papeetepatrick

Except now that I put the Unblock on, it says 'User is blocked and cannot participate'. When 'Block' is on, it says 'Last read. Not yet read'. But since I'd never sent this user a pm, there would be no reason not to read it, although there's no demand for a response. I don't know for sure what this is. So I don't know if it worked this time either. Not that serious. Maybe 'user' will see this and try to send me a pm.

Thanks so much, Alexandra.

Helene (or others)--I sent a pm to someone and I can look at my 'conversation' (the correspondences I sent out), the recipient has a little icon with the name on it, but underneath it, it says 'Block'. It also says 'not yet read'. As this is a relatively new member, it could be that you have to activate the pm function, or it may mean that the person blocks all pm's. I'd like to know how this works, because I took a look at my conversations with other members, and this 'block' doesn't show. If you click on the 'block', it then says 'unblock', so I just clicked it back. Just for the record, there would be no reason to have blocked me personally, since I'm on friendly terms with this member. I had forgotten all about the 'block' feature since the new system was put in place. I think you used to see it beside all users' names, but this is the first time I've seen it in the new system. Thanks for your help. (the person has definitely made enough posts to be able to use pm is (s)he wants to, I recall you had to do about 8 posts before your 'pm rights' were instated, at least in the old days). I'd like to know if, in general, some people put total blocks on their Messenger. That's cool if they do, I'd just like to know. I've never blocked anyone myself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayor_%28musical%29 Remember this? I didn't discover it until much later, as 1985 was a rough year, Charles Strouse no less. Never heard of anybody seeing it. Of course, he went on to TV glory in the 90s with that judge show, that was boring. This even had Helmsley and Bellamy and Bess Myerson and Sue Simmons characters in it...although Sue's natural hilarity outdid itself with her on-air f-bomb a few years ago. I encourage interested parties to google this, as it is one of the funniest things I have ever heard, as is her (totally bored) apology in which she said 'I used a word'. But now I think Ed Koch has enough things named after him, thank you.

Jane--yes. Indeed I noticed this immediately, but didn't mention it because of our rather keen focus on weight this past week. Everybody looked squashed and 'wide' in La Sylphide and Napoli, but the Romeo in R & J didn't--unless I was just used to it by then. {Edited to add: I see you said that already, but I'm glad I wasn't 'just used to it' by the time of R & J. If you have a chance, tell me if the curtain always goes up immediately with the beginning of the music in R & J. Maybe it does, and I just usually don't pay too much attention.)

Treasure trove is right. I just looked at pieces of all five of these, and they're all exquisite. That is the DVD of 'Napoli', isn't it? I've only seen it once, but remembered it vividly, the girl in pink in the variation toward the end, and Villumsen is always superb, always one of my favourite male dancers. I even liked some of the two pieces based on Ionesco as far as I've watched them thus far, but mainly was struck by that opening of the Neumeier Romeo and Juliet--so sensual and elegant somehow at the same time with the opening music which is so distinctive in that it 'has no intro', it just delivers the whole package without making you wait through any polite little business (music anywhere, whether or not for ballet, usually builds up to the ravishing, instead of starting with it; I've always been struck by Prokofiev's genius in opening with such a kind of surrender to a total tenderness in its full opening, so that you cannot mistake what the story is all about). Perfect for sleeping Romeo and Brother Laurence in that sharp elegant set that seems Italian and Danish at the same time (I suppose it would, but it's truly beautiful, I haven't seen that many Romeo and Juliets, but I've never paid that much attention to the very opening. I then googled to see if I could compare with others right now, but none of them contained the very opening scene. I admit I had remembered the beginning music as being played, at least some of the first phrases, almost as an Overture, instead of the curtain coming up at the very beginning, I must be wrong on that.) I hope to have a chance to watch all of these all the way through, but I'll definitely watch all of this R & J. That 'Napoli' is marvelous, though, and I'm going to want to watch that some more too, because I don't own the DVD. Will they leave these up? I hope others at BT have been watching these. I like the score for 'The Lesson' too, by Georges Delarue.

That's fascinating, as are all these informative posts you're doing. It also makes me realize that all those events and performance art pieces of the 60s and 70s and beyond, come from Cunningham. I think I used to hear about Cage and Cunningham when I'd read about Laurie Anderson, although she's not one of the ones I've ever been a big fan of (I'm more the Karen Finley/Tim Miller/Monik Toebosch type in terms of taste in these areas). Some of those things in which the audience follows the artists around and 'into new worlds' comes to mind (there were some in Brooklyn in the 90s, even walking through muddy creeks and suchlike), and there's a memory of a London performance piece in a biggish house, where the viewer would sit in the room, and long periods would go by until all of a sudden some dancer would descend a staircase, dance startlingly, and then just disappear--very convincing embodiment of the ghost, I've often wished I had seen that. I don't know how to google it, though, as I can't remember the names, and never heard of anyone seeing it. Think i read about it in the Voice. I've been to a fair amount of performance art, but most of it doesn't attract me, and the interactivity between audience and artists is not for me, usually. I tend to want performance art to be somewhere between that sort and traditional theater, so that it's a little more firmly scripted. I've never found any of the 'chance music' of Cage or Stockhausen esp. interesting beyond the immediate moment; I don't find myself continuing to probe it. The high modernists used little of it, and I am more at home in that kind of difficult music: Boulez's Repons, with the computers responding to the orchestral playing, is much more my type of thing (this is superb if you ever get to hear a major perf., as I did at Columbia in 1986, and in 2003 at Carnegie Hall, which was all re-arranged (seats temporarily removed, etc. so the orchestra could be right in the middle), it is beautiful. Oh, Mistah Simon, you're just soooo Prince of Wales, but California is about the same distance from Florida as London is. I'll go there and hate it for you if Cristian isn't into it...

I think I know why Dietrich really was Garbo's only 'rival', as you point to it here: It's because, at least for me, Marlene never goes into that stratosphere of magic except when she sings--and then she does. Garbo doesn't inhabit the realm of singer at all, and never intended to, but that's why Dietrich can 'stand up to her' as a persona (though not really as an actress ever IMO). My Garbo-fan friend mentioned her singing in something, but I don't know what that was, nd he can't seem to remember, in any case she wasn't a singer. You're absolutely right that Dietrich is made for cabaret, and she was the master of it. And that is the one time where she is totally unlike anyone else, even with the well-known limited vocal range that you mention. It is marvelous the way she can make you forget everything else going on in a film like 'Foreign Affair' when she sings 'Black Market'. Her praise of the years of working with Burt Bacharach in the 50s are truly moving. I happen to adore 'Blue Angel, I think it's her best film, actually. She is good as an actress in 'Witness for the Prosecution' and also very fine in that exotic role in Welles's 'Touch of Evil', a masterpiece of a film. I also love 'Blonde Venus', no matter how silly some of the plot line, because her numbers are so full of life and humour, she's just one of those naturally funny people (which might be a liability as an actress, because she often comes across as camp.) I don't like, however, 'The Devil is a Woman' and 'The Scarlet Empress' is just ridiculous. Also like the two Cooper/Dietrich films you mentioned, as well as 'Shanghai Express' and when she sings in 'Destry Rides Again'. Mae West had another version of this, although hers was the surprise (as in 'Belle of New Orleans') when she starts singing, and it's so effortless, and you just weren't expecting it to be so good. You probably know the hilarious stories of Dietrich and Mae, as well as the one of Mae and Garbo, in which I believe Garbo stood silent almost the whole time while Mae talked about her career non-stop.This is marvelous: 'what memories used to be about...' ah yes, that is quite perfect, I'd like to have written that myself, do you mind if I plagiarize? I like this also very much: That explains it just a wee bit more vis-a-vis the necessity of film for her gifts than I've heard it said before, makes it truly singular. Deneuve has only made films (I was surprised when I read this) and her favourite actress is Marilyn Monroe, and it is interesting to think of how some actors and actresses are made purely for film. And in recent years, I've noticed that the bigger film stars of today don't usually succeed so well onstage--Julia Roberts, Julianne Moore, there are others I can't think of right now; Keith Carradine was marvelous in 'Will Rogers Follies' on B'way, but never quite made it to 'Major Star', part of which can be explained by his poorly executed British accent in 'The Bachelor' with Miranda Richardson; otherwise, I never could figure out why the momentum didn't keep going, because that's a real talent (he's even good in that Madonna 'Material Girl' music video--and one of his very best roles is relatively late: His big fist fight with Vanessa in 'Ballad of the Sad Cafe', a film usually disliked, but which I found very impressive, and Carradine is sensational in it.) Only Vanessa, who is primarily known as a film actress, is actually even greater when you finally do see her onstage--if I had to choose between Deneuve's film work and Vanessa's (as whole bodies of work, esp. including recent years), I'd definitely take Deneuve's, who has gotten better as she's aged. After what you said about Seyrig (and that I should have known), I wonder if her stage appearances were as great as her film work. But the perfect 'diagram' of her film luminosity is in 'La Peau d'Ane', in her scenes with Deneuve: In no catty way, she totally dominates the scenes as the Lilac Fairy; and it comes as little surprise that Deneuve, as charming as she is, doesn't resent this at all--it's clear she understands that Delphine was capable of a luminosity that she didn't even have to work for, and she's just dazzling as the Lilac Fairy in that charming film.Barrault also had that luminosity, even if we know him only from 'Les Enfants du Paradis', even though he was primarily great for his stage acting. But Marie Casares, from the same film, we'd hardly know at all from it, and then we hear of her illustrious career at the Comedie Francaise (I believe it was that.)

It's not really important, though, whether dancers or other artists you admire do themselves admire other artists that one doesn't admire. Not that you meant that, but I think it's an important point. I don't like everything Balanchine likes, and don't care what he would think of that. Same with writers like Mailer, Didion, DeLillo, dancers like Suzanne Farrell, Nureyev, McBride, Hubbe, musicians like Boulez, Britten, etc. I do think it's also important to realize that most of those people who have a name in a given profession usually don't speak against others who have one (as it would seem natural to me for Stephen Sondheim to say something about Andrew Lloyd Webber, but he shies away from that, I don't know if he's said anything about Alan Mencken.) Film stars usually don't mention rivals in their fields, unless they're 'in a number' like Shirley MacLaine was with her decade + of Reincarnation Talk, and she'd say things in Vanity Fair like 'I talked to Goldie about it [Meryl Streep's acting] and she thinks it's channelling', which is one of the most hilarious things I ever read. Two Malibu gals sittin' around evaluating the competitiion. That's a Zizekian technique, I have nothing against it, but one is quite explicit about how one does NOT see something (so that one is stuck pondering it, as when Zizek claims he sides with Chavez, and then says 'well, you know, he is considered a clown'.) That's cool, though. Well, this does make you more knowledgeable, maybe even professional (or professional-level), although I'm not going to do it for someone's work I know I dislike. I haven't ever seen Cunningham's work, although I'm not sure why, didn't know enough about it, other things got in the way, I might see it at aome point, but not at BAM this year. I've seen Alvin Ailey's company only once, and I wouldn't pay for it again, because I thought the program was awful, even though I doubt that other programs would be. Still, I got a taste of what the company was, and I don't have any practical reason to inform myself perfectly on the Ailey company. Although I would say your ability to be so exhaustive about dance you dislike to the point of even 'hating' is admirable. Most, like me, aren't going to do it. Well, I'm going to see Osipova's virtuosity because I just want to, but not in 'Don Q', which bores me no matter how good the dancers. 'Coppellia' and SB will be just fine. I can't really argue with this, as it's probably true, just that it may be exaggerated. Cage is important, but musically he is not so important IMO as Boulez, Stockhausen, or even Britten, but he was something of a real pioneer. As far as wanting to take most of his pieces individually, I don't care to listen to them. Give me 'Le Marteau sans Maitre' over anything of Cage any day. But you may be speaking of influences in 'art' and 'theater' in the sense of Brecht, but in a particular school and style and also the use of 'theory' of this 'triumvirate' may mean a particular branch of theater more than a universal influence on all theater (which it may have done, but not only they.) Would be interested in hearing about this. Edited to add: I will watch 'The Coast' later. That I definitely can do, and am jus pressed for time, but can probably do it later today.

'Liliom' is a beautiful movie, and Boyer really looks young and virile in it. Madeleine Ozeray is fragile, birdlike and exquisite, and there's a lovely small appearance by Antonin Artaud as 'le remouler' (the 'grinder'). I hadn't thought of 'Gaslight' the other day, but yes, he is excellent in that, and so is Miss Bergman (her other Oscar-winner, 'Anastasia', is boring to me). I think 'Liliom' is much better than 'Carousel', the musical version, although I've heard Molnar said he liked it. I think people aren't so fond of 'Susan Lennox' because it is so unusual and exotic--that doesn't always mean popular. You're right about 'The Garden of Allah', which is hideous, as is another Dietrich film 'Kismet', which left me in disbelief. I believe Dietrich said at one time when the film was featured on TV in the late 70s or early 80s that Garden of Allah was the favourite of her pictures 'because I was never more beautiful', which makes it totally worthwhile to me, as I think Marlene has the best sense of humour of all the stars (except maybe Ava Gardner.) The things she said about Loretta Young and Joan Crawford are just outrageous, but they crack me up, and I like many of her films a great deal. She's admired Garbo and K. Hepburn hugely, but that was about it of female stars she had a good word for.

Ah, that's nice, kfw, and I hadn't known anything about this. But it reminded me of the show I used to see on Channel 31 (?) here, one of the PBS channels I believe, but not 13, that Jaffe hosted. It was always a wonderful show, and Jaffe was a warm and gracious host. There was one show in which Farrell was especially discussed, and Jaffe's admiration knew no bounds, she went on and on about her influence. But this makes it clearer why (I hadn't originally quite understood why Jaffe was talking about her so much, since she'd been with ABT), since they had a truly intimate professional collaboration in 'Mozartiana'. I've forgotten who she was discussing Farrell with, but all the shows were good, and not always about ballet either. She'd always conclude it with 'This week, go out and see some DANCE!' Just an adorable creature. But was 'Mozartiana' Balanchine's 'last masterpiece'. A lot of us think Robert Schumann's Davidsbundlertanze was a masterpiece, too, and that's a few years later, isn't it?

The best written development of that change I know of is in Thorstein Veblen's 'Theory of the Leisure Class', where it's one of many things having to do with fashion and given value as such. So that obviously, even the idea of thinness is not always considered to have the highest status. In ballet, though there has always obviously had to be some reasonable extreme muscularity, so that even if there was some plumpness and fleshiness in the 19th century, no ballerinas could really be fat and do the fouettes, or really any of the steps effectively.

Just found these by accident, must have been busy during most of the viewing. They're still here, though. Sublime, thanks.

And I saw Jaffe many times, and her dancing did nothing for me. Croce summed it up when she wrote that if Giselle herself called Jaffe, she'd get a busy signal. Now that is snark. I generally look for movement quality and like plush. I don't usually care about the body if the way the dancer moves captures me, a la Mark Morris at any weight. No, I don't care either, but I did just want to add that, since you saw Jaffe many times, and I saw her only once live, that hers was easily the most thrilling Juliet I ever saw. That would have been 1996. She literally flew. I did see Farrell many times, though, and so I have more to judge by: Most of it was quite otherworldly and charismatic, and I'd say again that her 'big American look' in 'Mozartiana' was quite the sleight-of-hand, because it was very womanly while perfectly elegant. I think it was three years later I saw her do 'La Valse', and she seemed tall rather than quite so voluptuous. And as the Striptease Girl right at that same time (1986, I believe), she had 'taken off weight' if she'd had any just prior to that (I think about a year before that I saw her in 'Liebeslieder', but she seemed slim from what I could tell from those costumes. kfw's point about the 'Mozartiana' dress is good, and probably does have something to do with the rather large-seeming body that she carried so commandingly in that.) I didn't see Jaffe in her earliest years of celebrity, but I do remember a good deal of criticism of her 'mechanicalness', I believe. Someone here who hasn't written for some time was discussing this once, how Jaffe made a conscious effort to 'mature', for lack of a better word, and that it had worked (I can't remember that BT member at the moment, I don't think she's written for a year or more). Oh yes, remembered, it was Phaedra392, knew it was sort of goddessy, although Phedre of Greek lore wasn't exactly that.

That's not what it means, but it sometimes does translate that way with ballet dancers, some of whom indeed can look emaciated, although the norm seems to be a little fuller than Alessandra Ferri and a little less full than Ruth St. Denis It's usually noted, even if not extremely critically. I knew someone who worked with NYCB in the 70s and 80s who said that Suzanne Farrell 'tends to put on weight'. I myself worked with a ballet mistress who watched the old PBS broadcast of 'Mozartiana' with Farrell in about 1982. She wasn't a fan of Farrell and claimed that she looked like a 'Long Island Matron', which I thought was inaccurate to say the least (as well as being more of what bart called 'lobby talk'), but then her ideal at the time was Susan Jaffe, whose perfect body also became a great dancer. But Farrell was always an exception, and even though she had a 'big look' in 'Mozartiana', that seemed appropriate to me. But I'd say Jaffe was a pretty good example, or maybe Patty McBride, of the kind of body that is never criticized. Then there are some who've really put on weight after retirement, but I won't mention these, because I didn't see any signs of it when they were dancing.

I don't agree with this at all. He certainly could have rephrased them, and just been simple about it. His 'original comments' may not have been exactly 'cruel', but they were gratuitous; and I do agree with miliosr that there really is a whiff of John Simon here, if not quite what he'd say about Judy Garland's looks, etc. He could simply have said both 'appeared to have gained weight', and even that this was visually 'somewhat distracting', or suchlike. I don't think he even needs to relate it to 'how they danced' the way others do, and it's all right if he wants to write about how he found their weight gains 'unfortunate' or 'not looking good in the piece' or even just 'not to his taste'. But this stupid cuteness: "looked as if she had eaten one sugarplum too many" and "seems to have been sampling half the Sweet realm" is not necessary. Relating their weight gain to the ballet material and eating sweets is tacky in a twee and obnoxious way, not original IMO. Macaulay aside, I haven't seen Ringer for about 4 years, so I wouldn't be able to say anything, but if Jared Angle really has noticeably gained weight, that does surprise me, and he had to do it really fast: I saw him in 'Swan Lake' in February, and he was so slim and svelte you were even quite conscious of it. I didn't find him a charismatic dancer in any sense of a strong princely presence, but his grande pirouettes were certainly something one couldn't argue too much with--they were there. I think, however clumsily, it was 'in the context of the performance', even if not made as specific as with Seymour and Morris. I guess I just find his remarks on the sweet-eating silly. I don't like his writing that much, and this is aside from what his expertise in ballet may or may not be (meaning others will know better than I, although it would seem he obviously knows a great deal.)

I liked 'Conquest', but don't have time to write about it at the moment. But was struck by your 'Boyer record'. I had figured this out on my own as well. You've added some I hadn't known and left out a few that I'll now add, from having started watching the 1962 'Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse' last night. So we'd include the stunning Ingrid Thulin and also Yvette Mimieux as well. This had originally been a flop, and I never wanted to see it until we were talking about 'Gilda' and Glenn Ford recently. Ford I now appreciate much more than I used to, primarily because of 'Gilda', but also because of Lang's 'The Big Heat'. I'd thought of him as bland before. And a Wiki piece I just read described all the perceived problems of this, but what startled me was the chemistry between Ford and Thulin is very strong and convincing, and while Thulin is a vision (I always thought she was the most beautiful of the Bergman actresses, but never thought I'd watch this, it sounded like an anomaly), Ford is fit and sexy, and looks marvelous in suits. In fact, that he's playing Charles Boyer's SON is much less credible than his affair with Thulin, as is his having Nazi cousins with names like Heinrich. So will just quickly say that I thought Boyer was marvelous in 'Conquest', but I usually like him. I had liked Garbo too, and she looks spectacular in it. This was one of her best matches of leading men, and Boyer was indeed a consummate actor; I'm surprised to hear he's not remembered much there. Someone told me that since Gilbert Becaud died in 2001, there's been mo mention of him to speak of (although this friend goes to Paris a lot he lives in Lausanne, but I think he'd know.) Of course, that's more recent, but there's been a lot of discussion I've heard over decades about the different ways of valuing performing artists, particularly contrasting the U.S. and France: In the former, it's pretty much understood that you have to keep producing and getting out work, and the latter, one can coast on one's past laurels and be celebrated for years. Or that's the stereotype, and those are, of course, often applicable. Sorry to veer off the the film for the moment, but I did remember when I, too, counted up as many of the ladies Boyer had appeared with, and I had started with 'who had worked with Garbo, Dietrich, and K. Hepburn?' He was the only one.

So do I, easily. Coincidentally, my Garbo-fan friend was here today, and I was talking with him about our thread here, and I said the same thing, but with big emphasis on Janis Paige, who was so delicious with that song 'Glorious Technicolor, Breathtaking Cinemascope and Stereophonic Sound'. Totally love her, and think she should have re-created her B'way 'Pajama Game' role, because Doris Day was not good in it IMO. But mainly, the idea was that a totally silly and inane concept is okay for a musical comedy sometimes, and doesn't work elsewhere. A musical in those days mainly needed good numbers, and you couldn't miss with that cast. Thanks for the photo and material on Delphine. I did see 'Pull My Daisy', which I think would have been just the time, with Allen Ginsberg, and didn't Burroughs even make a cameo appearance in that? Amazing she was with those people, then the next thing she does is 3 episodes of 'Pete and Gladys' sitcom, and suddenly is 'a' in 'Marienbad'. But even if you think Crawford and Davis 'reduced' themselves in this way (so did Olivia de Havilland, with 'Hush Hush..' and 'Lady in a Cage'), Dietrich and Katharine Hepburn didn't suffer this fate at all as they aged, so Garbo certainly wouldn't have gone that route either. I actually have nothing against 'Hush Hush Sweet Charlotte', although I am not mad for 'Straitjacket' (despite Diane Baker's usual charisma) and 'I Saw What You Did', but even that pales beside a week of 'Secret Storm' in 1968. Ms. Crawford definitely had a screw loose. So I happen to like Bette Davis's 'horror hag' work (and fabulous in 'Where Love Has Gone' too, as well as 'Widow Fortune' in the TV movie of Tom Tryon's 'Dark Secret of Harvest Home'), but Miss Crawford's considerably less. 'Die! Die! My Darling!' is one of the best titles I ever heard, though, esp. since the movie is sort of an extension of 'A day without Tallulah is like a month in the country'.

I admit that I like Garbo quite well in 'Two-Faced Woman' too, yiannis. After years of hearing about this 'disaster', I found her perfectly wonderful in it (although strangely Americanized; I thought she seemed to be 'morphing' into Kate Hepburn, and that that was the one film Hepburn could have done of Garbo's). I'll try 'Imitation' again at some point; I really enjoy all the Garbo films except 'Ninotchka', even though it's very well-made, but you just have to forgive me for that, since it was recently that I watched about 3 times, and that's going to have to be enough! The most strange sensation is the way when she's finally come to meet Douglas at the party--she comes across as a 'surprise senior-prom beauty from one of the lesser families' rather than the imperious goddess she usually inhabits so easily. It has to do with the film's structure that I actually find her more beautiful in the Soviet attire. 'Golden' is a good word for Delphine's voice, another friend called it sombre, listening to her beautiful spoken recording of Debussy's 'Chansons de Bilitis'. I know so little about her actually. This is touch off-topic, but I'm intrigued by her stage career, of which I know nothing; maybe you know some of what she was known for. Yes, the other friend, who is my best friend here in New York, did follow Garbo around till she finally looked back at him and looked scared. So he stopped right then and there. There's nothing crazy about him. Then there's another friend who claimed she chased HIM around, that she was sexually attracted to him, this was such a crock, and just the kind of thing he would make up. And he was NOT nice, I just put up with him because he was funny (that's my Achilles heel, I've been told.)

Yes, I think she had a wonderful career too, but I do think it's also important to be objective when one can even with one's favourites (or it is to me, at least.) The only one of my favourite film stars for which I can't think of ever being in a second- or third-rate film is Delphine Seyrig, and I never thought she gave a bad performance, but that could be argued, or there may even be a bad film of which I'm not aware, but she made few as well (I should add that I wouldn't 'hold it against her' if she did, I'd consider it normal). Gary Cooper, Robert Mitchum, Audrey Hepburn, Marilyn Monroe, Catherine DeNeuve, just to name a few, all were in some dreadful pictures, and there are a few dreadful performances they gave as well. But I am equally attracted to see all of their roles (even the awful last things that Mitchum did like 'Midnight Ride' and Audrey did, like 'They All Laughed': Both of these films are unspeakably bad, as was Audrey's TV movie 'Love Among Thieves' that she did with Robert Wagner) at least once. Deneuve even made that awful 'Hustle' with Burt Reynolds, and I thought 'The April Fools' was pretty bad early on. It IS true I never saw Edith Evans in anything I thought she was bad in either, although by far the great bulk of her important work was onstage, except for her Mother Superior turn in 'The Nun's Story'. That's the most preposterous use of Edith Evans, who's always playing 'ladies of quality' I ever saw, and it tickles me just to think how ridiculous. Well, I guess I can think of one of my favourites who has a huge range and who was rarely in pulp: Deborah Kerr, who is definitely on a par with Garbo in my estimation. But we're talking about two different things. I do appreciate the mediocre vehicles of Garbo just for her presence, but I don't keep watching most of them, 'Romance' is an exception; I know it's schlock, but I like it. And yes, there is a special aura about her, but then there is for many great artists, whether or not performing artists. It's according to how far one is capable or desiring to go into this near-religion with any of them. There are many, for example, who feel that way about Balanchine--on this board and certainly those who worked with him and who are still running ballet companies of their own. You get something either way: In other words, I can't say I have quite this much ardour for any artist, although Martha Graham probably comes closest for me, because of the worlds she was able to create--but I've got way too much ego to have ever allowed myself to submit to her the way some did, even if I had been a modern dancer. And then there are a few writers, or just a few beauties with no discernible other major talent whom I cherish but don't talk about. But most of your thoughts on Garbo have been very inspiring, even though I'd even forgotten 'Inspiration', and that I don't find inspiring, although, as I've explained with the others I'm not crazy about, I am glad to have seen them at least once: There are a few exceptions. I really actively dislike 'Ninotchka' for the most part, and don't even care for her in it. But your is very good and offers a new way of looking at the pre-Ninotchka films I'm less fond of, but...now that you do, I feel that that 'lovingly and careful surrounding of Garbo by other gifted artists' does begin to look threadbare by the time one arrives at 'Ninotchka', even if they're all trying. She kept the aura going by stopping films, and it worked, even if some people resented it. As for male roles played by females, it's got an illustrious history, but I wasn't born in those old periods, and I don't like them, period. Also, any non-comic female roles played by men, just not into it. So that one of the things you make stand out in sharp relief, yiannis, is the different kinds of fans, and that's interesting. We've already discussed your religious or near-religious worship of Garbo, and I've described my own way of appreciating her work and that of others. The friend of mine I mentioned who used to follow her around and was obsessed with her, still calls her his 'favourite star', doesn't however like a number of her performances, so that's another twist. He thinks she's 'over-the-top' in 'Grand Hotel', where I find her extraordinarily exotic; and he also isn't that impressed with 'Anna Karenina', which I am. Otoh, he loves her in 'Ninotchka', but I've said enough about that. For me, she's good in it, but it's the first case of the 'Garbo aura' being stripped off a film: It's much more ensemble, and both Douglas and Claire are also very impressive in it (as performers, that is, but I don't intend to watch this film again, I think it's hopeless-whereas i probably will at some point watch 'The Painted Veil' again, I like it well enough.)

You're right that she could have continued in some form or other, with some kinds of movies or other, but I've always heard that she'd been called 'box office poison', along with Dietrich, Katharine Hepburn and Joan Crawford. Here's something from this past July in the Daily News: http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/movies/dvd_extra_brown_directs_garbo_crawford_eDADJUGSer7ZJg50zrjfNK and from this site: http://hiwaay.net/~oliver/timeline4.htm I've also read it in a Dietrich bio by that guy who had a telephone relationship with her, that those 4 had been labelled box office poison, I don't know if all at the same time (I think K. Hepburn earlier, not sure). Ho ho ho,I found that you are about 7th in my googling, from this very thread: Maybe so, but the Daily News article makes it sound like she was still a kind of 'box office poison', because there is a real shifting of gears with 'Ninotchka' and 'Two-Faced Woman'. She could have always kept herself occupied in the movies, although I don't care to speculate about that. She obviously didn't want to, because she could have revived it, and with something good, at almost any minute. And I don't agree with you, yiannis, that she was an 'uncompromising artist' in terms of 'all or nothing', since she'd been doing a great deal of that throughout her career, not in terms of her acting (which I tend to think is always good, even in junk like 'Two-Faced Woman'), but in terms of several mediocre vehicles she was in, like 'As You Desire Me', 'The Painted Veil', etc., which interest only as 'Garbo films'. No actor is ever uncompromising beyond a certain point, and literally all do trash for the money, including Olivier and Vanessa, from time to time. C'est normale. I hadn't know she might have done a 'Dorian Gray'. That sounds like a dreadful idea, as does Hamlet IMO. However, she might have been able to do something with 'Pandora', although I doubt anyone could have pleased me, it comes across heavy as lead to me. I know the film has its fans, though (and I'm certainly a big Ava Gardner fan in many other things.) Anyway, Dietrich, however more campy and not usually as great a pure Thespian as Garbo, was extremely intelligent and sometimes very subtle, and kept going (with sometimes quite good results) for most of the rest of her life. Garbo liked her life the way it was, but Yiannis, don't forget that Dietrich and K. Hepburn continued well into the 40s and 50s and beyond, so Garbo could easily have as well--and none of these ladies were any picnic to work with; they were all demanding and difficult. The 40s weren't just new types of movie glamour types, Dietrich was still very much in evidence and so, god knows, was Joan Crawford, whose persona is much more formed by her 40s pictures than her 30s, although I only like the early light 30s things, with a couple of exceptions.

That makes little or no sense to me, if they're 'inextricably linked', then they're not 'complete without it' (unless they don't have one or don't need one, or another one 'will do' or 'we heard it with the score and now we can just see it by itself'). Of course they're not.

Yes, I don't care much either. Has Tina started yet? That was the hoot about Newsweek for me. When I was in Switzerland in 1997, I noticed a copy of Newsweek with the cover 'The Death of Privacy'. Despite much surveilliance of all kinds even with terrorist attacks and the rest, I haven't seen the death of privacy, these magazines are forms of tabloids. I guess Tina will try to 'sex it up' the way she did the New Yorker (with some surprisingly good fiction pieces that probably never would have appeared otherwise.) Although her 'Talk' didn't amount to much. These issues are always loaded and have to do with people's reactions to terms. I personally don't like the term 'gay' or 'straight' although I like 'heterosexual' and 'homosexual' fine. But so what. People are going to use them. Interesting to muse on Mel's mention of Balanchine's well-known 'Ballet is Woman' remark. Well, that's definitely never been proven, and probably referred mostly to the way he saw ballet and how to do it. But not all great choreographers saw the male as subordinate in ballet, of course, that was part of what Balanchine was. But from Balanchine, heterosexual himself, saying 'ballet is woman' doesn't necessarily follow either that ballet was ever 'homosexual' (there are surely at least as many 'opera queens', although the following of all the 'lively arts' has always had a big homosexual following). I see Mel's point, but don't care what they write in these rags. I'm much more upset when things happen like when Judith Miller and the Times did numbers back at the beginning of the Iraq War. Mainly, it's because the Times still really does exist, among a few important print publications (even if a lot of us read it online). Newsweek and Time used to be so important, and they don't seem to be anymore. I don't even think the New Yorker is all that important anymore, although I do think New York Review of Books is, even though they publish the occasional trash piece. But this is some of it just opinion (mine, I mean). I was more repelled by her using the term 'goody-goody White Swan'. Just plain cruddy writing. Nor is this sort of fatuous thing "channel her sensuous, sinister inner Black Swan" impressive. 'Inner black swan', how revolting. But the print people seem to be studying with the hipster bloggers at this point--be sure to be trendy, no matter how silly.

I enjoyed this music. My well-mannered wife, sitting on the aisle with me, said she seriously considered slipping out of the theater! All reactions to music or dance or really any of the arts are to some degree legitimate even if some of them (or none of them) are exactly objective, but 'something giving way under tortuous strain' would be something music (or dance too, for that matter) could legitimately be doing. A lot of artistic expression is about collapse, breakdown and failure, of course. Those are components of tragedy, which does not 'succeed'.

And Simon, it was you who introduced us to that grand 'Month in the Country' of Ashton, which has the glorious Chopin 'Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise' in it. That is GREAT MUSIC, although I can't be sure you noticed, of course... And it's not so much that it's more about the dance than the music, but that this is also the way I'd rather hear this gorgeous piece--much rather look at Dowell and Seymour than all but 2 or 3 pianists I know. I bet the 'Rite of Spring' was pretty passable with Nijinsky in it too, and that everything was a magnificent explosion, not least the fierce and angry crowd. But there's Petrouchka and Pulcinella too, although I've never seen them, but I've seen Firebird and that's sensational both dance- and music-wise. Cristian, that's hilarious about 'Van Doren', she's not one of the ones I'd tend to call by her last name as a 'great master' type, but I also like her in that movie; it's the only time I ever saw a Needle Bra. However, aside from Monroe, only Nichols (Barbara, that is) is the only other Great Master in this field. Thank you.