Alexander Godunov, unique and unforgettable

[Meliss]

3 hours ago, On Pointe said:

As it was,  it appears that hepatitis is what took him out,  complicated by alcoholism. 

That's wrong.

3 hours ago, On Pointe said:

Russians have a reputation for being heavy drinkers. 

)) "When and by which doctor is alcohol addiction diagnosed? Today, it is increasingly being said that alcohol abuse is a disease. This means that there is both a diagnosis and methods of its formulation. Thus, in the generally accepted medical classification, “alcoholism” is encoded according to ICD-10 (“International Statistical Classification of Diseases in the 10th revision”), and its generally accepted designation is F-10. Further, there are several categories in this subgroup.

Strange as it may sound, but regular consumption of alcoholic beverages does not mean a “diagnosis of alcoholism". The fact is that alcoholics often go into an uncontrolled binge, they have a pronounced degradation of personality, behavior in the absence of alcohol becomes unbearable.

Accordingly, such a diagnosis can be made by a narcologist or a psychiatrist-narcologist and will be removed by them after treatment."

His doctor Maurice Levi was neither а narcologist nor a psychiatrist-narcologist. He could not make  such a diagnosis. And I very much doubt that Godunov's medical record contains the word alcoholism.

[Drew]

4 hours ago, On Pointe said:

As the death of Amy Winehouse sadly illustrated,  stopping drinking can be deadly for an alcoholic.  It is a complex disease.

 

It is a complex disease, but I fear that way of putting it ("stopping drinking can be deadly for an alcoholic") is a little misleading out of context or for people who don't know what happened with Amy Winehouse.  She didn't die for lack of alcohol or even because she got a little drunk when she was no longer used to alcohol: the amount of alcohol in her blood when she died was, according to the coroner, an amount that can and does cause fatalities. She might have been used to it when she was drinking all the time, so yes, I guess she might have lived longer had she been binge drinking non-stop...though maybe not. (She had told her doctor she had been in a pattern of stopping for a few weeks, then resuming, so she hadn't stopped for that long.) It is very, very sad. I felt terrible when I heard she had died--still feel terrible when I think about her death. Link below reports on the Coroner's conclusions:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/jan/08/amy-winehouse-alcohol-poisoning-inquest

Edited July 11 by Drew

[Helene]

In the US there are "screening instruments" that are use to diagnose pre-alcoholism and alcoholism, and there is no requirement this be done by a narcologist or psychiatrist, although treatment often is.  Personal physicians refer their patients for treatment by other specialists,and to rehab programs, as well.  His medical records are not public except for cause of death, and likely will never be.  

In my opinion, denial of a major problem that was observed by people who knew a person in different countries and different professions over a number of years strips a person of their individuality, complexity, and humanity.  Deification does no one any favors.

[Meliss]

12 hours ago, Helene said:

He could not get the parts he wanted: he was turning down parts he didn't want. That's a choice.

There is a difference between an "unemployed actor" who is not offered roles, and an "unemployed actor" who rejects many offers that he is not interested in.

12 hours ago, Helene said:

The LA Times is not a yellow journalism publication. 

Did Bisset call him an "unemployed actor" in this newspaper? Can I read this?

12 hours ago, Helene said:

High assessment of someone's talent is not the same thing as superstardom in the arts.  It's a rare thing

This is an interesting question, I would say, a topic for a separate discussion. A very large number of people in different countries of the world consider Godunov a superstar precisely because of the way he danced.

12 hours ago, Helene said:

He not only was asked to become Artistic Director at ABT: he tried to resign and the Board refused his resignation, which is hardly advertising yourself. 

Why not? His refusal was immediately published in the newspapers. By the way, why did he work as the art director at ABT for free?

12 hours ago, Helene said:

As far as his drinking was concerned, it was well documented by many people who knew Godunov over the years, and his doctor knew he was an alcoholic from personal experience.

I have already written here that he drank, but was not an alcoholic. He didn't have any binge drinking, much less a personality breakdown. He looked cool, he was always fit, he worked on the film "The Zone", in April 1995 he went to Riga to visit his family аnd friends. 

Healthy, cheerful, looking great. And less than a month after that, the end.

.Who's an alcoholic here?

In the center is his former teacher at the Riga Choreographic School, Juris Kapralis.

Edited July 11 by Meliss

[Meliss]

56 minutes ago, Drew said:

It is a complex disease, but I fear that way of putting it ("stopping drinking can be deadly for an alcoholic") is a little misleading out of context or for people who don't know what happened with Amy Winehouse.  She didn't die for lack of alcohol or even because she got a little drunk when she was no longer used to alcohol: the amount of alcohol in her blood when she died was, according to the coroner, an amount that can and does cause fatalities. She might have been used to it when she was drinking all the time, so yes, I guess she might have lived longer had she been binge drinking non-stop...though maybe not. (She had told her doctor she had been in a pattern of stopping for a few weeks, then resuming, so she hadn't stopped for that long.) It is very, very sad. I felt terrible when I heard she had died--still feel terrible when I think about her death. Link below reports on the Coroner's conclusions:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/jan/08/amy-winehouse-alcohol-poisoning-inquest

"Second inquest into singer's death was held after original coroner was found not to have correct qualifications". 

Godunov did not have any inquest.  Although the cases looked similar! Why? No answer.

Edited July 11 by Meliss

[Meliss]

47 minutes ago, Helene said:

In the US there are "screening instruments" that are use to diagnose pre-alcoholism and alcoholism

Do you mean such screening? https://www.aafp.org/pubs/afp/issues/2002/0201/p441/jcr:content/root/aafp-article-primary-content-container/aafp_article_main_par/aafp_figure.enlarge.html

But these are just questionnaires!

[Helene]

Alcoholism is more complex with many more flavors than “binge drinking” and “personality breakdowns.”  There are people who are quite lovely when they are drinking, whether they are drunk occasionally or are alcoholics.  There are very high-functioning alcoholics.  There are people who drink all day long, slow and steady, and do not binge, but who are alcoholics.

Balanchine took a salary of $1/year when he was in charge of NYCB.  Usually, if an Artistic Director takes a small or no salary of a major institution, it’s because they can afford to. Arts organizations can get some money from federal, local, and state governments, but that is a drop in the bucket from what they need to raise from foundations and private donors.

There are plenty of dancers who dance with major companies, get huge ovations, get spectacular reviews, are featured sometimes in the mainstream press, have opportunities to make real money, and have dedicated Uber-fans.  It does not make them superstars.  Perhaps in the Soviet Union and Russia dancing alone would have, but it’s the rare ballet dancer in America who achieves/achieved superstar status. And Godunov was not one of them.  Baryshnikov may have been the last.

[On Pointe]

1 hour ago, Meliss said:

Healthy, cheerful, looking great. And less than a month after that, the end.

.Who's an alcoholic here?

In the center is his former teacher at the Riga Choreographic School, Juris Kapralis.

They say beauty is in the eye of the beho!der.  Perhaps illness is too.  To me,  Godunov does not look "healthy",  " cheerful" or "great" in that photo.  He looks like a sick man barely holding on.  May he rest in peace.

 

[Drew]

10 minutes ago, Meliss said:

"Second inquest into singer's death was held after original coroner was found not to have correct qualifications". 

Godunov did not have any inquest.  Although the cases looked similar! Why? No answer.

I commented on Amy Winehouse with no intention of commenting or making a comparison with Godunov. I was stricken by her death.

But if you want to know what I think about the inquest business--well I don't know why the British wanted to do an inquest in Winehouse's case--it's a different country with different laws than the U.S. and Winehouse was far more famous than Godunov even as famous as he was. I also never heard anything that made me think Godunov's death the least bit suspicious or mysterious--nothing that would call for an inquest. I don't share your skepticism about his doctor, and who that was friends with him in Los Angeles at that time has ever said they found his death and the diagnosis of hepatitis/alcoholism suspicious or mysterious?  Certainly no-one who came forward at the time.

What I have learned reading the discussion here hasn't changed my view and I think that nothing I write will change anyone else's view. I will add that a list of great artists known to be alcoholics at some point in their lives would include some pretty luminous names--including  among ballet luminaries Lev Ivanov (I believe the musicologist/historian Roland Wiley discusses this). It doesn't make anyone love Swan Lake less. 

[Mashinka]

Generally an autopsy is held in Britain in cases where someone dies outside of a hospital/hospice and hasn't had a diagnosis of a fatal disease.  Alcohol would be a secondary cause of death, usually alcoholics die from liver failure.  Perhaps it is an example of British bureaucracy, but I think someone dying at Godonov's age would warrant further investigation.

[Meliss]

2 hours ago, Helene said:

Alcoholism is more complex with many more flavors than “binge drinking” and “personality breakdowns.”  

It is quite possible not to be an alcoholic and die simply from an overdose. Or from something else. No one will ever understand how death from alcoholism can be diagnosed based on the fact that a bottle of alcohol was found next to a person. By the way, who saw this bottle? There are no photos. At least they could take a picture for his family. However, they would not have believed it anyway and do not believe it. If his family had been called, they would have insisted on an autopsy. But they weren't even informed. They learned about Alexander's death much later from some acquaintances. How is that possible? Alexander's brother's wife talks about this in one of the documentaries about him.

46.50

Edited July 11 by Meliss

[Meliss]

54 minutes ago, Mashinka said:

I think someone dying at Godonov's age would warrant further investigation.

Sure.

[Meliss]

1 hour ago, On Pointe said:

They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Obviously, there is not only beauty in the eyes of the beholder)). I really hope that few people share your view.

[Meliss]

2 hours ago, Helene said:

Balanchine took a salary of $1/year when he was in charge of NYCB.  Usually, if an Artistic Director takes a small or no salary of a major institution, it’s because they can afford to.

I suppose they could all afford it. But I doubt that everyone did that. A good job should be well paid.

2 hours ago, Helene said:

There are plenty of dancers who dance with major companies, get huge ovations, get spectacular reviews, are featured sometimes in the mainstream press, have opportunities to make real money, and have dedicated Uber-fans.  It does not make them superstars.

But what does?

[Meliss]

1 hour ago, Drew said:

Winehouse was far more famous than Godunov

And how did you figure it out? Do you have any statistical research data on this issue?

1 hour ago, Drew said:

I commented on Amy Winehouse with no intention of commenting or making a comparison with Godunov. I was stricken by her death.

 

But the similarity of the situations is obvious.

[Mashinka]

5 minutes ago, Meliss said:

And how did you figure it out? Do you have any statistical research data on this issue?

A singer will always become more famous than a dancer because of record sales, also Amy Winehouse lived and died in the age of social media.

[Meliss]

7 minutes ago, Mashinka said:

A singer will always become more famous than a dancer

A nice joke.

[lmspear]

I believe Frank Sinatra outranked Igor  Youskevitch, and Elvis Presley outranked Jacques d'Amboise, and according to John Lennon the Beatles were more famous than God.  

The average balletomane will know all these names. The average member of the public will only know the singers.

Edited July 11 by lmspear

[Mashinka]

Ballet is a minority interest, popular music is universal, what I wrote is reality not a joke.

[Meliss]

5 minutes ago, Mashinka said:

Ballet is a minority interest, popular music is universal, what I wrote is reality not a joke.

Are you serious speaking that "A singer will always become more famous than a dancer"?  But it is really funny. 

[Mashinka]

Yes, I'm completely serious..  I wouldn't recognize Tayler Swift if she poked me in the eye with a sharp stick, but I know about economics and a £1bn boost from a short tour is exceptional.  Know any dancer that can do that?

 

https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/2024/gold-rush-taylor-swifts-billion-pound-boost-to-the-british-economy#:~:text=The Eras Tour is estimated,it visits in the UK.

[Meliss]

1 hour ago, lmspear said:

I believe Frank Sinatra outranked Igor  Youskevitch, and Elvis Presley outranked Jacques d'Amboise, and according to John Lennon the Beatles were more famous than God.  

The average balletomane will know all these names. The average member of the public will only know the singers.

No one disputes that pop music is more popular than ballet. But to claim on this basis that Winehouse is more famous than Godunov is still ridiculous.

[Fraildove]

If you were to ask most current professional dancers and upper level, pre-professional students, especially in Western Europe and the United States who Alexander Godunov is/was, most would not know. They know Amy Winehouse. And Baryshnikov and Nureyev. I am currently at my son’s ballet school in Germany (considered one of the best schools in the world). I would be happy to ask his classmates if you would like me to take a poll? Not being snarky but I’m curious as well. 

[Meliss]

25 minutes ago, Mashinka said:

Yes, I'm completely serious..  I wouldn't recognize Tayler Swift if she poked me in the eye with a sharp stick, but I know about economics and a £1bn boost from a short tour is exceptional.  Know any dancer that can do that?

https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/2024/gold-rush-taylor-swifts-billion-pound-boost-to-the-british-economy#:~:text= Тур Eras запланирован, он посетит Великобританию.

Not everything is measured by money. Besides, this is quite far from the statement "A singer will always become more famous than a dancer". 

Edited July 11 by Meliss

[Meliss]

17 minutes ago, Fraildove said:

If you were to ask most current professional dancers and upper level, pre-professional students, especially in Western Europe and the United States who Alexander Godunov is/was, most would not know. They know Amy Winehouse. And Baryshnikov and Nureyev. I am currently at my son’s ballet school in Germany (considered one of the best schools in the world). I would be happy to ask his classmates if you would like me to take a poll? Not being snarky but I’m curious as well. 

SAMUEL MELNIKOV Нью-Йорк Сити Балет NYCB https://www.nycballet.com/discover/stories/meet-the-newest-dancers-in-nycbs-corps-de-ballet/

"An inspiration of mine since I was very young is Alexander Godunov. I remember being six or seven years old and watching videos of him dance. I couldn’t believe the strength and power he had when dancing. My dad came as a refugee from the Soviet Union, making me a first generation Russian American. I remember watching Flight 222, which is loosely based on Godunov’s defection. It led me to watch more documentaries about him; I think the movies helped me to better understand my heritage".