grace

GWTW - re "intelligent and literate teenagers "...i wish i knew any. they are an almost extinct breed these days, IMO.

citibob, i enjoy reading your posts. thanks for explaining about how you believe the words should be used. that was all i was getting at - i didn't 'get' your point clearly, first time around. your lab story is interesting to me. mel: "Joffrey did not show up in the rehearsal studio very often, but then, he didn't show up anywhere "...sounds like there's a story there, but i don't expect you to tell it!

oh god - arithmetic before breakfast! 1941...so she is 62 - wow - i didn't expect that. thanks nanatchka.

i am a teensy bit confused by citibob's comment about 'mincing' terms. to me, the artistic responsibilities of the director (AD) are NOT limited to "the studio" - so in that sense, what LMCtech adds (in his post which follows mine) overly narrows my 'definition'. glebb's description of what happened at joffrey is an example of what i meant: the director DIRECTING the artistic side of things - not necessarily hands-on DOING all of them, or even much of them (allowing his artistic STAFF to do their jobs in the studio). of course - that distinction probably depends more on the size of the company and its staff, than anything else.

actually - not to nitpick, but as a genuine query, now that it's been raised - wouldn't there be MORE than 20 years between merce and twyla? i thought cuningham was in his 80's, and tharp about 54? anyone know?

nanatchka, unless i am reading the quote too vaguely, it seems to me it just calls cunningham and taylor 'same generation' - certainly not tharp. maybe its just a not-too-thoughtful writer - or written in a hurry! or maybe it depends where you're looking from. if this is someone quite young, maybe THEY think of (tharp ?and...) taylor, limon, cunningham, graham AND humphrey as 'the earlier generation'! ;) i agree with you, though, of course. i had forgotten tharp's dancing history, so that's interesting info - thanks for that.

just doing a bit of a search, re francie huber, i found an article which says tharp chose her as one of the 6 dancers when she founded her 2000 group: "Andrew Asnes and Francie Huber are modern dancers who were members of the Paul Taylor Dance Company. The other four are ballet dancers...". http://www.twylatharp.org/press_rev/Announ...ment_press.html also, this seems to be a description of the actual video/film that i viewed:http://www.queerfilm.com/cinemaq/Film/00219/index.html and this performance review highlights another aspect that struck me in the documentary

thanks leigh. gotcha. 1st para is interesting, and immediately recogniseable from my (distant) observations. 2nd para sounds like a good argument for keeping choreographers/directors front-of-house until AFTERwards! ;)

Alexandra wrote ah - HAAA !thank you!

thanks alexandra - however i have added another link, and that doesn't work, either. also i am having problems with editing (not just this post, but others also). if i edit more than once, (or maybe too quickly after posting?), it seems to keep reverting to the PREVIOUS copy of my text, which makes it very hard to do edits. i should just get it right the FIRST time! neither of these newspaper reports are very informative, or at all enlightening. and, with due respect to wayne eagling for his various accomplishments over the years, i nevertheless think his view - that AD training isn't possible - is naive.

woops! - just discovered this page 2, so my post (above) is now irrelevant. however, i am pleased to see that alexandra agrees with me - and touched by the story, alexandra.

lil_dancer: i guess your teacher knows you far better than we do, but my advice re 'dancing on my grave' would be to NOT be in any hurry to read it - certainly not for under-17's, in my view.

Ari has found this article in the guardian, about the weekend's conference http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/story/0,11710,873472,00.html://http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/feat...,873472,00.html and another by jann parry: wayne eagling says: http://observer.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,873058,00.html

diane - i meant that i imagine i am in the minority in CARING that artists 'should' also be decent people - and further that undeniably 'great' artists, working with 'ordinary' people, should treat them with the respect any human is due - always. and that people whose values disgust me (if i happen to know that), are not people whose work i feel i should take any interest in. to take a severe example - if we think of nazism, or serious racism, or pedophilia, or child cruelty (or animal cruelty), or whatever you find absolutely unacceptable behaviour - if a person with such a history or active inclination produces some appealing art - ought we to admire it? ho hum - THAT will set the cat among the pigeons...sorry, 'guys'! ;) i agree with this, which diane wrote: i would add that it's not so hard, really. and that many such people in dance DO "work with people" ALL their working lives - and some seem to get worse rather than better over the years. i think that has to do with what was said, up above, about great artists (or 'famous people') being increasingly indulged as their reputation increases/as they age.p.S. nice to be speaking with you again, diane.

thanks paul - i knew i hadn't 'got' it. still, it was fun, musing. about carnaval - i have only ever seen it once, many years ago - when i was too inexperienced to have much of an opinion. it's a ballet that has all but disappeared, isn't it? maybe we could play 'casting carnaval' in another thread! now that i understand better what you are on about, i'll give it some thought.

interesting responses. alexandra - i *HOPE* its 'generational' - but i kind of doubt it - still - i don't know, as i am no longer in the rehearsal/company situation, to observe. nanatchka seems to have a very different view (to me), regarding the issue of nice person/humanitarian AND/OR artist/creative genius (as we are discussing in another thread). so i will try to leave that to the other thread. leigh seems to veer in the same direction...although i don't fully understand what you are saying, leigh, about modern dance companies 'vs.' ballet companies. i have seen the same (bad) behaviour from choreographers (BIG ones) in ballet companies, large and small. could you spell it outa bit more, in simple words for the dummy? in fact, i have seen far less of it in modern dance companies, come to think of it...but maybe that's just because i have less experience within any dedicated modern companies - and none within any MAJOR modern companies like taylor's. i suppose maybe that's why it surprised me a little - that i tend to expect modern dance companies to be more egalitarian/adult in interactions (because tha has been my experience). probable reasons: in my experience, they often have more mature dancers than ballet companies - and, as you say, come from a 'spirit' of 'rebellion', with less heirarchy/more of a team ethic and (often) more intellectualisation going on - leading to more respect for the dancer as a whole person, rather than just a moving machine. getting back to alexandra's points: i don't personally feel that such a comment is EVER OK, just before a dancer goes onstage - no matter what effect it is designed to achieve, and no matter whether it happens to, in the end, result in a better performance, or not. but it looks like nanatchka (and maybe leigh) and i would be poles apart on that one - back to the other thread! ;)

i like manhattnik's signature quote of doris humphrey.

well i must be a very boring person: i don't even remember sinfonietta, although i know i have seen it. i find winter dreams boring in the EXTREME! and scenes de ballet leaves me cold. i wouldn't even attend this program, if i could. i am amazed to discover that ashton rated it so highly (scenes)...that's one thing new i've learned today.

p.S. i assume i am in the minority in holding that last opinion?

i have voted 'false', on the wording of the poll itself. i agree with dirac and with dale. i also agree with victoria, that the terms 'genius', 'real artist' , and someone with 'extraordinary talents or gifts', refer to (at least) three distinct and potentially separable things... (although someone COULD be all of these!). the issue, however, beyond the semantics of the poll, DOES concern me. i am inclined to believe that unless someone is a decent human being, i really don't want to even know or see what they can do artistically...but usually, of course, one finds out AFTERwards, what the person is like...

oh my! where to begin!? the original cast of pas de quatre. legnani in swan lake! spessivtseva in giselle, definitely. karsavina in carnaval. pavlova in the (dying) swan, or almost anything else. jumping through the centuries: monica mason in rite of spring beriosova in les noces nerina in la fille mal gardee seymour in les deux pigeons makarova in swan lake the more time i sit here, the more i will think of... merrill ashley, in anything she was 'good' in - my curiosity is piqued by her book 'dancing for balanchine' more of ana laguna - maybe in something that WASN'T mats ek's! lots more of my favorite, alessandra ferri MEN? erik bruhn, live, in anything baryshnikov, at his classical peak - i only saw him live with white oak more of fernando bujones actually, i think i've lost the plot - or missed your point...

quoting from the first post above: "DANCE history" - not BALLET history - "BEFORE the 18th century": that means BEFORE the 1700s... - just trying to make the topic crystal clear for myself! it always helps, with assignments or tests, to write about what you were actually ASKED to write about! as a teacher (of dance history, amongst other things) i am NOT impressed if a student fails to even recognise what the topic is, and writes about something else! in this situation, i might recommend researching and writing about: - 'prehistoric' dance, such as war dances, medicine dances, fertility dances, line dances, round dances - greek dance, or english morris dance - early european FOLK dances (NOT the character or court dances that occur in such ballets as swan lake or sleeping beauty - these are altogether another thing) - sword dances, or May dances, or the history of the hornpipe (but only as far as the time period you have been allocated - don't write one page about pre C18th, and 7 pages coming up to the present !!!) - the C16th and C17th century dances such as alexandra mentions. thoinot's 'orchesographie' (alexandra's suggestion)would make for a fascinating topic, which might surprise you, if you can find appropriate material. - in the 17th century, you can also begin to look at flamenco... please note that i am not an expert, so if you DO any of the above, you should check first, for yourself, that they are appropriate choices. good references (books): ballet & modern dance - a concise history by jack anderson, 1986 - chapters 1 & 2 let's dance by peter buckman,

thanks for all these comments. i DID have a look around the site - although i confess i am not a paul taylor fan. the documentary was quite good - about an hour and a half long, i think. significant excerpts were included, along with the same works in creation or in rehearsal, and snippets of the dancers commenting about their work. relative to another thread we have going, at the moment - about ADs and the feedback they give, and whether or not they are nice people - it was noteworthy that one dancer told of how distressed he was, at being told by taylor, just prior to an important opening show, that he was not 'working' in the role, and taylor couldn't tell him how to 'fix' it. his distress was somewhat relieved, when another male dancer shared that HE had experienced the same situation, also just prior to an important show in a new role, when taylor told HIM that he was 'not right' in the role, and he didn't know why...these comments are cruel, humiliating and badly timed, to say the least. does anyone want to spring to taylor's defence? ... just curious...

REALLY?!?i don't THINK so. :rolleyes:

i saw a documentary on paul taylor co, on ovation yesterday (via foxtel). i was struck by the sensual beauty in movement of francie huber. being lazy about searches, i wondered if any of you, who are familiar with the modrern dance content of this board, could tell me whether there has been any discussion about her before (here)? thanks!