Competition in ballet

[Meliss]

Now it seems that none of the dancers put glass into each other's pointe shoes, but Tsiskaridze remembers about one interesting case of competition.

"One day, in winter, I came into the dressing room after a performance and saw that my jacket  was doused with engine oil. And the frosts were terrible. I didn't have another jacket, and I didn't have the money to buy a new one".

Are there similar cases in American theaters? Do dancers often harm their competitors?

Edited July 9 by Meliss

[On Pointe]

2 hours ago, Meliss said:

Are there similar cases in American theaters? Do dancers often harm their competitors?

No.

[Meliss]

3 hours ago, On Pointe said:

No.

Thank you.

[Meliss]

Writer Eduard Limonov: "In those years, and this is 1975-1977, there was a full-fledged ballet war between two stars who fled the USSR — Nureyev and Baryshnikov. With ambushes, surprise attacks, and fan clashes. The agents of the stars, their lawyers, and the organizations responsible for the tour participated in the war. And newspapers, newspapers, newspapers.

After all, the continents were divided between the two stars. The territory of the United States and its conservative viewers went to the short, stubborn and technically impeccable Baryshnikov.

And Europe, capricious and windy, the birthplace of the arts, went to the champagne genius, flighty — cheekbones, cheeky grin, brazen majesty — Rudolf Nureyev. Geographically, I belonged to Baryshnikov's territory at that time. I lived on Broadway in New York, a stone's throw from his biographer Genka Shmakov, because it so happened that, on Genka's advice, I even brought my first novel "It's Me, Eddie" in manuscript to Baryshnikov, and he began to read my novel, took it to rehearsals, read it in between. Besides, I could and did meet with Baryshnikov at his agent, Remi Sanders, on Madison Avenue, he went there. And he liked my novel. But my soul was inclined towards the brilliant and elegant Nureyev".

I'm afraid I don't understand why there had to be a war between them. Isn't it possible for stars to work in the same country, in the same city, and even in the same theater?

[Mashinka]

War?  First I've heard about it.

[Helene]

“Fan wars” are nothing new.  Even the most impassioned people can behave well, but, occasionally, it gets ugly, in the arts — Callas fans vs. Tebaldi fans — in sports — Yuna Kim fans vs. Mao Asada fans — in tech — Bill Gates/Windows fans vs.Steve Jobs/Mac fans — in movies, etc.  Some times there’s personal animosity, like with Plushenko and Yagudin,  sometimes they meet for beers and laugh and trade stories, like with Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, and sometimes, they’re neutral about it, roll their eyes or shrug their shoulders, and live their lives.
 

There are people who are not going to like each other, because not all humans like each other.  But any  “wars” between artists and/or between their fans sell newspapers and magazines and are great click-bait.  It’s money.

[On Pointe]

3 hours ago, Meliss said:

Writer Eduard Limonov: "In those years, and this is 1975-1977, there was a full-fledged ballet war between two stars who fled the USSR — Nureyev and Baryshnikov. With ambushes, surprise attacks, and fan clashes. The agents of the stars, their lawyers, and the organizations responsible for the tour participated in the war. And newspapers, newspapers, newspapers.

After all, the continents were divided between the two stars. The territory of the United States and its conservative viewers went to the short, stubborn and technically impeccable Baryshnikov.

And Europe, capricious and windy, the birthplace of the arts, went to the champagne genius, flighty — cheekbones, cheeky grin, brazen majesty — Rudolf Nureyev. Geographically, I belonged to Baryshnikov's territory at that time. I lived on Broadway in New York, a stone's throw from his biographer Genka Shmakov, because it so happened that, on Genka's advice, I even brought my first novel "It's Me, Eddie" in manuscript to Baryshnikov, and he began to read my novel, took it to rehearsals, read it in between. Besides, I could and did meet with Baryshnikov at his agent, Remi Sanders, on Madison Avenue, he went there. And he liked my novel. But my soul was inclined towards the brilliant and elegant Nureyev".

I'm afraid I don't understand why there had to be a war between them. Isn't it possible for stars to work in the same country, in the same city, and even in the same theater?

Mr. Limonov is being a tad dramatic.  I remember those years well,  but I don't recall any "war" between Baryshnikov and Nureyev or their fans.  Doesn't mean there wasn't one,   but if there was,  it only concerned a few people.  It certainly was not of particular interest to the media.

[Meliss]

Eduard Limonov:

"So they fought then, and each chose his own continent, suitable for him, Paris fought in a happy tantrum from Nureyev, and the United States solidly owned a powerful professional. (By the way, Baryshnikov defended America that he inherited, and from the young dancer Godunov who arrived later, he defended zealously and ruthlessly, and as a result, I think, he was the reason for Godunov's unsuccessful career in the United States, ousted Alexander in the cinema, where he died soon)."  https://regnum.ru/article/2356098

[lmspear]

Nureyev had been in the West for over a decade before Baryshnikov arrived.  In dance terms they are practically different generations. Nureyev had a rabid following in the States.  In addition to touring with the Royal Ballet for annual visits to the Metropolitan Opera House he staged many tours of a small group called Nureyev and Friends, and guested with the National Ballet of Canada, Joffrey Ballet and the Martha Graham Company.

I think most Americans myself included, would say "both, more, why should I have to choose?" It's not like preferring Coke over Pepsi, where yould rather have nothing or water rather than let the other brand cross your lips. Baryshnikov for pure technique and and Nureyev for the drama and emotion he brought to the stage. There was no war for the audience.

I never had the chance to see Irek Mukhamedov, another Bolshoi Spartacus, who was also favored by Grigorovich, who settled in London with the Royal Ballet.  The dance boom was winding down and the company wasn't visiting the States annually.  What is your opinion of Mukhamedov?

[Meliss]

14 minutes ago, lmspear said:

 

I never had the chance to see Irek Mukhamedov, another Bolshoi Spartacus, who was also favored by Grigorovich, who settled in London with the Royal Ballet.  The dance boom was winding down and the company wasn't visiting the States annually.  What is your opinion of Mukhamedov?

Not bad).

[Helene]

1 hour ago, Meliss said:

Eduard Limonov:

"So they fought then, and each chose his own continent, suitable for him, Paris fought in a happy tantrum from Nureyev, and the United States solidly owned a powerful professional. (By the way, Baryshnikov defended America that he inherited, and from the young dancer Godunov who arrived later, he defended zealously and ruthlessly, and as a result, I think, he was the reason for Godunov's unsuccessful career in the United States, ousted Alexander in the cinema, where he died soon)."  https://regnum.ru/article/2356098

That has enough falsehoods and opinions based on falseshoods to be laughable.  Nureyev was an established star in London with the Royal Ballet, while Baryshnikov was still in school in St. Petersburg; he defected in 1964 and didn't move to Paris Opera Ballet as director until 1982.   Baryshnikov already had an Academy award nomination for The Turning Point before Godunov even defected.  During Godunov's years in the US, Baryshnikov made five commercial movies, and in four of them, he portrayed Russians/Russian dancers, the kinds of roles that Godunov was offered and turned down. 

[Drew]

The Limonov sounds absurd to me for the reasons @Helene and @Imspear  describe. It certainly contradicts my own personal experience--which admitedly is just limited to what I saw/heard.  Still, I spent long hours in lines to get standing room tickets to see both Baryshnikov and Nureyev at different times in the mid-late 70's and early 80s. These lines were full of opinionated ballet fans all of whom had their favorites and preferences and yet, as I remember, no vicious arguments about Nureyev vs. Baryshnikov ever occurred, though possibly some discussion.

(I better remember one Baryshnikov fan telling me he found Erik Bruhn's dancing overly precious. For me, Bruhn, who had retired by the early 70s, was a touchstone.)

People understood these were very different dancers, also from somewhat different generations, though of course some preferred one or the other.  Many, if not most, enjoyed both. Might some fans in other contexts have gotten into arguments--sure it's possible, but I never heard it. Civil and occasionally snobby disagreement was more common.

But for Nureyev being less popular in the U.S. (?!??!!) --  @Imspear is not exaggerating about Nureyev's following in the United States.  When Nureyev was still more or less in his prime, the Nureyev fans I personally encountered -- waiting in line or at the stage door -- seemed to me the most determined fans I ever encountered in terms of wanting to see his every performance, watch his every offstage move, and willingness to travel the country and go sleepless nights to get tickets to see him--though Baryshnikov surely had very determined fans as well.  (Baryshnikov was considerably younger so he was still in his prime, when Nureyev's dancing was starting to lose some of its luster, but that is a matter of generational differences.)

Just another aside but my mother loved Nureyev. And though she also enjoyed Baryshnikov a lot, I am pretty sure that she found Nureyev more compelling.

Edited July 11 by Drew

[Meliss]

12 hours ago, Helene said:

Baryshnikov already had an Academy award nomination for The Turning Point

Have you seen this movie? Did you see anything worthy of this nomination in Baryshnikov's acting? Take any average ballet dancer and he will play such a role no worse!

[Meliss]

30 minutes ago, Drew said:

The Limonov sounds absurd to me

Oh yes, Nureyev and Baryshnikov did not wage wars, on the contrary.

[volcanohunter]

It's worth noting that in 1989 Baryshnikov was nominated for a Tony Award--the Antoinette Perry Award for Excellence in [live] Broadway Theatre--for Best Performance by a Leading Actor in a Play for his performance in a stage adaptation of Franz Kafka's Metamorphosis. Obviously, the role of a man who turns into a giant insect required a very physically expressive performance. He didn't win, but his fellow "losers" that year were Victor Garber and another extremely physical actor, Bill Irwin. (That same year Robert La Fosse was nominated for Best Performance by a Leading Actor in a Musical for his performance in Jerome Robbins' Broadway, although he lost to his co-star Jason Alexander.)

As for Nureyev, my mother has an anecdote about how she was working in the bookstore of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and he swept in one day and demanded to buy the most expensive book in stock (on Delacroix, as it turned out, which rather suited him, I think). At the time Nureyev was the star attraction of the Royal Ballet's tour at the Metropolitan Opera House, my mother was an art student with a summer job at the museum, and Baryshnikov was still a pupil at the Vaganova School.

[Mashinka]

2 hours ago, Drew said:

When Nureyev was still more or less in his prime, the Nureyev fans I personally encountered -- waiting in line or at the stage door -- seemed to me the most determined fans I ever encountered in terms of wanting to see his every performance, watch his every offstage move, and willingness to travel the country and go sleepless nights to get tickets to see him

I recommend "Memories of Rudolf Nureyev" by Nancy Sifton, who lists all her extensive stage door experiences  in the US and further afield.

 

1 hour ago, Meliss said:

Have you seen this movie? Did you see anything worthy of this nomination in Baryshnikov's acting? Take any average ballet dancer and he will play such a role no worse!

Nureyev also appeared in films and in my opinion was not a good screen actor, whereas both Barshnikov and Godunov were.  Average dancers seldom make good actors. 

[Meliss]

36 minutes ago, Mashinka said:

I recommend "Memories of Rudolf Nureyev" by Nancy Sifton, who lists all her extensive stage door experiences  in the US and further afield.

 

Nureyev also appeared in films and in my opinion was not a good screen actor, whereas both Barshnikov and Godunov were.  Average dancers seldom make good actors. 

I watched two films with Baryshnikov - White Nights and Turning Point. And a documentary - A Dancer and a dance, it seems. The only memorable moment is when Baryshnikov, in the role of Kopeikin, is sitting at some kind of party with a guitar and trying to sing. I kind of liked his high-pitched voice. And his dance to Vysotsky's song in White Nights, which many admire, is so unnatural, especially the elements of break dancing)). As for the documentary, it is unbearably boring. Only Renwall is of interest there.

[Meliss]

On 7/9/2024 at 6:11 PM, On Pointe said:

No.

"Tiny Pretty Things is an American drama television series about a ballet school in Chicago. The project focuses on students, teachers, administrators and benefactors of the school. The choreographic numbers in the play are performed by the actors themselves, not the understudies. The plot is quite frightening: one of the most promising students Cassie Shore (Anna Maish) is pushed off the roof, and a white rose is found at the crime scene".

I wonder why such horrors should be invented for a feature film, if in reality the dancers do not harm each other at all?

Edited July 11 by Meliss

[Mashinka]

Because it was fiction?  Black Swan had no real links to reality either.

[Meliss]

1 hour ago, Mashinka said:

Because it was fiction?  Black Swan had no real links to reality either.

Well, the screenwriters could come up with something closer to reality - harassment, for example.

[California]

3 hours ago, Meliss said:

I watched two films with Baryshnikov - White Nights and Turning Point. And a documentary - A Dancer and a dance, it seems. The only memorable moment is when Baryshnikov, in the role of Kopeikin, is sitting at some kind of party with a guitar and trying to sing. I kind of liked his high-pitched voice. And his dance to Vysotsky's song in White Nights, which many admire, is so unnatural, especially the elements of break dancing)). As for the documentary, it is unbearably boring. Only Renwall is of interest there.

Baryshnikov also made the film Dancers, a hokey drama loosely based on the plot of Giselle. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092822/

The best thing about the three dramatic films is the inclusion for posterity of Baryshnikov's performances:

• Turning Point: the Don Q PdD, a variation from Corsaire, a bit from the wedding pas de deux, and those studio rehearsal clips
• White Nights: excerpts from Le Jeune Homme and the dance with Hines (which they reportedly choreographed themselves, with help from Tharp)
• Dancers: the act II variations and PdD with Ferri from Giselle

[Helene]

1 hour ago, Meliss said:

ell, the screenwriters could come up with something closer to reality - harassment, for example.

The producers get to choose whatever they want to pay to put ons creen, and, for the most part, what they think will bring them a return on investment.  Screenwriters generally write to the assignment. 

If that is sensationalist drivel with many beautiful young people in leotards, that's their choice.

Anyone who is interested in anything closer to reality is welcome to produce their own show, movie, play, etc. and to hire screenwriters to write it for them.

I'm really not sure what the photo of Baryshnikov and Nureyev is supposed to represent.

[volcanohunter]

45 minutes ago, California said:

The best thing about the three dramatic films is the inclusion for posterity of Baryshnikov's performances:

• Turning Point: the Don Q PdD, a variation from Corsaire, a bit from the wedding pas de deux, and those studio rehearsal clips
• White Nights: excerpts from Le Jeune Homme and the dance with Hines (which they reportedly choreographed themselves, with help from Tharp)
• Dancers: the act II variations and PdD with Ferri from Giselle

Yes.

[On Pointe]

5 hours ago, Mashinka said:

Average dancers seldom make good actors. 

It's noteworthy that James Cagney and Christopher Walken,  two legendary "bad guys" in the movies,  were also outstanding dancers.

 

4 hours ago, Meliss said:

"Tiny Pretty Things is an American drama television series about a ballet school in Chicago. The project focuses on students, teachers, administrators and benefactors of the school. The choreographic numbers in the play are performed by the actors themselves, not the understudies. The plot is quite frightening: one of the most promising students Cassie Shore (Anna Maish) is pushed off the roof, and a white rose is found at the crime scene".

And it absolutely sucked,  totally unwatchable.  Black Swan was a psychological drama about a young woman descending into madness,  but it had no connection to reality.  It could have been set in any number of highly competitive professions.  (And the off screen romantic shenanigans of the cast and director,  which continue to this day,  would make a pretty hot telenovela.)

 

59 minutes ago, volcanohunter said:

The best thing about the three dramatic films is the inclusion for posterity of Baryshnikov's performances:

Baryshnikov's performances were not the only ones preserved.  There is a montage of excerpts from a fictional ballet gsla that included many of the leading dancers of the day,  including Suzanne Farrell and Peter Martins in the Tchaikovsky pas de deux.  Only a few seconds of the performances are in the final cut of the film,  but extensive footage was shot.  Turning Point was a big,  soapy box office hit,  but I imagine it might have been a very different film if Gelsey Kirkland,  who was originally cast,  had been well enough to play the young dancer who has a fling with a playboy superstar.

[Helene]

Kirkland's voice and accent were pretty awful, though, by movie standards.  I think that's where they would have needed to work with her the most, because she'd have to be convincingly raised in the wholesome mid-West. 

My favorite piece of dancer acting in The Turning Point was Antoinette Sibley's. And I loved the rest of the dancing by the gala guest stars.The actor who played her younger brother and danced enough to be a convincing ballet student, was terrific.