly wanted to know if there were any other black women in senior positions. A name or two has been mentioned in this thread. A simple wikipedia search will find some.

Yes. At this point in the discussion, the more pertinent question is which black women you have seen dance ballet whom you feel should have advanced further than they have. Make your case for them based on what you’ve seen – if you can. You allege discrimination. Names please – if you have any. “Everyone knows black people are discriminated against, so dancers are too” is not an answer. No one disputes that they have been, but you allege that that are now. Perhaps so. Someone somewhere, no doubt, and that’s a terrible shame. But you imply widespread and systematic racism. Please demonstrate it based on personal knowledge.

It matters if people actually believe something or not. Someone who believes a racist fantasy is going to act in racist ways. Someone who just makes agreeable noises to get along is acting shamefully, but that doesn’t make them racist, or mean they’ll act it. (Then again, is birtherism always racism? The Tea Party would look for reasons to discredit a white Obama too. They’re no less kind, if less imaginative, about Reid and Pelosi). Most people do laugh at birthers. What mainstream pols take the birther position in mainstream forums? I think they’re going along to get along. Both sides court their fringes to gain power and keep it, and both sides play up the power and size of the other side’s fringes for political reasons as well. A country in which Cosby and Oprah are enormous stars (if Cosby was America’s Dad, Oprah was female America’s Best Friend), and which elects a black man twice, isn’t a post-racial paradise, no, but it’s surely willing to welcome a black ballerina – as Copeland is proving.

As I'm sure you know but some others may not, Robert Irving, longtime NYCB conductor under Balanchine, recorded the scores for Serenade, Agon, The Four Temperaments and Emeralds with the NYCB orchestra. The recording is still available.

Only up to a point, abatt. The reason the Administration finally gave in and released the long form birth certificate was because the topic would not go away (the flames fanned by the GOP) and it really was beginning to hurt him. My hunch is they may have been playing rope-a-dope, in addition to a natural reluctance to give in to the crazies, but they did it a little too long. And again, we're not talking only extremists, but mainstream elements within the political opposition. The Cosby show was a first 30 years ago, which was part of my point. And speaking of huge female African-American stars, Oprah, or so wikipedia tells me, goes back that far as well. In regards to those mainstream pols, do they actually doubt Obama's citizenship? Are they really nutty on the issue (probable evidence of racism) or are they just playing to the crowd that is?

And almost our governor. Not to disagree with your larger point, but while Cuccinelli could be considered mainstream because of his position, his views are not. He was, and even after the campaign remains, a Tea Party darling, someone most us think of as waaay out on the right. But then the center has shifted to the edges in both parties.

Leaving aside whether or not Copeland deserves promotion for her dancing - a subject I have no opinion on, not having seen her dance - what about a hypothetical soloist of any race who is getting lots of outside attention, who essentially has a fan club, and is selling lots of extra tickets because of it. For an AD, what are the ethics of promoting that dancer for the sake of his or her bottom line, and by extension, for the survival of the art form? Interesting that Copeland's Nutcracker shows sold out. Did they do any special advertising for those performances? Of course Copeland tweeting etc. about them might have been enough. I have no idea what KM will do in respect to making her a principal, but see no reason to promote her because she has outside attention. As a soloist getting cast in secondary roles and an occasional 1st principal role she can serve the function of being a ticket draw without being a principal dancer. True, although if that hypothetical dancer kept getting plenty of principal roles season after season, but not the promotion to principal, the AD's reasons would be obvious.