grace

the RB video is called "The film of the Royal Ballet" 1960 - Colour produced and directed by paul czinner. it has lac act 2, firebird and ondine. firebird: fonteyn, ivan, michael somes; tsarevna, rosemary lindsay (who?!); kostchei, franklin white (likewise...). this was originally a film (not video). this firebird is fairly regularly trotted out by RB. firebird, i believe, is also one of those fokine works which isabella fokine staged a production of...can look this up if you need me to...

i wrote this post before i had seen that we are on to page 2, therefore it is a bit of a 'throwback'. NOT intended to change the subject, yet again. sorry!:- i've never seen it (the seven stories) written down in vaganova's translated writings, but i'm sure vrsfanatic could enlighten us. obviously some people who were trained in this way DO regard it as a vaganova 'thing' - judging from those bulgarian conversations. i HAVE used this imagery, of course - but never 'from' vaganova. i would have imagined i got it from much more modern kinesiology, or even from someone like laban - not that it matters where i got it!

oh, OK. thanks. i was thinking of 'stories' as in 'tales to tell' - but i still never heard this about vaganova, before.

cannot comment on j.homans, but after reading this thread have 3 responses: 1. dance critics in australia - FOR NEWSPAPERS - are almost always journalists, perhaps with some connection to dance in their past/youth, but not a current connection (apart from reviewing). 2. a friend of mine, who i regard as the most interesting (i.e. the "best, in a way) dance reviewer i read regularly (her name is Naomi Millett), DOESN'T know much about dance at all - her background is in music (as a performer, and in communications in general: radio and so on). i find her descriptions, for example, far better than mine - which seems to be something to do with her UNfamiliarity with what she is seeing, and also something to do with how she sees things, and especially with her skill as a writer. 3. alexandra, i don't know about 'Vaganova's Seven Stories' - please tell? (maybe a new thread?)

Manhattnik: "I'd start casting the male/male versions of all the classic old chestnuts"... - let's DO it! and about bolero (bejart's): i never even thought of the fact, before now, that he never offered a female object of desire for a female 'audience' - or did he?

speaking of explaining, could you amplify about the mothers-in-law, manhattnik? i didn't 'get' that bit...

hope the vacuuming got done... manhattnik writes: "It's no more odd than that Broadway-musical world where people alternately talk and sing..." i somehow can't agree that "it's no more odd". not for rational reasons, but only because i can't STAND musicals, on account of that very perversity, of bursting into song innappropriately (it IS innappropriate, to me)...yet i don't have this feeling with most narrative dance. please don't ask me to explain - i'd rather clean the house...am feeling intellectually lazy, these days.

your thinking matches mine, mel.

if it helps, i have a copy of a slim book published in new york in 1925. its title: "Choreographic Compositions by Michel Fokine" "The Dying Swan" (that title would imply that it was intended to be part of a series, but i have never seen any others.) the subtitle is "Detailed Description of the Dance by Michel Fokine", "Thirty-Six Photographs from Poses by Vera Fokina" it is indeed a DETAILED description: fantastic stuff! i treasure it, even though it is only a photocopy of an original. in this book, under the initial heading "The Dying Swan", fokine writes: "As I begin the publication of one of my first creations, the dance called "The Dying Swan", I am fully aware of how difficult it is to express in words the beauty of movement of the human body. Nevertheless, I wish to record this dance and by all possible means make clear its composition, its technique and plan. It was long ago, when I was a young artist in Petrograd, that this dream was first realised and this vision first produced. And during almost twenty years I have witnessed in all parts of the world a thousand interpretations and imitations by artists and amateurs, trying to express this vision, or visualise this dream." further down, he writes: " 'The Dying Swan' was composed and staged in Petrograd in 1905." and then "...was a great success and from that evening 'The Dying Swan' became the favorite number in the repertoire of Mme Pavlova." of course, this doesn't 'prove' anything at all about the original title. i am merely offering what i've got. the music score (which appears in the book) is here titled "The Swan (Le Cygne)", Copyright 1925. (tired sigh, for whomever. yes, yes - i DO know you're not supposed to photocopy music scores ....but i DID, OK?)

i 'believe in' NOT reading a story or explanation first, because i want the dance to speak to me of its own accord/to stand on its own feet. also, as a reviewer, this is valuable, because it enables more objective assessment, IMO. (i also prefer not to know who choreograohed which ballet - on a triple bill, for instance - for the same reasons, of objectivity. but advance publicity usually makes this almost impossible.) i believe i see everything that happens onstage as part of one thing - in other words, i expect the dances to blend in with any 'acting' sections, and the whole to make sense, and nothing to be superfluous...but then, i DO have high standards... ;) on first viewing of a narrative ballet, i am certainly feeling a need to follow the story, more or less - but not to pick up every detail of it. just enough for it to make sense. but more than anything, i think i am 'seeing' choreography/shapes/dynamics/relation to music...

oh dear. now i understand you (on both points).

you're quick on the draw today, farrell fan! nice to 'meet' you.

thanks alexandra - i WAS interested in the 'NEW angle'. you wrote "I don't know how the Ashton ballets are guarded." i'm sure you do. ashton willed ballets to various people who he trusted with them. michael somes got symphonic. therefore, since somes' death, wendy ellis (somes' partner) is in charge of it. haven't seen those pics you mention.

"Perhaps nothing was hidden, but much lay necessarily unrevealed. " (Farrell Fan) i read this (past tense) as 'Perhaps nothing was hidden, but much lay UNnecessarily REVEALED.' ;) thought you might find that funny...as i did. (yes, i HAVE read the book.)

serenade: when they turn their feet out. fille: lots of moments: the mime scene, the fouette's sautes en cloches by lise in her solo, the final pas de deux, and when (IF) they really SING as they all go off. nutcracker: when the tree grows (if it does), the snow scene (if well done), and when the choir comes in (if it does). bayadere shades i better stop - i'm getting too general and predictable.

sorry to be so dim-witted, but how does this subject matter relate to it's thread title? it's not what i expected, when i came in here - but obviously interesting, nonetheless. could someone please explain what i am not getting...

a friend in london was just telling me yesterday, that teddy kumakawa's company has the rights to dance symphonic - they've been coached by wendy ellis (somes' partner), and have performed it. apparently viviana durante was one of the women (she, of course, had already performed it with RB). i hadn't heard about this before (you probably have a thread about it, that i haven't seen!). it surprised me to think of such a 'special' work being performed outside the confines of a large classical company setting...i haven't SEEN it, so i can't make any comment, but i was rather startled that it had happened.

now that i've seen the newer posts: i do believe those kinds of descriptions ARE in beaumont's books (i am too lazy to check - but it sounds right to me), however, while i love that kind of observation myself, i always took it to be BEAUMONT'S analysis, not his reporting of petipa's intentions...you know, i just assumed that this is the way HE sees it - and it's marvellous, and revelatory analysis...but it MAY be just HIS view...

"I certainly never think of Serenade as a Lesbian gang meeting." (Alexandra) :eek: :( :confused: sorry - i posted this before my page refreshed, to show me that the discussion has moved on...

personally, i think whether or not a ballet class is aerobic often depends on the class/the teacher (and also, sometimes, the student's attitude/commitment/participation level)... in my experience, company class is often more aerobic than teaching/training classes. (and of course, following class with rehearsals is far more likely to become an aerobic challenge).

thanks dirac - only one of these people is currently known to me, so this list is rather a surprising one. good to be informed of the results, here. thank you.

quoting jane simpson: "...about Helpmann's personality rather than his nationality" - yes, yes - i didn't mean it to read as if the comments were about his nationality. it's a long time ago now, but i thought that the snipes were undercutting his achievements, too...i am pleased to hear that 'people' (other than me!) were bothered by it - i don't recall being aware of that. thanks for the info, jane.

i certainly do recall seeing old film, early videotape, and B/W photos of dancers and/or staff smoking during rehearsals - "to pass the time" - and i do recall teachers smoking in class, when i was a child - but, in australia at least, i THINK (hope?) that would be unimaginable now. heavens, i DO even know dance teachers and ballet examiners who smoke, even now, but i feel sure they would not only NOT do it while working, but also would make at least a minimal attempt to not be seen by their students 'doing it'... also, as someone has pointed out above about the US, in most public venues in australia, there are prohibitions on smoking - which just means that people go outside to do it.

i am reasonably familiar with 'penguin cafe' but not with 'steptext'. i would have to put on the video, though, to recall what you are talking about - probably it will be in the back of my mind all day, and this afternoon on a bus, or tonight in a class, i will all of a sudden SEE, like mental video, the exact segment which shows this up, the best!!! for now, all i can suggest is that, inasmuch as penguin cafe is based on animal movements, to depict or at least suggest animals, maybe that is the origin of the type of arm movement...certainly, as has been suggested above, this is no set ballet position in any syllabus!!!;)

glad to see a reply from an american, addressing the apparent 'stats' (using the term very loosely), for dancers there - as i cannot comment at all about american dancers, so i was beginning to wonder whether what antony suggests was/is true.... i agree that i have heard people SAY that sort of thing - but not for many years (like maybe 20), and only from NON-dancers... antony, in my experience, in australia and the UK, like mel, i would say that no more dancers smoke that 'normal' (!) people. i would hope it would be LESS dancers - and in australia, i would say that would definitely be true.