About Style and Aesthetics - Baryshnikov and Godunov

[Drew]

43 minutes ago, Meliss said:

Then I don't understand what you meant by the following:

 

She belongs to a different era. In her era dancers were not necessarily expected to be as thin as they consistently are today. So her weight was fine even when she weighed more than in the picture you posted. There WERE some very slender dancers in that era but it was not the consistent norm.
 

I don’t understand why the larger point is puzzling to you even if you think I am wrong about Plisetskaya specifically. Look at video of Bolshoi dancers from the 1950s and 60s (men as well as women). Do you see no difference overall? Well, perhaps you won’t see a difference, but I and many others do. The dance critic Anna Kisselgoff asked Sergei Filin at a public event in New York in 2014 why the men in the company look so different than they had during the tours of the sixties, seventies etc. (on the whole —not every single male dancer —on the whole) —he did not deny the differences in the least, but made several comments about the different demands of the contemporary repertory and talked about changing generations. I was at this event and heard the exchange. She even specifically asked whether the training of the men had changed, though he did not say anything about that. 

The pendulum can swing back again, too, but if you strongly believe that there is no difference between the way dancers looked and danced in the 1960s and 70s and the way they look and dance today, nothing I say will change your mind. Maybe the differences are not that important—some fans hate them, others don’t worry about it much— and yes, classical foundations remain the same over time. But I (and others) see differences -which is not, in this case, a criticism of past dancers. So I will say for the LAST time that I think the ‘golden age’ Bolshoi dancers were magnificent. I could wish to see another Vladimir Vasiliev at the Bolshoi! (Which doesn’t mean I don’t admire some of their current dancers or that some of them don’t remind me of previous Bolshoi generations at times.) But if it is not clear that I am PRAISING Plisetskaya—that I prefer her Kitri to Zakharova’s—then there is no more to say.
 

 

 

[Meliss]

2 hours ago, On Pointe said:

This was in Chicago,  at the Arie Crown theater,  during one of the first western tours of the Bolshoi.  I was very young and I do not recall who Plisetskaya's partner was. 

Thank you. The Bolshoi Theatre toured the USA in 1973, 1974 and 1979.

[Meliss]

38 minutes ago, Drew said:

So her weight was fine

Why should you mention it in the context like this then - "I am hard put to think that her weight would be acceptable in today's Bolshoi"?

Edited July 27 by Meliss

[Meliss]

20 minutes ago, Drew said:

Look at video of Bolshoi dancers from the 1950s and 60s (men as well as women). Do you see no difference overall?

Godunov did not belong to these generations. I can't understand what was wrong with his aesthetics and style. He looks quite modern in all the videos. So does his dancing.

[Helene]

Most of the Bolshoi ballerinas we've seen in the 21st century tours have been a lot, lot thinner, and few in the corps looked like her.

To some of our eyes, including back when we saw him live in the '80's, Godunov looked dated.  If a dancer's style is significantly different, the audience watching them decides whether they think that is a good thing or not.

 

[Meliss]

On 7/18/2024 at 6:02 AM, Drew said:

Plisetskaya often seems magnificent by comparison with many of today's dancers; but she doesn't fit the current aesthetic even at the Bolshoi.

And what can you say about such aesthetics?

[Meliss]

7 minutes ago, Helene said:

To some of our eyes, including back when we saw him live in the '80's, Godunov looked dated.

Did Vladimir Vasiliev or Mikhail Lavrovsky look dated?

[nanushka]

23 minutes ago, Meliss said:

Why should you mention it in the context like this then - "I am hard put to think that her weight would be acceptable in today's Bolshoi"?

I think the relevant context of the comment you’re quoting was a comparison with Zakharova, who very much represents the modern aesthetic.

[Helene]

To me, Vasiliev and Liepa, no, even when Vasiliev was dancing Spartacus, which is a period piece.  I don't know Lavrovsky's dancing well enough to comment.

I don't think that Plisetskaya's dancing looks dated, aside from Carmen, which is a period piece.

However, physically, neither Vasiliev nor Liepa are significantly different physically from today's male dancers for it to have made a difference.  Not only are ballerinas held to ridiculous standards of thinness, the children auditioning for the two elite schools are, as well as extreme levels of flexibility.  The point is that she might not be even accepted into the Bolshoi school today and her talent might never have seen the light of day. 

[Drew]

41 minutes ago, Meliss said:

Why should you mention it in the context like this then - "I am hard put to think that her weight would be acceptable in today's Bolshoi?

Because her Bolshoi was NOT today’s Bolshoi. That is my whole point. Perhaps @Helene’s comments can help you too.

35 minutes ago, Meliss said:

Godunov did not belong to these generations. I can't understand what was wrong with his aesthetics and style. He looks quite modern in all the videos. So does his dancing.

You are right. I purposely chose a more extreme example to make the general point clearer. (You probably also noticed I had good things to say about the Raymonda video you posted.) But to me Godunov still seems more like the older generation. I have explained why in my comments on the Basilio video (under Dancers) and won’t repeat it here. I actually think in the Raymonda video, he is dancing in a more controlled way—and the Basilio video is more exciting to me. And once more I have not said anything is “wrong” with his aesthetics. For me, point is not what taste is ‘right’ and what taste is ‘wrong.’ Different tastes….
 

Years ago, on this site, I posted about how much I loved Makarova’s Odette/Odile —I did not expect much disagreement. But several people posted that they disliked the way she distorted the musical tempos, danced ultra slowly etc. This did not at all change my own view of Makarova’s greatness in Swan Lake. But when I looked at video and thought about it, it did make me better understand why others might not love her as I did.  Though honestly it still puzzles me a little! (And since I was knocking Zakharova’s Kitri above, let me say that the last time I saw the Bolshoi live—2019 London tour—she was a ravishing Odette and exciting Odile!)

Edited July 27 by Drew

[Meliss]

32 minutes ago, nanushka said:

I think the relevant context of the comment you’re quoting was a comparison with Zakharova, who very much represents the modern aesthetic.

And what has her weight to do with it?

[Meliss]

23 minutes ago, Drew said:

Because her Bolshoi was NOT today’s Bolshoi.

I think dancers like Plisetskaya or Godunov are timeless. Their art is eternal and I hope it will never become outdated.

 

[Meliss]

1 hour ago, Helene said:

To me, Vasiliev and Liepa, no

So, Vasiliev and Liepa were not outdated, and Godunov, who was ten years younger than them and danced, according to many the Bolshoi dancers, better - was outdated. No one knows why. Apparently, just because you liked Liepa and Vasiliev. The administrator of one of our ballet forums writes the following: "Vasiliev and Liepa were already well-promoted in Soviet times. With all the power of unforgettable Soviet television.

As for me, I think that the technique of the three of them was about the same level, but Godunov was younger and really danced better than anyone at the Bolshoi Theater at that time. But besides technique, you also need a soul, dedication, charisma and scenic beauty. Here - and this is not only my opinion - Godunov was out of competition. And if Liepa could compare with him in appearance, then Vasiliev - of course not, which is why he disliked Godunov. For example, everyone admired Godunov's jumps, and only Vasiliev stated that Godunov's balloon was visible only in the rehearsal room, but not on stage. Why he thought so is again a mystery).

[Drew]

35 minutes ago, Meliss said:

And what has her weight to do with it?

Many observers believe that it impacts appearance and line, though they may disagree about the point at which it makes a difference.  Others think it shouldn’t have anything to do with ballet aesthetics at all.  As I understand, Balanchine cared very much that his ballerinas remained below a certain weight and, based on the dancers Vaziev hires and casts, I am willing to bet that the current Director of the Bolshoi feels similarly.

I think most fans have dancers or performances they experience as timeless or as close to timeless as it is possible to be even if they don’t always fully agree on who those dancers, or what those performances, are. I do. But I also don’t think any dancer can be completely timeless —or placeless— because great dancers are embedded in the traditions that formed them even if they go on to transform those traditions. Part of their greatness IS their specificity. When one reads a great nineteenth-century novel, one can feel that the conventions are of its time—no one is going to write like George Eliot anymore—but it doesn’t make the writings less great.

 

 

[Meliss]

3 minutes ago, Drew said:

I also don’t think any dancer can be completely timeless

Of course, nothing is absolute. But still, they are great to always remain necessary and relevant.

[Drew]

2 minutes ago, Meliss said:

Of course, nothing is absolute. But still, they are great to always remain necessary and relevant.

This we can agree on .

[Helene]

I've removed references to other ballet forums.  Once again, please read this site's rules and policies and abide by them:

Technique is not the only thing that dates a dancer: style does as well.  I prefer Liepa and Vasiliev because of their style and technique: I don't think they have better style and technique because I like them.  I don't think Godunov is a bad dancer: I just don't like his style or love his technique, but, in general, shorter men have the advantage technically, and both Liepa and Vasiliev were shorter. 

From a Dance Magazine article when Vasiliev was 70:

Quote

His most famous role was Spartacus in Grigorovich’s ballet of the same name. Looking back, Vasiliev said (in an e-mail interview translated by Marina Panfilovich), “His choice of me for the title role was unexpected. In previous versions, Spartacus was a tall man to person­ify strength and superiority. I was never that tall in life. But stage is a strange thing: It can make tall men seem small and vice versa. When I danced Spartacus abroad, sometimes the audience would not believe it was me when meeting the artists at the stage door, as they expected the big man I was onstage.”

Liepa appears to be in his height range from film.  The headline of his obituary in the New York Times reads, "Maris Liepa, 52, Dies in Moscow; Bolshoi Star Was Popular in West"  I'm from the West, so that might explains why his aesthetic appeals to me far more than Godunov's.

 

[Meliss]

32 minutes ago, Helene said:

  I prefer Liepa and Vasiliev because of their style and technique: I don't think they have better style and technique because I like them.  I don't think Godunov is a bad dancer: I just don't like his style

Do you think all three of them had different styles?

[Meliss]

According to dictionaries, style is a stable set of means and techniques of artistic expression.

Here's what we can read on Wikipedia about the style of the famous ballerina Anna Pavlova:

"At the height of Petipa's strict academicism, the public was taken aback by Pavlova's style, a combination of a gift that paid little heed to academic rules: she frequently performed with bent knees, bad turnout, misplaced port de bras and incorrectly placed tours. Such a style, in many ways, harked back to the time of the romantic ballet and the great ballerinas of old". https://translated.turbopages.org/proxy_u/en-ru.ru.d8c34b4a-66a56fda-2e22dba1-74722d776562/https/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Pavlova

And at the same time, she was a brilliant dancer. How is that? Well, all right. She had charisma. Godunov had one too, and what a one! And his technique was much better. Were critics not so picky before?

[Helene]

Whether individuals see charisma is personal.  I didn't find Godunov charismatic. Other people did/do. When others were praising other Imperial Ballet ballerinas, Balanchine preferred Gerdt, who has been described as cool or cold, and that is usually my preference, too. 

[On Pointe]

Wow,  I must be old - I may be the only one here who saw ALL of the dancers under discussion here perform live.  In addition,  I attended classes taught by guest teachers Plisetskaya,  Maris Liepa,  and Plisetskaya's uncle Asaf Messerer.  Plisetskaya was considered tall for the time,  but she was only about 5'6".  She was not at all "heavy",  but all Bolshoi ballerinas back then had fuller thighs than they have now.  She actually grew slimmer as she got older. Plisetskaya had an extraordinary face,  not beautiful,  but striking,  with a long chin,  high cheekbones and big eyes.  She was a very emphatic teacher.  She had a translator,  but she got her point across just fine by demonstrating,  accompanied by guttural utterances in Russian.  She was also,  like the others,  constantly monitored by Russian men that we assumed were KGB agents,  but maybe we were just being melodramatic!

There are videos on YouTube of current graduating classes at the Bolshoi and the Vaganova schools,  and both schools have dancers who are taller and heavier than we have seen from the Russians in the recent past.  I don't know if those girls got contracts.  For that matter,  I've seen videos of a few girls at SAB who are way heavier than current NYCBallet dancers.  Weight is a very touchy issue,  so teachers may be reluctant to advise students to lose weight.  Or they may be afraid to.  

[On Pointe]

7 hours ago, Meliss said:

Thank you. The Bolshoi Theatre toured the USA in 1973, 1974 and 1979.

The Bolshoi toured the US a decade before then.

[Marta]

On Pointe said:   Plisetskaya was considered tall for the time,  but she was only about 5'6".  She was not at all "heavy",  but all Bolshoi ballerinas back then had fuller thighs than they have now.  She actually grew slimmer as she got older. Plisetskaya had an extraordinary face,  not beautiful,

   I saw Plisetskaya dance when she was over 60. After the performance I stood about 6  feet away from her at a reception.  I was frozen to the spot in awe of her  presence.  Her face was extraordinary, beautiful  and very distinctive.  I wouldn't have said she was even 5' 6" but maybe she lost height with age.  Photographs of her from the 50s to the 80s clearly show that she grew slimmer.

[Drew]

First I wanted to mention to @On Pointe that French Historians on social media claim Moulin Rouge dancers are supposed to look messy (or, as one said,  "they are not the robotic Rockettes")---and that they knew what they were doing in their can-can. I have no way to evaluate these comments and am not curious enough to try a deep dive on my own.

More on topic: it's great that you got not only to see but to study with such dancers and artists.

[On Pointe]

2 hours ago, Drew said:

First I wanted to mention to @On Pointe that French Historians on social media claim Moulin Rouge dancers are supposed to look messy (or, as one said,  "they are not the robotic Rockettes")---and that they knew what they were doing in their can-can. I have no way to evaluate these comments and am not curious enough to try a deep dive on my own.

More on topic: it's great that you got not only to see but to study with such dancers and artists.

From the 1952 film,  Moulin Rouge,  the can can,  messy,  but alive: