About Style and Aesthetics - Baryshnikov and Godunov

[Meliss]

I have read that  many Americans did not like the Bolshoi ballet style and that is why they preferred Baryshnikov to Godunov. Is that really so? Could anyone explain the stylistic and aesthetics difference between these dancers?

[dirac]

Welcome to the board, Meliss, and thanks for posting. When you have a moment, please introduce yourself in the Welcome forum, we'd love to know more about how you came to Ballet Alert!l

Potentially a wide-ranging topic. Where did you read that, BTW?

[On Pointe]

On 6/11/2024 at 11:09 AM, Meliss said:

I have read that  many Americans did not like the Bolshoi ballet style and that is why they preferred Baryshnikov to Godunov. Is that really so? Could anyone explain the stylistic and aesthetics difference between these dancers?

Many Americans loved the old Bolshoi style,  which was very different from that of the Kirov Ballet.  (The Kirov reclaimed its historical name of the Maryinsky Ballet after the cold war.). But we loved the Kirov too.  These days the two companies are much more similar,  but when we first got a look at them in the west,  the Bolshoi,  which literally means "big" in Russian,  was known for its bold,  emphatic performance style,  while the Kirov was more classically pure.

That said,  while Godunov was an effective performer,  he simply was not in the same class as Baryshnikov,  who was a truly great dancer.  Both of them were good movie actors.  Based on his performance in Witness,  if Godunov hadn't succumbed to chronic illness,  he might have become a major film star.

[Meliss]

23 hours ago, dirac said:

please introduce yourself in the Welcome forum

Potentially a wide-ranging topic. Where did you read that, BTW?

I did. And I read that somewhere here, on your forum.

[dirac]

Thank you!

If you could find the original post with that observation I'd love to see it.

[Meliss]

3 hours ago, On Pointe said:

Many Americans loved the old Bolshoi style,  which was very different from that of the Kirov Ballet.  (The Kirov reclaimed its historical name of the Maryinsky Ballet after the cold war.). But we loved the Kirov too.  These days the two companies are much more similar,  but when we first got a look at them in the west,  the Bolshoi,  which literally means "big" in Russian,  was known for its bold,  emphatic performance style,  while the Kirov was more classically pure.

That said,  while Godunov was an effective performer,  he simply was not in the same class as Baryshnikov,  who was a truly great dancer.  Both of them were good movie actors.  Based on his performance in Witness,  if Godunov hadn't succumbed to chronic illness,  he might have become a major film star.

Thank you very much for your answer. I understand that it's very difficult to discuss the so called 'class' of these dancers, but I have read a lot of special literature on ballet and can say that a lot of quite reputable ballet dancers and critics think Godunov was a great dancer, the same level as Nureev  and Baryshnikov in technique. And of course he surpassed both of them in beauty and elegance, didn't he? The famous Maya Plisetskaya chose him as her partner in all the performances she danced in the 1970s. Besides, if he were not so good as Misha, why should Lucia Chase pay him more than any other principal dancer?

Edited Monday at 07:06 PM by Meliss

[On Pointe]

6 hours ago, Meliss said:

I understand that it's very difficult to discuss the so called 'class' of these dancers, but I have read a lot of special literature on ballet and can say that a lot of quite reputable ballet dancers and critics think Godunov was a great dancer, the same level as Nureev  and Baryshnikov in technique. And of course he surpassed both of them in beauty and elegance, didn't he?

The short answer is no.  Godunov got a lot of mileage out of the spectacular way he defected from the Soviet Union.  He was a goodlooking guy,  but as for beauty and elegance,  in my opinion,  he wasn't in the same league as the other two.  Nureyev especially had a stage beauty to die for.  And while Godunov's technique was good,  it wasn't heart stopping.  But he was taller than the other two,  and no doubt his height influenced Plisetskaya.  She wouldn't be considered tall these days,  but in her heyday she was definitely a bigger ballerina.

[Helene]

The US public may have liked the Bolshoi, but the Kirov was considered the standard for technique and refinement.  Baryshnikov was considered the technical gold standard as soon as he set foot on the American stage, and the other men were compared, almost always unfavorably except for Nureyev, to him. He made the most of being a short man, and it's difficult for tall men to have nearly the same facility, let alone the physical proportions.  It became an issue for Baryshnikov when he became AD of ABT to replace himself and have the public accept it, although I preferred Radojevic to him in most things, because if it wasn't something Baryshnikov was interested in, like the Tharp works and the White Oak Project, I found his performances increasingly indifferent.

I'm not sure any of the former Bolshoi dancers were accepted overwhelmingly in NYC until Osipova and Vasiliev were pushed front and center by Ratmansky in Moscow, certainly not the way Nureyev, Makarova, and Baryshnikov were.  And, of course, by then, they didn't need the defector narrative.

 

[Meliss]

12 hours ago, On Pointe said:

short answer is no.  Godunov got a lot of mileage out of the spectacular way he defected from the Soviet Union.  He was a goodlooking guy,  but as for beauty and elegance,  in my opinion,  he wasn't in the same league as the other two.  Nureyev especially had a stage beauty to die for.  And while Godunov's technique was good,  it wasn't heart stopping.  But he was taller than the other two,  and no doubt his height influenced Plisetskaya.  She wouldn't be considered tall these days,  but in her heyday she was definitely a bigger ballerina.

Thank you very much for your opinion. It's OK. May be someone can't see beauty and elegance here.  

As for Plisetskaya, she was not tall, just 167 cm. 

[Helene]

Beauty and elegance in a staged photograph is different than seeing someone in motion without edits.

From what I saw live, Godunov was a fine dancer, and he had his own presence, but he was not someone I would describe with extra superlatives.  But he also, as the saying goes, not chopped liver, either.

[Meliss]

12 hours ago, Helene said:

The US public may have liked the Bolshoi, but the Kirov was considered the standard for technique and refinement.  Baryshnikov was considered the technical gold standard as soon as he set foot on the American stage, and the other men were compared, almost always unfavorably except for Nureyev,

 

Doesn't it seem strange to you? Why there is no "technical gold standard" for ballerinas, for example? Why do we think that there are a lot of great ballerinas: Ulanova, Plisetskaya, Pavlova, Evdokimova, Alonso, Fonteyn, Gregory, Ferry and others? Why only Nureev and Baryshnikov, but not any other top men dancers?

[Meliss]

8 minutes ago, Helene said:

Beauty and elegance in a staged photograph is different than seeing someone in motion without edits.

From what I saw live, Godunov was a fine dancer, and he had his own presence, but he was not someone I would describe with extra superlatives.  But he also, as the saying goes, not chopped liver, either.

Thank you very much for your answer. Such photos catch the beauty of motion, but of course, it would be much better to see videos. Godunov danced with ABT for 3 years: a lot of different ballets and performances. Now we can't watch practically nothing of them (but Raymonda). I wonder why. Is ABT not interested at all in preserving its history? Hasn't Susan Jaffe the video of her famous debut?  If some people have the videos, why don't they show them? I am not speaking about Godunov's personal archive which disappeared instead of being given to his relatives.

[lmspear]

When I think of great, male dancers of the Bolshoi the first name that pops into my head Vladimir Vasiliev. The combination of talent and charisma is there. In addition to being great dancers, Nureyev and Baryshnikov were really crossover stars, appearing in films, tv specials, and gossip columns.

Edited Tuesday at 03:50 PM by lmspear
Clarity

[On Pointe]

I had the privilege of seeing all of these dancers perform many times.  I attended a master class taught by Plisetskaya,  and I spent a little time at an art museum chatting with Godunov,  who was a very friendly and charming person.  The wonder is that we had four such amazing dancers,  who engaged the general public,  performing in the same time frame.  That kind of high wattage stardom is inconceivable now.  Ballet needs big personalities,  and right now,  we have lots of beautifully trained technicians,  but no stars like that.

[Meliss]

8 minutes ago, lmspear said:

When I think of great, male dancers of the Bolshoi the first name that pops into my head Vladimir Vasiliev. The combination of talent and charisma is there. In addition to being great dancers, Nureyev and Baryshnikov were really crossover stars, appearing in films, tv specials, and gossip columns.

I agree that Vasiliev was a great dancer. Evidently, his problem is that he didn't often appear in gossip columns)).

[Helene]

Baryshnikov, Makarova, and  Godunov danced for American Ballet Theatre, which morphed into the company that presented full length classical ballets after a transition from its origins of presenting new, short ballets.  This is not in the context of New York City Ballet, where the women were the gold standard, not the men as a rule -- Villela was an outlier in his time -- based on the ballets Balanchine created for them at NYCB and the predecessor companies:  Marie Jeanne ,Patricia Wilde,  Maria Tallchief, Melissa Hayden, Tanaquil LeClerq, Gelsey Kirkland, Suzanne Farrell, Merrill Ashley, etc. in Balanchine's lifetime.

Christopher Gable said in his chapter in Striking a Balance that when the men of the Royal Ballet saw Nureyev dance, they knew they were out of their league.  Similarly in the US with Baryshnikov.  The technical standards of the men in the UK and North America were not nearly as strong in the '70's, even though the were improving due to Nureyev's example and the Ford Foundation grants to schools across the US.  At the same time, the women were far more advanced than the men, partly because there were so many of them vying for the same spots, and partly because the great choreographers of the time, Balanchine and Ashton, focused so much on them and made ballets that showcased their strengths.  With Ashton, that included his versions of classical ballets, while Balanchine limited himself to Swan Lake Act II and the first two acts of Coppelia, which Danilova staged, aside from the male solo that Balanchine created for the Danish-trained Helgi Tomasson.

After Nureyev and Baryshnikov, the technical standard in the Americas caught up fast, and it wasn't just Nureyev and Baryshnikov for long.  The Danes, for example, thrived at NYCB.  Godunov was at ABT at the time when he'd be under Baryshnikov's shadow, rather than riding the wave.  Ten or 15 years later, he wouldn't necessarily have been, but by then, there was an explosion of male talent from South America at ABT, and he might have been lost there.  He would not have had the defection story, but he wouldn't have had to give up his home country, which was back to Russia by then.  Although he could have been an alcoholic under those circumstances, too.

As far as videos are concerned, in the US, it is an expensive endeavor and requires the cooperation of unions.  If there was video that was not commercial, until recently, companies made videos for their own use, and they were of poor quality, certainly not anything that would be made public.  Had Godunov been dancing now, there would be plenty of video, on Instagram, in promos, as part of companies social media, etc.  However, in the context of the history of ABT, Godunov was a blip, not the center of its history.  Most of the people who were considered central to ABT's history have little footage to show for it.  The US was not like the Soviet Union: very little ballet was shown on US TV, and most of it was the occasional excerpt on now defunct variety shows, like Ed Sullivan.

 

[Meliss]

21 hours ago, Helene said:

  Godunov was at ABT at the time when he'd be under Baryshnikov's shadow, rather than riding the wave.  Ten or 15 years later, he wouldn't necessarily have been, but by then, there was an explosion of male talent from South America at ABT, and he might have been lost there.  He would not have had the defection story, but he wouldn't have had to give up his home country, which was back to Russia by then.  Although he could have been an alcoholic under those circumstances, too.

As far as videos are concerned, in the US, it is an expensive endeavor and requires the cooperation of unions.  If there was video that was not commercial, until recently, companies made videos for their own use, and they were of poor quality, certainly not anything that would be made public.  Had Godunov been dancing now, there would be plenty of video, on Instagram, in promos, as part of companies social media, etc.  However, in the context of the history of ABT, Godunov was a blip, not the center of its history.  Most of the people who were considered central to ABT's history have little footage to show for it.  The US was not like the Soviet Union: very little ballet was shown on US TV, and most of it was the occasional excerpt on now defunct variety shows, like Ed Sullivan.

 

Dear Helene, thank you very much for your detailed explanations. In general you are right, but...  Is it possible to prove Godunov was not the highest class dancer? Some American critics write he was unmusical. Why?? One has to doubt their competence.

I really want to understand the reasons for Baryshnikov's popularity. Could you please name his best ballet? I have seen a lot of his performances (there are many videos in spite of the problems with making them at that time), and I was not impressed by any. I am not a ballet expert, but ballet exists more for spectators than for critics.

And one more thing. Do you think ABT could have videos of poor quality with performances of that time? The quality of Corsaire with Gregory and Godunov is simply awful, but someone was kind enough to share it with us. A lot of people watch and enjoy it.

 

[Helene]

Fans and critics often disagree.  That makes neither incompetent.  People like what they like, and that doesn’t always align with the decisions artistic directors and choreographers make, who is chosen for videos, who is praised and why,  and otherwise promoted, profiled, and interviewed.  What is undeniable was how Baryshnikov’s technique and the impacts of his other other training, like in character dance, were phenomenally better than any other man dancing in NYC in a North American company that was not New York City Ballet at the time. You can’t manufacture animal magnetism that Nureyev had, even if that was what boys and young men studying dance would want, but they could always aspire to and train towards Baryshnikov’s technical standards.

 I found Baryshnikov best in the Tharp rep, because he was hungry to do that work, and it showed in his performances. People watched when he danced on TV, at a time when dance was on TV — Dance in America (in studio) , Great Performances (live) —  and ratings were important for TV producers.  Because of their quality, these recordings were sometimes made into stand-alone videos along with the occasional commercial video.  Baryshnikov was at the right place inpatient the right time, dance boom wise, which was a very small window of time, and he was lucky that Herbert Ross made the main stream movie The Turning Point, which increased his opportunities to make other mainstream movies.

As far as releasing any company video is concerned, aside from video offered publicly on their websites, promos, and social media that are part of existing contracts, unions, dancers, and management have to give waivers or negotiate terms for footage captured for any other reason, usually archival for company use, even if they want to.  However much we might want to see the footage, the people involved might not or can’t come to terms about it, and companies might not be interested in the release of it. It is not government-owned or controlled or part of the public good: it is privately owned.

[nanushka]

1 hour ago, Meliss said:

I really want to understand the reasons for Baryshnikov's popularity. Could you please name his best ballet? I have seen a lot of his performances (there are many videos in spite of the problems with making them at that time), and I was not impressed by any. I am not a ballet expert, but ballet exists more for spectators than for critics.

 

Here are some YouTube videos that take a close look at Baryshnikov's technique:

https://www.youtube.com/@KentGBecker/search?query=baryshnikov

Edited Wednesday at 04:23 PM by nanushka

[On Pointe]

1 hour ago, Meliss said:

And one more thing. Do you think ABT could have videos of poor quality with performances of that time? The quality of Corsaire with Gregory and Godunov is simply awful, but someone was kind enough to share it with us. A lot of people watch and enjoy it.

 

Technology has advanced rapidly in the last few decades.  Anyone with a cell phone has a video camera capable of high quality image capture that was unimaginable when Godunov,  Baryshnikov and Nureyev were dancing.  Equipment used back then was cumbersome and intrusive and expensive to operate.  There was also no preservational mindset to the extent that there is today.

It's likely that there is no video of Baryshnikov that will convince you of his greatness.  People like what they like.  Taylor Swift is the highest grossing tour artist in history,  but I find nothing distinctive about her and wouldn't attend one of her concerts even if the ticket was free.  But the average backup singer is a far better vocalist than Ms. Swift.  There was no dancer in the west with a technique comparable to Baryshnikov,  combined with his undeniable good looks,  and fierce hunger for the stage.  (That said,  I myself was a much bigger fan of Nureyev.)

As for a gold standard for ballerinas,  on her very informative channel,  Isabella McGuire Mayes makes the case for Ulyana Lopatkina.  Her quality is undeniable,  but she does nothing for me.  Your mileage may vary.

 

[Meliss]

1 hour ago, Helene said:

Fans and critics often disagree.  That makes neither incompetent.  People like what they like, and that doesn’t always align with the decisions artistic directors and choreographers make, who is chosen for videos, who is praised and why,  and otherwise promoted, profiled, and interviewed.  What is undeniable was how Baryshnikov’s technique and the impacts of his other other training, like in character dance, were phenomenally better than any other man dancing in NYC in a North American company that was not New York City Ballet at the time. You can’t manufacture animal magnetism that Nureyev had, even if that was what boys and young men studying dance would want, but they could always aspire to and train towards Baryshnikov’s technical standards.

 I found Baryshnikov best in the Tharp rep, because he was hungry to do that work, and it showed in his performances. People watched when he danced on TV, at a time when dance was on TV — Dance in America (in studio) , Great Performances (live) —  and ratings were important for TV producers.  Because of their quality, these recordings were sometimes made into stand-alone videos along with the occasional commercial video.  Baryshnikov was at the right place inpatient the right time, dance boom wise, which was a very small window of time, and he was lucky that Herbert Ross made the main stream movie The Turning Point, which increased his opportunities to make other mainstream movies.

As far as releasing any company video is concerned, aside from video offered publicly on their websites, promos, and social media that are part of existing contracts, unions, dancers, and management have to give waivers or negotiate terms for footage captured for any other reason, usually archival for company use, even if they want to.  However much we might want to see the footage, the people involved might not or can’t come to terms about it, and companies might not be interested in the release of it. It is not government-owned or controlled or part of the public good: it is privately owned.

Thank you once again. Yes, you are right that fans and critics often disagree, but as for Godunov, critics disagreed as well.

As for Baryshnikov and Godunov, we can often see in commentaries on YouTube something like that: "I thought Baryshnikov was great till I saw Godunov". I personally only heard the name of Baryshnikov in Rosen's film about Godunov, though I heard a lot about Nureev.

Thank you very much for your recommendation to watch Twyla Tharp's ballets with Baryshnikov. I have seen the famous «Push Comes to Shove». I know that Godunov also liked this ballet, but it was "only for Misha". It's a pity. It would be interesting to compare. 

And there is something I did not quite understand. "However much we might want to see the footage, the people involved might not or can’t come to terms about it, and companies might not be interested in the release of it. Why might they not be interested in the release of it? 

 

[Meliss]

1 hour ago, nanushka said:

 

Here are some YouTube videos that take a close look at Baryshnikov's technique:

https://www.youtube.com/@KentGBecker/search?query=baryshnikov

Thank you very much. I will watch the videos, it would be nice to exchange our opinions.

[Meliss]

1 hour ago, On Pointe said:

Technology has advanced rapidly in the last few decades.  Anyone with a cell phone has a video camera capable of high quality image capture that was unimaginable when Godunov,  Baryshnikov and Nureyev were dancing.  Equipment used back then was cumbersome and intrusive and expensive to operate.  There was also no preservational mindset to the extent that there is today.

It's likely that there is no video of Baryshnikov that will convince you of his greatness.  People like what they like.  Taylor Swift is the highest grossing tour artist in history,  but I find nothing distinctive about her and wouldn't attend one of her concerts even if the ticket was free.  But the average backup singer is a far better vocalist than Ms. Swift.  There was no dancer in the west with a technique comparable to Baryshnikov,  combined with his undeniable good looks,  and fierce hunger for the stage.  (That said,  I myself was a much bigger fan of Nureyev.)

Thank you. Yes, you are right, but we can see a lot of videos with Dowell, Bujones, Bruhn and other former ABT principals - but no Godunov at all (only Raymonda, I wonder who was that generous person who put it on the Internet). Isn't it strange?

I agree with you that tastes differ. But Bujones also could not understand why Misha was considered to dance better.  I wonder why he left the ABT soon after Godunov.

As for Baryshnikov's good looks... To my mind he shouldn't have put many of his photos on the Internet.

[link to unofficial site removed]

 

[Helene]

There will always be dancers who speak more than others to individual viewers, audience members and critics.  There are dancers that grow on people, where years later they appreciate them more, because what they look for and value has grown and changed.  There are dancers who must be seen in person and whose appeal does not come across on video, just like there are opera singers who don't sound good on recordings, but are wonderful live.  The opposite is true as well, and so are dancers who are great in the classroom, but don't come across nearly as well onstage, while others are okay in class, but are brilliant onstage.

For me, I've seen lots of film of Fonteyn, while only seeing her once live onstage, in her 50's or 60's as a guest artist with a visiting company as Lady Capulet.  I do not get what people saw in her on film, but I trust the people who've told me you need to have seen her live and that she was so much better on film.

Godunov might have been told that Push Comes to Shove (from 1976) was "only for Misha," but that wasn't true by the early '80's, after Baryshnikov's return to ABT and when Godunov was still with ABT, because I saw Danilo Radojevic, another shorter virtuoso dancer, dance it twice in 1982.  Tharp has always kept strict control over the rights and presentation of her works.

As far as why a company would not want to try to get all of the rights in line to publish sub-standard video, it could be because they don't want sub-standard video circulating. 

[Meliss]

On 6/18/2024 at 6:54 PM, On Pointe said:

I had the privilege of seeing all of these dancers perform many times.  I attended a master class taught by Plisetskaya,  and I spent a little time at an art museum chatting with Godunov,  who was a very friendly and charming person.  The wonder is that we had four such amazing dancers,  who engaged the general public,  performing in the same time frame.  That kind of high wattage stardom is inconceivable now.  Ballet needs big personalities,  and right now,  we have lots of beautifully trained technicians,  but no stars like that.

Thank you very much for your extremely interesting post. Have you ever thought of writing a book about meeting those famous dancers? It would be great to read it!