About Style and Aesthetics - Baryshnikov and Godunov

[California]

26 minutes ago, lmspear said:

This comment brought Charles Askegard to mind.  I remember he was 6'4" and danced with ABT under Baryshnikov and NYCB, under Martins. Where does he fit into this picture? I can't offer an opinion on him, he didn't stay in my long term memory.🥺

Aran Bell is 6'3" -- doesn't seem to be hurting his performances.

https://pointemagazine.com/catherine-hurlin-aran-bell-abt/#gsc.tab=0

[On Pointe]

3 hours ago, California said:

Aran Bell is 6'3" -- doesn't seem to be hurting his performances.

https://pointemagazine.com/catherine-hurlin-aran-bell-abt/#gsc.tab=0

Aran Bell is young.  Physical therapy for ballet is more advanced now than when D'Amboise and Martins were dancing.  But moving a big body will always be hard.  Russell Janzen is also 6'3" and he recently retired at the age of 34.  Here's what he said in the New York Times:

"Ballet is punishing on most every body, but at 6-foot-3 I am not compact. My height and length can look impressive onstage, but my body doesn’t always absorb the impact of dancing and partnering well, making me — and my spine especially — susceptible to injury and strain."

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/20/arts/dance/dancer-retirement-new-york-city-ballet.html

 

[Meliss]

I think Baryshnikov, with his 5.6 inches, had more injuries than Godunov with 6.2.

[Meliss]

Sania Davlekamova, ballet critic 1979. "The concept of two schools -Leningrad and Moscow - is now retrospective. Nevertheless, Moscow expression and catchy effects prevail in male modern dance. The art of A. Godunov is determined by the laws of Harmony. Energy is ennobled by purity of form, but grace is devoid of willlessness... Motorism, accentuation has been defeated by dancing, the most important property, but it is not so common now in ballet, especially in men's dance. Godunov's expressive impulse and the sophistication of the academic canon live in harmony. The beauty of the lines, the completeness of the form with the most virtuosic technique in all the "registers" - this is his dance, which reveals the synthesis of two historical ballet styles..."

[Meliss]

On 6/20/2024 at 6:26 AM, Fraildove said:

The stretch of the feet and legs, high Demi-pointe, placement of the foot in passe, etc would not hold up today.

Is there fashion in ballet?

[Drew]

2 hours ago, Meliss said:

Is there fashion in ballet?

I don’t know if fashion is the right word, but there are stylistic and technical shifts of emphasis. When I first started attending ballet performances in the 60’s —as a child—super high extensions from ballerinas were a rarity and might be considered merely acrobatic or vulgar, but increasingly they are a norm and ballerinas whose extensions are quite sufficient for ordinary ballet technique get criticized for not being more flexible. A lot of fans do not like this change, but it does seem a real change—though maybe more in some companies than others. 

[volcanohunter]

It's definitely true that the passé position has gotten higher as well. (Though I remember photos of the POB tour to New York in 1986, where a lot of the ballerinas were placing their foot halfway up the thigh. And not crossing the thigh the way Russians do it, but holding the toe next to thigh. It boggled my mind. ) I think it's the only feature of Baryshnikov's dancing that doesn't look entirely up-to-date after all these years.

Edited July 16 by volcanohunter

[Meliss]

14 hours ago, volcanohunter said:

And not crossing the thigh the way Russians do it, but holding the toe next to thigh. It boggled my mind.

☺️

No one has proved which position in a particular ballet is more appropriate.

[nanushka]

3 hours ago, Meliss said:

☺️

No one has proved which position in a particular ballet is more appropriate.

Style and skill are not the same things. And the appropriateness of a fashion could never be proven.

[lmspear]

4 hours ago, Meliss said:

☺️

No one has proved which position in a particular ballet is more appropriate.

It is up to the viewer to judge which version they prefer.

[Helene]

Both Nureyev and Baryshnikov caused a seismic shift in technical standards in the West.  Christopher Gable, for one, describes Nureyev’s impact on the men at Royal Ballet in his chapter in Barbara Newman’s book, Striking a Balance.  Baryshnikov’s influence is seen to the last young man in the bottom of his preprofessional class at graduation, one who will never dance professionally full time.  Anyone in the top half of their class, at minimum, is far more accomplished technically than Godunov was in his prime, but that is true of the bottom of the class of men at any branch of the Bolshoi Academy, and had he been in school in the recent past, he either would have had the technique of current company standards, or he would have been dropped early. with so many kids theses day with both the technique and the style.

If you look at dancers’ technique today, you can see the influence of Nureyev and Baryshnikov.  You will not see the influences of Godunov, in the West: his technique and style were from two generations ago, and by the 00’s, the last time I saw the Bolshoi regularly, the Bolshoi men’s dancing did not look like his.

Technique certainly drives aesthetics, because when nearly everyone can do six pirouettes on a high arch with the foot at the knee, compared to Eglevsky’s ten pirouettes at high speed crossed at the ankle, choreographers and coaches demand that.  Baryshnikov could do that in the ‘70’s.  Godunov could not, and his technique looks of its time.

When it comes to appreciation of aesthetic aspects across time, that is personal.  I would rather watch Kolpakova’s Aurora and Raymonda on film than any of the Kirov/Mariinsky ballerinas I’ve seen live, although I very much loved Tereshkina. I’d rather watch the limited films of Soloviev than Nureyev, because I find them aesthetically pleasing.  I’m glad I saw Godunov dance, because, with rare exception, I’d rather see five dancers dance a role than five performances by one dancer. I never loved Godunov’s style of dancing, and seeing him live never convinced me to make an exception, or that the trade off of stage presence vs. technique was world seeking him out more, which I most certainly have where a dancer’s movement quality was more important to me than technical quality. 

But that's me, and I understand why other people have their own preferences.

 

 

[On Pointe]

What's fascinating to me is the great dancers of the past whose style and technique don't look dated.  For example,  Olga Spessitsiva compared to Tamara Karsavina and Anna Pavlova.  There isn't much of a film record of any of these dancers,  but what exists shows stark differences.  Yvette Chauviré and Erik Bruhn also look contemporary to my eyes while other dancers of their time do not. 

Godunov's style looks dated,  but there were Soviet contemporaries with far better technique irrespective of style,  such as Soloviev and Vassiliev and a bit earlier,  the very refined Maris Liepa.  It could be that Godunov never reached his full potential in the west,  distracted by the notoriety of his defection.

[Helene]

There are never too many mentions of Maris Liepa for me, and I appreciate every one of them.

[Meliss]

5 hours ago, nanushka said:

Style and skill are not the same things. And the appropriateness of a fashion could never be proven.

That's exactly what I meant. So comments like these - "The stretch of the feet and legs, high Demi-pointe, placement of the foot in passe, etc would not hold up today"- seem strange to me.

[Meliss]

5 hours ago, lmspear said:

It is up to the viewer to judge which version they prefer.

I think most viewers are not focused on such minor details.

[Helene]

They would not hold up today because they would look out of place, especially since nearly all professional dancers start out in the corps, where there is some requirement for conformity among fellow corps members.  He would be expected to dance to the technical standards and stylistic demands of his peers.

There are dancers who look of their times, for better or worse, and sometimes that speaks to us as individuals.  Others appear timeless and/or future-facing.  Godunov does neither, and whether that is good or bad depends on the eyes watching him.  Were he dancing today, it would be the Artistic Directors' eyes that mattered.

Some people's pebbles are other people's boulders.  There might be ways of quantifying this, but I don't know of any that have been applied in Godunov's case.  Whether people see details or care about technical flaws is individual.  I think fouettes make artistic sense in very few cases -- like Hippolyta whipping up the elements in Balanchine's A Midsummer Night's Dream -- and that the rest are circus tricks.  If a ballerina falls off point or veers to one side on number 24, I wouldn't even mention it if I were writing about it, because I simply don't care.  If I saw a Principal Dancer with Godunov's qualities dancing today in my local company, I would wonder what Peter Boal was thinking and probably conclude that he couldn't find another tall man at short notice to partner his tall ballerinas.

 

[Meliss]

2 hours ago, Helene said:

If you look at dancers’ technique today, you can see the influence of Nureyev and Baryshnikov.  You will not see the influences of Godunov, in the West: his technique and style were from two generations ago

Can you please name the main differences between their styles? And also explain how their technique is superior to Godunov's?

2 hours ago, Helene said:

nearly everyone can do six pirouettes on a high arch with the foot at the knee, compared to Eglevsky’s ten pirouettes at high speed crossed at the ankle, choreographers and coaches demand that.  Baryshnikov could do that in the ‘70’s.  Godunov could not, and his technique looks of its time

And in which ballet should a dancer do 10 pirouettes? Godunov actually did 13, but in class.

[Meliss]

2 hours ago, Helene said:

Technique certainly drives aesthetics, because when nearly everyone can do six pirouettes on a high arch with the foot at the knee, compared to Eglevsky’s ten pirouettes at high speed crossed at the ankle, choreographers and coaches demand that.  Baryshnikov could do that in the ‘70’s.  Godunov could not, and his technique looks of its time.

In her book Maya Plisetskaya wrote about Godunov: "Alexander Godunov was mighty, proud, tall. A sheaf of straw-colored hair, which made him look like a Scandinavian, blazed in the wind of Godunov's unique pirouette." And Plisetskaya understood ballet, didn't she?

[Meliss]

2 hours ago, On Pointe said:

Godunov's style looks dated,  but there were Soviet contemporaries with far better technique irrespective of style,  such as Soloviev and Vassiliev and a bit earlier,  the very refined Maris Liepa. 

I'm afraid I didn't understand that statement. What about the style of Vasiliev and Liepa? Was it outdated or not?

[Fraildove]

Vasiliev’s and Liepa’s technique were more polished than Godunov. Again style is different. All three danced in the Bolshoi style but with more refinement of technique than Godunov. 
 

Plisetskaya, who has always been one of my favorites was also speaking from her own generation of dancers. While I loved her intensity she is another dancer who would not fit in modern day companies. But someone who danced around the same time but that is younger than Plistkaya, Nadzhda Pavlova, absolutely would.

[Meliss]

6 hours ago, Fraildove said:

 

Plisetskaya, who has always been one of my favorites was also speaking from her own generation of dancers. While I loved her intensity she is another dancer who would not fit in modern day companies.

The book "I, Maya Plisetskaya" was published in 1994.  How can the Art of the greatest ballet dancers become outdated?? So Shakespeare will soon become obsolete).

[Meliss]

8 hours ago, Helene said:

There are dancers who look of their times, for better or worse, and sometimes that speaks to us as individuals.  Others appear timeless and/or future-facing.  Godunov does neither, and whether that is good or bad depends on the eyes watching him. 

 

"Godunov's expressive impulse and the sophistication of the academic canon live in harmony. The beauty of the lines, the completeness of the form with the most virtuosic technique in all the "registers" - this is his dance". S.Davlekamova, a ballet critic.

"Years pass, new performers appear, but the scale of Godunov's figure for those who saw him on stage is becoming more significant, because as a dancer he possessed three qualities that are almost never found at the same time: boundless virtuosity combined with the harmony and beauty of lines and a subtle and very modern acting personality."  V.Sedov, a director.

 

[lmspear]

17 minutes ago, Meliss said:

So Shakespeare will soon become obsolete.

The Bard hasn't produced any new work for several hundred years. The plays were performed by all male cast in costumes of the Elizabethan era.  Future generations adapted the plays, acting styles, and stagings to suit themselves.

 

[volcanohunter]

9 hours ago, Meliss said:

 

No one has proved which position in a particular ballet is more appropriate.

Try it. Stand in front of a full length mirror and turn your straight legs out from the hips. Bend and lift your right leg until your pointed big toe is placed next to the knee of your left leg, but without raising the right hip. It's very difficult. But the higher the foot goes, and when the toe is closer to the inside of the leg, the more objectively difficult it is to do, and the greater the technical skill required to do it.

Likewise, rising very high onto the ball of the foot is objectively more difficult than barely raising the heel off the floor.

[Meliss]

4 minutes ago, lmspear said:

The Bard hasn't produced any new work for several hundred years. The plays were performed by all male cast in costumes of the Elizabethan era.  Future generations adapted the plays, acting styles, and stagings to suit themselves.

 

And then there's Venus de Milo. Has anyone thought to stick her hands on yet?)