Male dance

[Meliss]

I have read somewhere that Spartacus is really the pinnacle of male dance, and American critics have recognized this. During the tour of the Bolshoi Ballet in the USA in 2005,  it was summed up that none of the current and past ABT dancers would ever have coped with the male parts from this ballet.

What do you think?

Edited July 6 by Meliss

[Drew]

I am comfortable saying that Spartacus is one pinnacle of male dance —even THE pinnacle within the Soviet tradition— but I would never say that it is the pinnacle of all male classical dancing. There are a lot of mountains to climb in classical ballet and some call for very different abilities. Dancers trained in the Soviet tradition or trained by dancers who grew up in that tradition would be more likely to be effective in Spartacus, certainly, than those trained in other traditions. 

It is all sort of speculative as dancers can surprise one, but I think one American dancer who, if he had been properly coached in the part, might have been effective in it is Richard Cragun who spent much of his dancing career with the Stuttgart Ballet, but did appear as a guest artist with ABT partnering Gelsey Kirkland in Nutcracker. He had a tremendous powerful jump, a strong masculine presence on stage, and was a fantastic partner and experienced dance-actor of great charisma. Perhaps the choreographic tradition would have been too different from what he knew. But I would have been interested to see him give the role a try.  However, he was no regular with ABT—just appeared a few times—so I guess it is cheating to give him as my answer! 

Regular ABT male dancers as Spartacus? Perhaps Julio Bocca. I think he had the temperament for it —plus a powerful jump. Cornejo at the height of his career (post 2005) only lacked the right body type. 

About body type:  when Ivan Vasiliev was cast as Spartacus I was surprised because he seemed too short for the role, but then I saw him in London and he was great. With that performance in mind, I think Baryshnilov also could have made an impression in the role. Though I wasn’t sure you would include him as an ABT principal.
 

 

Edited July 6 by Drew

[lmspear]

I think Ethan Stiefel would could have had a great success with Spartacus.

[Meliss]

3 hours ago, Drew said:

I am comfortable saying that Spartacus is one pinnacle of male dance —even THE pinnacle within the Soviet tradition— but I would never say that it is the pinnacle of all male classical dancing. There are a lot of mountains to climb in classical ballet and some call for very different abilities. Dancers trained in the Soviet tradition or trained by dancers who grew up in that tradition would be more likely to be effective in Spartacus, certainly, than those trained in other traditions. 

It is all sort of speculative as dancers can surprise one, but I think one American dancer who, if he had been properly coached in the part, might have been effective in it is Richard Cragun who spent much of his dancing career with the Stuttgart Ballet, but did appear as a guest artist with ABT partnering Gelsey Kirkland in Nutcracker. He had a tremendous powerful jump, a strong masculine presence on stage, and was a fantastic partner and experienced dance-actor of great charisma. Perhaps the choreographic tradition would have been too different from what he knew. But I would have been interested to see him give the role a try.  However, he was no regular with ABT—just appeared a few times—so I guess it is cheating to give him as my answer! 

Regular ABT male dancers as Spartacus? Perhaps Julio Bocca. I think he had the temperament for it —plus a powerful jump. Cornejo at the height of his career (post 2005) only lacked the right body type. 

About body type:  when Ivan Vasiliev was cast as Spartacus I was surprised because he seemed too short for the role, but then I saw him in London and he was great. With that performance in mind, I think Baryshnilov also could have made an impression in the role. Though I wasn’t sure you would include him as an ABT principal.
 

 

Thank you, it's very interesting.  What about Bujones? As for Baryshnikov, I just can't imagine him in this role. Can your name any of his heroical roles?

1 hour ago, lmspear said:

I think Ethan Stiefel would could have had a great success with Spartacus.

Thank you. And is there any role that is more difficult, in your opinion?

Edited July 6 by Meliss

[Fraildove]

Baryshnikov dance Solor in Bayadere… it’s also an heroic role but with less acrobatics.

[Meliss]

2 hours ago, Fraildove said:

Baryshnikov dance Solor in Bayadere… it’s also an heroic role but with less acrobatics.

Thank you. Do you think this role is more difficult technically than Spartacus?

[Fraildove]

I think the roles are vastly different. I was a natural turner and jumper so doing double fouettés and multiple attitude turns was very easy for me. Adagio movement came harder. For more naturally inclined adagio dancers, what I did could be mind boggling but they could seemingly without effort lift their legs to their ears. Is one harder? To the other dancer absolutely. So for dancers that might not be muscularly as built in the arms and shoulders, the acrobatic lifts in Spartacus would be extremely hard. For those that struggled with refinement in technique and elegance, Solor would be considered harder. In my personal opinion, from having watched both ballets (Bayadere by multiple companies and having performed Gamzetti myself, I consider Solor overall more difficult because it is Petipa. Spartacus is insanely hard in the tricks department but the sheer power, dramatic, and theatrical requirements of Spartacus can often let dancers get away with less than perfect technique. Not true in Bayadere. 

[Helene]

Since touring to NYC is a rarity for other US companies, and until Alastair Macaulay started to travel regularly to see other companies in the US, which would have been after 2005, the "critics" wouldn't have know about the great technicians and dramatic male dancers that could have taken on the roles and danced them extremely well.  The harder part in 2005 would have been finding a male corps who could, but there are multiple companies now who could field those dancers.

As far as technical demands are concerned, Villella could easily have met those demands when he was dancing, which wasn't in 2005.  Woetzel was, but NYC people would have to weigh in on how he was dancing technically in his last few years.  Out here, Jonathan Poretta easily could have.  He and James Moore both performed Melissa Fenley's solo, State of Darkness, which was the full length of the Rite of Spring.  He also is the greatest character dancer I've ever seen live:  Carabosse, Grandfather in Nucracker, Sancho Panza, and Ganache in Ratmansky's Don Quixote, a performance for the ages.  They probably would be considered too short.

I don't know if any of them had any interest in dancing in Spartacus.

I liked Liepa in the DVD.

Edited to add:  It also depends on how you define technical difficulty and what you value.  It's not just about the height of the jumps and the number of turns fpr everyone.  For me, the height of difficulty is what Thomas Lund demonstrated in the Bournonville School exercises, and the effortless way that he danced James in La Sylphide.  Give me perfect double tours, one set in one direction immediately going to a second set in the opposite direction, and my jaw will drop.

[Drew]

7 hours ago, Meliss said:

Thank you, it's very interesting.  What about Bujones? As for Baryshnikov, I just can't imagine him in this role. Can your name any of his heroical ?

I didn’t see Bujones that much at the height of his career and I never thought of him as a great actor. In my memory (which is incomplete) he had a kind of natural arrogance in his manner and a certain elegance in his line that made him a likelier Crassus than Spartacus. But hard for me to say….I feel that Grigorovich’s choreography calls for power. 

Picturing dancers in the role? I couldn’t picture Ivan Vasiliev as Spartacus until I actually saw him dance the role. That is what made me think of Baryshnilov. The choreography and more general aesthetic Baryshnilov pursued in the West was mostly not in the heroic vein  though as @fraildove mentioned he danced Solor. And he was always great in roles that called for a certain irony that is very different from what Grigorovich demands though they were plenty difficult (Rhapsody, PushComes to Shove). Still, he did regularly show he could dance with power and intensity, even if  later in his career he didn’t always turn it on. When I first saw him dance Albrecht, his brisés had an emotional fierceness and speed I have never seen any other dancer approach. I am not saying Spartacus would have been a natural role for him—and all of this is just speculation anyway—but had his career been a different one, he had abilities that might, with the right preparation, have made him effective in the role. 

(Baryshnikov was never my favorite male dancer—I was mad for Anthony Dowell who (except for the acting) would have looked completely out of place in Spartacus, but is still unequalled in the quicksilver choreography created for him by Ashton and, as my mother used to say, REALLY looked as if he were gazing in wonder at swans flying across the sky at the end of the opening scene in Swan Lake—but it would be a mistake to under-rate Baryshnikov’s accomplishments and abilities as a dancer.)

Who among today’s Bolshoi dancers do you like in the role? In London in 2019, I saw a performance with Rodkin as Spartacus, but the dancer who dazzled me much more at that performance was Belyakov as Crassus. He was just brilliant.

Edited July 6 by Drew

[volcanohunter]

I am unwilling to trade in superlatives and have never come across a serious critical argument that the role of Spartacus is a pinnacle of male dancing. 

It's a role that demands large jumps, grand pirouettes and fouettés, great upper body strength and enormous, almost superhuman stamina.

There are many aspects of ballet technique that are absent from it, including elegance, refinement, concealment of effort and strain, speed, batterie, changes in spatial orientation, shifts between en avant and en arrière or dessous and dessus, épaulement, turnout and fifth positions.

By the time Grigorovich was pushed out of office, one of the complaints about the Bolshoi was that the company spent so much time dancing his big, thumpingly macho ballets, that many of the fine points of ballet technique had been lost.

Edited July 6 by volcanohunter
misplaced preposition

[Fraildove]

34 minutes ago, volcanohunter said:

By the time Grigorovich was pushed out of office, one of the complaints about the Bolshoi was that the company spent so much time dancing his big, thumpingly macho ballets, that many of the fine points of ballet technique had been lost.

This! And I think this summarizes why (or at least a major contributor) the differences between the Bolshoi men and the Kirov/Mariinsky men because so apparent in the west, where often times the Bolshoi style of masculinity on stage was uncomfortable and foreign to a more conservative stylistically audience. The difference between Solovieva, Baryshnikov, Zaklinsky, and Ruzimatov had a finesse that was missing in many of the Bolshoi Principals of the 1960’s through the late 1980’s. But the Bolshoi men had a magnetism and charisma that was tamgible. Each company was so unique and I think it also speaks to why so many are sad that the lines between the two companies are blurring with more and more Vaganova grads are being hired and promoted at the Bolshoi, as the former Mariinsky director is now the AD. It’s why I cannot compare Baryshnikov and Godunov. It’s truly apples and oranges and is truly a matter of taste and what one holds as important in the dancers and styles the prefer.

[Helene]

1 hour ago, volcanohunter said:

By the time Grigorovich was pushed out of office, one of the complaints about the Bolshoi was that the company spent so much time dancing his big, thumpingly macho ballets, that many of the fine points of ballet technique had been lost.

Similarly with Macmillan and his work taking over the Royal Ballet, and Royal Ballet dancers not having the technical ability or style to dance Ashton properly anymore.  I think the same would have been true if the Robbins rep had overtaken Balanchine's, and that had spilled into SAB training.  Thankfully, that didn't happen.

1 hour ago, Drew said:

I was mad for Anthony Dowell who (except for the acting) would have looked completely out of place in Spartacus, but is still unequalled in the quicksilver choreography created for him by Ashton

This is another great example of impossibly difficult work danced to its peak.

[volcanohunter]

25 minutes ago, Helene said:

This is another great example of impossibly difficult work danced to its peak.

At both ends of the speedometer.

Both solos make technical demands that are completely absent from Spartacus. 

[Helene]

Thank you for posting those, @volcanohunter .

[Marta]

Thank you for these excerpts, @volcanohunter.  The Sleeping Beauty  variation is gorgeous.

[Helene]

I was thinking earlier tonight that Cuban National Ballet had the men to dance Spartacus.  Then I remembered that  Osiel Gouneo (also spelled Gounod)  had left Cuba to dance In Norway and then with Bayerisches Staatsoper, only to learn that he'd danced Sparatacus there, in the same run as Polunin and Shklyarov in 2019:

https://www.gramilano.com/2019/04/photo-album-osiel-gouneo-as-spartacus-with-the-bayerisches-staatsballett/

[Meliss]

16 hours ago, Fraildove said:

Spartacus is insanely hard in the tricks department but the sheer power, dramatic, and theatrical requirements of Spartacus can often let dancers get away with less than perfect technique. Not true in Bayadere. 

Thank you. "Insanely hard" - that's the right expression. It's a pity we can't compare Baryshnikov's Solor to Godunov's.

[Fraildove]

Again, because of the style and aesthetic differences you would be comparing apples to oranges and the two would have vastly different interpretations. As far as difficulty for Spartacus, tricks and acrobatics are difficult but for most dancers as well as teachers those difficulties are not classical ballet. It’s more Aiken to gymnastics and circus tricks. Don’t get me wrong I enjoy Bolshoi’s Spartacus with the right dancer. But for me it is 100% not the pinnacle of male ballet. A perfectly executed Prince from sleeping beauty act 3, or an incredible interpretation of Siegfried in Swan Lake is, to me, a much truer measure of a classical dancer than Spartacus. 

[Meliss]

17 hours ago, Helene said:

  Give me perfect double tours, one set in one direction immediately going to a second set in the opposite direction, and my jaw will drop.

Thanks a lot. Can we see this in the video?

[Meliss]

14 hours ago, Drew said:

I didn’t see Bujones that much at the height of his career and I never thought of him as a great actor. In my memory (which is incomplete) he had a kind of natural arrogance in his manner and a certain elegance in his line that made him a likelier Crassus than Spartacus. But hard for me to say….I feel that Grigorovich’s choreography calls for power. 

Picturing dancers in the role? I couldn’t picture Ivan Vasiliev as Spartacus until I actually saw him dance the role. That is what made me think of Baryshnilov. The choreography and more general aesthetic Baryshnilov pursued in the West was mostly not in the heroic vein  though as @fraildove mentioned he danced Solor. And he was always great in roles that called for a certain irony that is very different from what Grigorovich demands though they were plenty difficult (Rhapsody, PushComes to Shove). Still, he did regularly show he could dance with power and intensity, even if  later in his career he didn’t always turn it on. When I first saw him dance Albrecht, his brisés had an emotional fierceness and speed I have never seen any other dancer approach. I am not saying Spartacus would have been a natural role for him—and all of this is just speculation anyway—but had his career been a different one, he had abilities that might, with the right preparation, have made him effective in the role. 

(Baryshnikov was never my favorite male dancer—I was mad for Anthony Dowell who (except for the acting) would have looked completely out of place in Spartacus, but is still unequalled in the quicksilver choreography created for him by Ashton and, as my mother used to say, REALLY looked as if he were gazing in wonder at swans flying across the sky at the end of the opening scene in Swan Lake—but it would be a mistake to under-rate Baryshnikov’s accomplishments and abilities as a dancer.)

Who among today’s Bolshoi dancers do you like in the role? In London in 2019, I saw a performance with Rodkin as Spartacus, but the dancer who dazzled me much more at that performance was Belyakov as Crassus. He was just brilliant.

Thank you. Rodkin is not bad. But after Godunov, no dancer in the role of Spartacus really impresses. https://vk.com/id26237357?z=video-221123399_456239089%2Facb8cb98c2d9470542%2Fpl_wall_26237357

Edited July 7 by Meliss

[Mashinka]

13 hours ago, Helene said:

Royal Ballet dancers not having the technical ability or style to dance Ashton properly anymore. 

Horribly apparent in the recent run of the Dream.

[Helene]

3 hours ago, Meliss said:

Thanks a lot. Can we see this in the video?

No, it was not televised or filmed.  

[On Pointe]

15 hours ago, Helene said:

Similarly with Macmillan and his work taking over the Royal Ballet, and Royal Ballet dancers not having the technical ability or style to dance Ashton properly anymore. 

When I first started watching the Royal Ballet,  Antoinette Sibley and Anthony Dowell were considered the epitome as far as dancing Ashton was concerned.  But back then,  they were English roses in a company made up almost entirely of English dancers,  with a few Scots and South Africans thrown in the mix.  Today's Royal is an international ensemble made up of dancers from around the world who did not train at the Royal Ballet School from childhood.  Most of the Royal's principal dancers are not English.  There is a definite English quality to Ashton's work (even though he grew up in South America).  It must be difficult to convey that essence and style to foreigners,  even if they made it a priority,  and there's little evidence that that is the case under their current direction.

[Helene]

When Macmillan began to gain power and influence, the “He’s so modern, unlike the stodgy old Ashton,” meme, the company was still British + Commonwealth , and trained by the school.  The complaints about the degradation of the technique started back before the company was allowed to hire dancers from the rest of the world.

Lynn Seymour was great friends with Marcia Haydee when she was a student at the Royal Ballet school. When she wrote home to her mother about her new friend, one quoted in her memoir, she said that Haydee knew she could never join the Royal Ballet, because she was not from the Commonwealth.  That would have changed ballet history if she had been allowed to be hired.

i think it was the EU or EU predecessor rules that allowed the Royal Ballet to hire European dancers, and extended to beyond Europe even before Brexit.

[volcanohunter]

1 hour ago, Helene said:

i think it was the EU or EU predecessor rules that allowed the Royal Ballet to hire European dancers, and extended to beyond Europe even before Brexit.

Yes, Alessandra Ferri, who trained in Milan and the RB Upper School, was the first to be hired under the new rules in 1980. She became a principal quickly, but left for ABT almost as quickly.  That didn't stop the Royal Ballet from continuing to hire foreign graduates of the school. 

The year after Ferri joined ABT, Cynthia Harvey went in the opposite direction and joined the Royal Ballet, albeit briefly. By then Dowell, who had danced with Harvey at ABT, albeit briefly, had become the Royal Ballet's director.