Alexander Godunov, unique and unforgettable

[lmspear]

4 hours ago, Meliss said:

The context was as follows: "A singer will always become more famous than a dancer because of record sales". It can't be true, because any singer can't be more famous than any dancer.

Because of record (recorded music) sales every singer (with a record) would be more famous than every dancer.

Edited July 12 by lmspear

[lmspear]

4 hours ago, Meliss said:

Oh no, it's too sad.

Sometimes you have to do the math to prove your point.

[Meliss]

2 hours ago, lmspear said:

Because of record (recorded music) sales every singer (with a record) would be more famous than every dancer.

We didn't talk about every singer and every dancer)).

[Helene]

The context was Winehouse’s popularity and name recognition vs. Godunov’s, if you follow the conversation.  The number of people who have seen a Godunov performance, video of his dancing, or documentary is dwarfed by the number of people who have paid for a single Winehouse album, let alone have been exposed to her through advertising, mainstream and social media, the Grammy awards, streaming algorithms, background music in restaurants, etc. or have paid for a different album.

Winehouse’s Back to Black video on YouTube alone has 1.13 billion views.  One video.

 

[lmspear]

A late entry, Patrick Swayze

From the Biography.com website, https://www.biography.com/actors/patrick-swayze

     In 1972, Swayze traveled to New York City to pursue a dance career. He began training with the Harkness and Joffrey Ballet companies, and was soon hired as a principal dancer with the Eliot Feld Ballet Company. However, his success was cut short when an old football injury required that he undergo knee surgery. The operation, coupled with the infection that followed, caused Swayze to leave the prestigious Feld Company.

So Swaye had a good start at a legitimate career in the ballet world, but if he hadn't been sidelined into Hollywood this would have never been possible:

[On Pointe]

In terms of relative fame,  there is also the effect of time.  Godunov died many years ago.  Winehouse died recently, and despite her prominence as a singer,  I was scarcely aware of her as a musician.  To me,  she was famous as the latest member of the "27 Club",  music stars who died at the age of twenty-seven - Jimi Hendrix,  Kurt Cobain,  Janis Joplin and others.    As hard as it may be to believe,  given the world-wide hysteria,  there are millions upon millions of people who never listen to Taylor Swift.  Fandom is "siloed",  not universal.  

Ballet is a niche interest,  not that there's anything wrong with that!  We've devoted many pages to discussing a dancer most of the world knows nothing about.  Ballet dancers are far more prominent in Russian popular culture than they are in western countries.  There is little interest here in interrogating the non-mysterious death of Godunov,  as sad as it was.

[Helene]

I've been reading a popular fiction book that is one of Amazon First Reads, free to Amazon Prime members, called "Friends with Secrets", which has a number of real-life cultural references along with the ubiquitous "Who is your favorite Jane Austen male character" meme.  Just this morning, I read this:

Quote

Her reaction reminded Nikki of the obsessive crush she'd on Mikhail Baryshnikov at [her niece's] age.  Although she had never met, or spoken to, the famous Soviet-born ballet dancer, she'd known in her heart that his age presented the real obstacle to their love.

This would place the timeline right at the end of Baryshnikov's ballet career, which was a decade before he appeared on Sex and the City.

Re: Godunov's health and death, the first ICD was published in 1994 the year before Godunov's death.  ICD-10 was published in 2018 (and has since been replaced with ICD-11).  2018 was just a few years after alcohol medicine as a sub-specialty was first recognized in the US, after the first accredited residencies occurred five years before that.  Diagnoses change over time: it wasn't until 2013, with DSM-5, that homosexuality, explicitly or lightly veiled, ceased to be a disease.  That makes the chances that the ICD-10 language on alcohol diagnostics was present and generally accepted in 1994 very, very slim. 

Since where there is privilege and a robust medical system, a primary care physician would have medical history, their own observations, physical examination results, in-office test results, lab results, diagnostic tools, results of consultation with specialists they referred the patient to, and, possibly journal articles and reports of the latest research, conference presentations, professional discussions with experts, etc. over time.  If the physician is also a friend of the patient, they would have access to observe their patient in social settings.  that is a lot more information than public would ever be privy to without it being released by the person's executor or spokesperson, as it should be, by US confidentiality standards. 

By 1995, the Soviet Union had been dissolved for a few years.  If Godunov had been unhappy about his medical care in LA, there's no reason he wouldn't have been able to go anywhere in the world for treatment, aside from the handful of countries where US citizens were forbidden to go without express permission.  Plus communication with his family would not have been blocked, if both parties wanted it.

 

 

[Meliss]

2 hours ago, Helene said:

If Godunov had been unhappy about his medical care in LA, there's no reason he wouldn't have been able to go anywhere in the world for treatment,

Yes. It follows that he was pleased. And if (if only!) he had been diagnosed with alcoholism then, he would have, of course, immediately begun treatment.

2 hours ago, Helene said:

Plus communication with his family would not have been blocked, if both parties wanted it.

When was it blocked?

[Helene]

I haven't seen anywhere in official news that family communication was blocked.  There weren't political reasons for those obstacles, like there had been under Soviet times.

[On Pointe]

6 hours ago, Meliss said:

And if (if only!) he had been diagnosed with alcoholism then, he would have, of course, immediately begun treatment.

Not necessarily.  Alcoholics are alcoholics because they like drinking.  That's why it's so difficult to treat,  as with other addictive diseases.  Unfortunately there are no "do overs" when heavy drinking reaches the chronic stage.

[Meliss]

8 hours ago, Helene said:

I haven't seen anywhere in official news that family communication was blocked.  There weren't political reasons for those obstacles, like there had been under Soviet times.

Neither have I. Alexander often wrote letters to his relatives and sometimes phoned them. He also send parcels but they were not received by his brother's words.

[Drew]

I posted this video from youtube last night thinking I was on this thread about Godunov as a dancer, but gummed it up and put it under "News!"  and then deleted when I realized what I had done.  It seems to me that when discussing how little video of Godunov there is, this particular video comparing 10 Basilio variations was not mentioned. I am a bit dubious of these comparison videos partly because I am always dubious about video (though I watch it) and partly because the where/when circumstances of the taping are not comparable -- the Godunov variation looks to me as if it were done for television, so probably not on the best stage for ballet.

But characteristics of his dancing that have been discussed here recently (also under the "aesthetics" discussion), especially as compared with other male dancers both of his era and our own, are on show here. He is not the cleanest in showing classical form and not the most flexible--so certain elements are not articulated as they are with many of the other Basilios--but he is fast and he is fierce and he is really dancing. Almost like a character dancer. The flying hair is not my thing, but it does strike a memory chord of a certain kind of Bolshoi dancing one doesn't see much anymore. The Godunov variation starts at about 5:27:

 

 

[Mashinka]

He's fast, but Lavrovsky is even faster.

[Meliss]

Yoko Ichino is splashing Johan Renwall. That tour was clearly not boring for all of them. It's the summer of 1982.

[Meliss]

This is Alexander Godunov and Tara Bowles, 1981.

 

 

Who is Tara Bowles? Do you happen to know?

[Meliss]

https://vk.com/public221123399?z=video-221123399_456239128%2F90076d9f11757c8d7d%2Fpl_wall_-221123399

Edited November 2 by Meliss

[Meliss]

Why do you think Godunov, who came to the United States 4 years later than Baryshnikov, received citizenship much earlier than he did?

[Helene]

Some possibilities in general are personal choice,  the differences between when  green card holders meet the citizenship requirement (ex: physical residency requirements),  the result of bureaucracy, or a combination of any of these.  PR status lasts 10 years before it needs to be renewed, and the people who don't apply for citizenship as soon as they are eligible, but choose to remain permanent residents for the rest of the ten years, might apply for citizenship instead of choosing to renew their green card for another ten years.  There's a also a delay between applying for citizenship, getting the test appointment, and being sworn in as a citizen, which can be very different by geographic area.  According to Vanity Fair, Baryshnikov was sworn in on Ellis Island

In the personal choice category, from a 1985 article in Time Magazine:

Quote

Says a friend who has known him since 1975: “This is one immigrant who took immigration very seriously.” He has applied for American citizenship and has no thoughts of returning to the Soviet Union. “I have an American child,” he says, speaking of Shura, 4, his daughter with Actress Jessica Lange. “It still amazes me that she talks without a Russian accent. I thought it was genetic.”

Godunov became an American citizen in 1987, according to his obituary in the New York Times.  Without an exception by Congress, you need to be a permanent resident of the US for five years before you can apply for US citizenship, and that timeline suggests he applied as soon as he was able, given the time it takes to process getting a green card,  the time to process the citizenship applications, waiting for the appointment to take a test, and the time it takes to get a slot to be sworn in.  So those 7-8 years between defection and citizenship followed the "shortest path" route.

[Meliss]

1 hour ago, Helene said:

he applied as soon as he was able,

Why did not Baryshnikov do the same?

[volcanohunter]

My guess would be that because Baryshnikov traveled the world so much performing as a guest artist and shooting movies (White Nights was filmed in Europe), it may have taken him longer to fulfill the minimum residence requirement.

I also remember that his citizenship ceremony was quite a public event, coinciding with the centenary of the Statue of Liberty in New York harbor. As Helene noted, his citizenship ceremony took place on Ellis Island, the historical arrival point for European immigrants to the United States, and the following day, on 4 July 1986, he performed a duet from Balanchine’s Who Cares? at the foot of the statue, in the presence of Ronald and Nancy Reagan, as part of the televised Independence Day/Statue of Liberty centenary celebration, complete with traditional fireworks and a massive regata. (Ships from allied navies came from far and wide to participate.) Baryshnikov, as one of the most famous recent immigrants to the United States, may have been persuaded that his participation as a freshly sworn-in citizen would have been the icing on the celebration's cake.

(I didn't watch the telecast, as I spent that evening strolling through less crowded areas of Manhattan, but I remember that footage of it was included in a subsequent 20/20 interview with Barbara Walters around the time that Dancers was released.)

[Helene]

Maybe someone day he'll speak about it.  It's really not our business unless he makes it our business.

[Meliss]

20 hours ago, volcanohunter said:

My guess would be that because Baryshnikov traveled the world so much performing as a guest artist and shooting movies (White Nights was filmed in Europe), it may have taken him longer to fulfill the minimum residence requirement.

I also remember that his citizenship ceremony was quite a public event, coinciding with the centenary of the Statue of Liberty in New York harbor. As Helene noted, his citizenship ceremony took place on Ellis Island, the historical arrival point for European immigrants to the United States, and the following day, on 4 July 1986, he performed a duet from Balanchine’s Who Cares? at the foot of the statue, in the presence of Ronald and Nancy Reagan, as part of the televised Independence Day/Statue of Liberty centenary celebration, complete with traditional fireworks and a massive regata. (Ships from allied navies came from far and wide to participate.) Baryshnikov, as one of the most famous recent immigrants to the United States, may have been persuaded that his participation as a freshly sworn-in citizen would have been the icing on the celebration's cake.

(I didn't watch the telecast, as I spent that evening strolling through less crowded areas of Manhattan, but I remember that footage of it was included in a subsequent 20/20 interview with Barbara Walters around the time that Dancers was released.)

 

19 hours ago, Helene said:

Maybe someone day he'll speak about it.  It's really not our business unless he makes it our business.

It's just weird that he'd been thinking for so long).

[Helene]

There’s no evidence as to when he was eligible and whether there was any lag time to think between eligibility and application, or whether it was delayed to be part of the big public ceremony.  If he did spend time thinking about it, that wouldn’t be weird at all, but an individual choice.  Again, not our business.

[volcanohunter]

Citizenship applications aren't processed and approved as quickly as may be supposed, and it can vary from region to region. There was a time when applications in Canada were delayed significantly in some parts of the country because the federal government and some provincial governments were at odds politically. So one of the ways the prime minister retaliated was to delay the appointment of citizenship judges to conduct the citizenship oaths in areas that voted for the prime minister's political opponents, leaving people who had successfully completed their applications to wait and wait...

Edited December 1 by volcanohunter

[Fraildove]

I’m also curious if their defections also made a difference? Baryshnikov defected in Canada, Godunov directly to the US. Also, Baryshnikov was so sought after internationally he may not have known where he would eventually settle, delaying his application for citizenship. Of course this is all just speculation…