Willful and manipulative?

[Leigh Witchel]

This topic is spun off from a discussion about Tanaquil Leclercq. As you'll see from the earlier posts, Thalictum described her (among other things) as willful and manipulative, while tempusfugit doubted whether those words could be used to describe a ballerina.

Could they? There's definitely a sense that it takes ambition to rise to the top, but as tempusfugit said, there is much more to a ballerina than ambition.

What do you think?

[Mel Johnson]

I've known some willful and manipulative ballerinas, and I've met some get-along, go-along sorts, too. And everything inbetween. Of course, personality, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

[atm711]

Willful and manipulative?---I would like to hear from the ballerinas who had to share the stage with Fonteyn during her reign at the Royal Ballet.....

[canbelto]

I think they could be used to describe the grand dame of the Kirov, Natalia Dudlinskaya. She had *exclusive rights* to Giselle. Not that she wasnt a great dancer, but she must have wielded incredible power.

[sandik]

This is a subset of the "do you have to be a good person to be a good artist" question. I think the answer to that is no, and I do think that you could be a great ballerina and still be "willful and manipulative." Unfortunate but true.

[Alexandra]

In the goodolddays principals often had exclusive rights to roles. Margrethe Schanne owned "La Sylphide" for 20 years (in Copenhagen), for example. It made a bit more sense during a time when dancers were cast in roles that they were suited to, instead of dancing every single principal role. If Schanne owned "La Sylphide," then somebody else owned "Napoli," someone else "Romeo and Julielt," etc. (Not saying I'd like to go back to this custom, but just that it wasn't unusual.) Often, too, the first cast in a ballet stays in the ballet as long as it continues to be a hit, and people go to the ballet expecting to see that cast. 20 years from now, someone might write a book about how that mean, pushy Baryshnikov owned "Push Comes to Shove" and no one else was allowed to dance it, but it wasn't exactly like that.

[canbelto]

This might be violating the "no gossip" rule so y'all can PM me with private answers but ...

I idolize Altynai Asylmuratova's dancing so much that I almost want to know what she was "like" in real life. Anyone know if she was considered "wllful and manipulative" offstage? I'd love to think that the sweetness and warmth she exuded onstage was her offstage too.

ETA: I think it's one thing for an artist to have exclusive rights to roles that are a real specialty trademark, or specifically fashioned for said artist. For example, Fonteyn and Nureyev in Marguerite and Armand, or Farrell in Tzigane. But Giselle? That's a prima ballerina role that many ballerinas dream of dancing, and it wasnt tailored for Dudlinskaya, and I have doubts as to whether Dudlinskaya was the ONLY ballerina at the Kirov who could have handled Giselle. Somehow, i think the fact that she was married to Sergeyev and also her patriotism had more to do with it

[Thalictum]

Dudinskaya wasn't suited to Giselle, so much that Boris Fenster, who directed the Kirov 1958-1960, pleaded with her to dance Myrtha instead, but to no avail. Of course by this time she was in her mid/late forties so she was less suited than ever. However, Dudinskaya in addition to her enormous power at the Kirov did have a big following and her public loved her in every role.

But at this point, in the late '50s, Fenster cast Kolpakova and Makarova in their debuts as Giselle.

But for years, after Ulanova left and Dudinskaya took over, there was only the very occasional performance by Vecheslova, Petrova or Shelest as an alternative to Dudinskaya in the role. Ex-Kirov dancers say they really didn't know what Giselle was supposed to be apart from Dudinskaya's portrayal.

There are people who say that Dudinskaya's attempt to turn herself into Giselle, ultimately unconvincing as it may have been, was nevertheless a fascinating failure in its own right.

[canbelto]

That's what I was thinking Thalictum ... from the videos I've seen of Dudlinskaya she does not seem like a natural Giselle at all. She's a muscular, bravura dancer, and very "down to earth" in her stage persona. Good forRaymonda, Kitri ...

Did Irina Kolpokova ever get a chance to dance Giselle under the reign of Dudlinskaya? And Alla Sizova? Now those are Kirov dancers I can see as Giselle.

[Thalictum]

Kolpakova made her debut as Giselle in 1959, while Dudinskaya was still dancing; I don't know when Sizova first danced Giselle, but I would say not until much later. She danced it in London with the Kirov in 1970. Dudinskaya continued her solo evenings at the Philharmonic through the mid-1960s I believe, but stopped dancing at the Kirov in 1962-63, I would say.

[zerbinetta]

Willful (bent on having one's way) & manipulative (bending events to one's favor)? Seems to me these are generally considered admirable qualities in a male.

Isn't this the old woman: aggressive; man: assertive hang-up? That's old.

Any person who spends approximately 10 years of early life intensively studying for a career that lasts perhaps 20 years would need to learn how to get her/his way if they wish to be successful.

[tempusfugit]

Alexandra's point is excellent, and it was often the choreographer's decision not to have alternate casts (case in point: Balanchine rarely having understudies for Farrell, especially in the Sixties, and never having other ballerinas dance either Meditation or Tzigane during his lifetime, to my knowledge; the roles have of course since been performed by a few others)... Also, when other dancers are cast in virtuoso and/or idiosyncratic roles, the reviews/audience responses are frequently less than positive (Baryshnikov's alternates in Push Comes to Shove, most women who followed Farrell in Diamonds, Scherzo of Western Symphony-- out of the ballet much of the time since 1960--)

It's clear that some ballerinas are much "nicer" than others, and obviously that artistic product is not inseparable from certain personality traits. (if you had to be a "good person" to be a "good artist", we could immediately dispense with Gesualdo, Liszt, Wagner, Stravinsky, Picasso, ad infinitum). IMO, zerbinetta said it; to paraphrase, anyone who succeeds in a notoriously dangerous, chancy profession WILL have a strong personality. lol. who wants to see Casperina Milquetoast on stage?

Oh, and canbelto, re Asylmuratova: many ballerinas who exuded sweetness and warmth in their performances have been, shall we say, tough cookies offstage..... Fonteyn, Kirkland, etc. In another field, Rudolf Bing said that one of his star singers had "dimples of iron"!

[canbelto]

Oh, and canbelto, re Asylmuratova: many ballerinas who exuded sweetness and warmth in their performances have been, shall we say, tough cookies offstage..... Fonteyn, Kirkland, etc.  In another field, Rudolf Bing said that one of his star singers had "dimples of iron"!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah that was Renata Tebaldi. I've never heard horror stories about Asylmuratova the way i have heard about, uh, Fonteyn, or Guillem, or Yulia Makhalina, but I guess you never know

My point though is, I think any ballerina (in this case, Dudlinskaya) who demands exclusive rights to not a novelty or virtuoso role but GISELLE has got to have a very strong, even unyielding personality.

Also, I dont think "willful" and "manipulative" go hand in hand. Willful implies to me someone who's stubborn, strong, perhaps brusque. But manipulative implies a whole different kind of personality. Someone can be both wishy-washy and manipulative at the same time (think of, say, Polonius in Hamlet). I think many ballerinas might fall in the "willful" category but it takes a "special" ballerina to also be "manipulative." For instance I watched the Alicia Alonso documentary. For a woman who was nearly blind to still dance one of THE most impressive Black Swan pdd I have EVER seen must have taken a will of iron. But I'm not sure that necessarily means she's manipulative.