grace

having just enjoyed reading a few quotes of Tobi Tobias in another thread, i wondered if some of you could fill me in about this writer, whose name i recognise, but who i have no knowledge of....

i particularly enjoy the quotes from Tobi Tobias - i guess i should seek out some more of his/her (?) writing to read...

not contradicting you at all, plaeidies, but might we ask who this teacher is? judging from your point 2, it sounds as though she might be very old (?),... and therefore expressing some ideas which MIGHT no longer be generally held?

the dancers who i remember being likened to fonteyn were the RB's ravenna tucker, and nicola katrak of SWRB. certainly as you say, ari, in terms of build, there was nothing alike about porter and fonteyn.

skimming the article, i'm afraid i took it seriously, until i got to this para

Alexandra wrote: wow! i take your point, ed waffle: well explained. i like the machine example. i guess the 'precarious' to me just indicated, finely tuned or from a highly-strung personality. but i DO get your meaning, and why you see it that way. thanks.

silvy, if you do a search here, for another VERY recent thread about raked stages, you will find that, amazingly, a book has recently been published on just this topic (apparently). it's available at amazon.com, i believe, so you could also just click on the banner, at the top of ballet talk, and do a search over there.

how about it? shall we try to learn a bit, right here? this internet medium certainly has its limitations, mind you - unless one employs a scanner and pictures...but if there is interest, i would like to try to communicate some of the basics to readers here... rather than choke up a whole thread with responses, please Private Message me, if you would like to see this happen, and if there is interest, AND if it is OK with alexandra, i will start to "teach" in this thread. if not, the thread will quietly and discreetly disappear!!

speaking as a teacher, i will say that some students DO show off for ANY observers, some only show off for recogniseable dance-people observing - and some are inhibited or quite thrown off by any class observers (especially their own parents).

i agree completely with alexandra, and with citibob's first para. speculation of such a personal nature is highly questionable. one can report descriptively on the APPEARANCE of the dancer, or the dance - but not on the private motivations one is guessing might be behind those appearances. as to the kistler quote, highly analysed above: i do not read anything at all about 'failure' into it. i think the analyst (Ed Waffle) must know something i DON'T know, in order to read any sense of 'failure' into that particular piece of text (maybe he is familiar with the dancer, or with the context of the quote?). all i can interpret that particular quote as saying, descriptively, is that kistler's performances are highly pre-planned. the word 'precarious' is hard to understand in this context, IMO. my first bet would be, that it means that so much (too much) planning has gone into the role, so that there is no place for spontaneity...or that the over-analysis robs the dance of freshness...? note that i know NOTHING about the dancer; so i am only reading what's there. (i don't dispute what YOU say it means, Ed, only that i can't read all that into it.)

wow. i would love to see THAT. i will have a look at the website now. thanks for this info.

i watched porter with the RB through the early 1980's, so she had a long career if she was also there in the 60's (as posted above). when she retired, she was a principal. she also (co?)wrote an auto- biography, which was quickly out of print - unfortunately, as i didn't have a chance to read it. while she was very beautiful, facially, (and with strikingly arched feet), it never occured to me that she looked like fonteyn, and i never heard anyone suggest that. ...which is not to say that she didn't or doesn't..., but just that the idea is a surprise to me, because she WAS beautiful to look at, while fonteyn was rather plainer (IMO). i've always remembered a lovely photo i saw as a child, of anya linden, in penchee arabesque, outdoors, in les sylphides costume, probably still as a student, possibly in the garden at white lodge. lady sainsbury is strongly involved in arts sponsorship, and i believe she has just been appointed chair of the RB board. marion tait is also someone who must have had a very long performing career. she was still with the sadler's wells RB, as a principal, in the 80's. Jacqueline Rayet and Anneli Alhanko are the only ones i am unfamiliar with.

that's the bit i was trying to avoid talking about, here. FOR DANCE - in the UK and in australia, to the best of my knowledge, there are no rights to the storage venue. nor any to the publisher. also, any rights to the actual 'heiroglyphs' written on the page (as opposed to the choreography) which go to the notator (choreologist), actually go to the company which employed him/her - NOT the individual person (of course this is assuming they were employed to notate, which is almost always the case). there is also copyright in the PRODUCTION, including the stager's/director's interpretation, the sets, the costumes, presumably the lighting design, etc... additionally, there is copyright in the actual notation (language) - but that's a whole OTHER vexed issue, which, i'm told by an australian arts lawyer, may in fact be a fantasy of the Benesh Institute....(that's another question which i find fascinating.) all of the same points should apply, no matter what notation method is used, but it certainly would be interesting to have a laban expert on this board, to compare notes, occasionally. sorry to have detoured this far, BilboB, but there is always a concern for accuracy of information on this board - that's one of the best things about it. mel, i checked out that link, above, to your swan lake notes: quite an achievement - i'd never been aware of these before. bravo! these should serve BilboB well.

i would like to go back to some comments of mel's, which i have been 'ignoring' in an effort to keep the discussion fairly simple and superficial: the first comment is of course true - it is not the READING of the score that breaches copyright, but rather the RECREATING of the encoded material - which might follow from the reading. i thought we would all understand this.and this second quote refers to the '50 years beyond the death of the creator' rule. although benesh was created mid-20th century, as many as possible earlier works have been notated (e.g. swan lake, nutcracker, coppelia, ...whatever). therefore, this choreographic material is already well into the public domain, (although the specific PRODUCTIONS aren't - but let's leave THAT out, for now!). these scores exist. there is quite a bit of (benesh) notated choreography from that 'pre-the 50 years' era, which IS readily available. for example, little booklets of notated solos from the classics, which have been notated quite simply, without too much of the detail which would mark them as belonging to a particular PRODUCTION. in other words - as 'pure' as possible...and therefore regarded as 'fair enough' to put out in the market place. whether or not the benesh institute still even prints or sells these, i don't know - because so very few people are ABLE to read the stuff, that there really isn't much of a market. but they HAVE been made publicly available in the past. finally, getting down to mel's last and (to me) most interesting point : "The possibility of automobile accidents and jaywalking has not restricted the opening of roads and streets." i'm not going to think too much about this analogy, as the mental picture just confuses me, i'm afraid. :confused: but the point he makes is a valid and significant one: *we can all buy copies of plays (for example) written by living playwrights - and their copyright is not breached by the TEXT being available. putting it into performance is what breaches the copyright.* am i right, here? .... i believe so, in your country, as well as mine. in legal terms, it IS the same with a ballet score - and yet, the reins are held tightly by the powers that be, fearful of plagiarism... ...food for thought, i believe. thanks for bringing up this point, mel.

bilboB - the word 'libretto' is the one usually used, in ballet AS WELL AS in opera, for the storyline. the word 'syllabus' is inclined to mean other things in the ballet world. i would agree with someone up above who recommended collecting (only the very best of) the programmes offered - those with good background information, rather than lots of advertisements and photos. i imagine it would be worth your while, to obtain and read cyril beaumont's few books titled 'The Ballet Called .......'. these exist for Giselle and for Swan Lake, but i don't know if there are any others. these come as close as possible to what you are asking for - but of course they are about 50 years old....nevertheless, you will probably find they are obtainable, if you search patiently...and/or contact dancebooks (woops - no longer 'in london') for a used copy.

thanks for that info, jane. i imagine that all these articles would be of interest, but especially the SF one, and as you say, the dancer's responses to viewing old and untrained bodies in performance. thank you very much for following through on this thread.

like hans, i want to recommend 'LES Sylphides' (Chopiniana) - but i cannot say which american companies would be best, in this. depending on where you live, maybe some american posters can do that?

i thought danseurs drank 'Nobilly Tea' , before going onstage, to improve their performance in major classical roles?

do you also stock 'Critic's Shampers' ? - only the tiniest taste obliterates all bad memories of the evening.

thanks sissone. i THOUGHT welch didn't officially take over till july - but i wasn't sure enough to say it. glad YOU did.

ravenna was a lovely sweet dancer, occasionally reminiscent of fonteyn. i remember her being partnered by bruce sansom, among others. i saw her (possibly both of them) in fille, notably, but also in other works. you are lucky to have her as a teacher, and possibly as a role model - learn and remember all you can!

re Bilbo's last post on page 1: BilboBaggins, in your first para, where you say 'syllabus', i assume you mean 'libretto'? :confused: sorry that when i wrote this post, i hadn't seen that there was a page 2. from page 2, i'd like to underline alexandra's comment: "trust me on this one, Bilbo B -- the market is infinitesimal."

no time to think right now - but there's also Lehar's The Merry Widow, The Tales of Hoffman (did someone mention that up above...?), and wasn't Pineapple Poll an eperetta? or maybe not? anyone tried Turandot or Tosca!!?.......

Agreement with the above, including a bravo for marc's para on architecture. i haven't been to st petersburg, but have seen this comparison made often, on film, which seems to be the perfect medium to express it in, making it immediately understandable. i too, am keen now to read your bolshoi equivalent.

from a foreigner's perspective, ABT was the company that was like (modelled on?) a traditional 'european'-style american ballet company - in terms of the staffing, the repertoire, the heirarchy, the technique, etc... - while NYCB was the 'groundbreaking' american ballet company, which was taking the artform in one very particular direction. by that, of course i do not mean to imply that ABT was NOT 'groundbreaking' - but rather that THEIR progressive efforts (ABT's) were progressive in the same way as the traditional european-style companies were progressing (such as: updating the narrative ballet form with new versions, and more 'risky' stories and more 'local' stories, experimenting with more abstract ballets, adding the odd humorous ballet, whatever/etc...) hope that isn't too confusing to be understood... of course another way to express it - or another distinction to make - is that ABT had/has the eclectic repertoire, similar to major european-style companies, while NYCB *was* ONE choreographer's company - a tool for his own expression (of americanism in...) ballet...