papeetepatrick

I still want to see POB's 'Wuthering Heights' more than any other ballet--it sounds like the best new evening-length ballet in decades. I'd like to see their 'Jewels' too, but with another ballerina in 'Diamonds' from the one on the DVD. I don't even care if she's French or in the company or not, but they probably do. But that was the least satisfying on the DVD, even though I see Mlle. Gillot praised for many other things, no doubt deservedly.

Oh yes, I'm going to look that up too. I'm really interested in these things that started with Denishawn right now, and also the other night watched that old vhs with all thes Denishawn pieces in it, including 'White Jade' and also Stuart Hodes as St. Francis. I liked a lot of it, although it's clear they all broke away from it to make their own work. I liked some of Ted Shawn's pieces a lot too, more than the St. Francis I think, and this was my first time to see any of the St. Denis and Shawn pieces.

Should I call NYPL or the Doris Humphrey Society? I really would like to see 'the Shakers' and I've never actually gone over there and watched the non-circulating things. Or should I just go on over to the Lincoln Center Library, I could watch several of your tapes in that case.

Yes, it's very much the Greek chorus feeling, and I like 'soviet-realist style heroine'. I wouldn't have thought of that myself, but it makes sense.

Yes, and that description of the 'calls' reminds me of some strange sounds in one of the 3 dances on the With My Red Fires. The narrator had said (I think) that 'New Dance' came first, but on the tape 'New Dance' and 'Prelude and 3rd Theme' were presented in what seems to be reverse order. One of these dances had some agonized or wailing that I imagine to be some kind of flagellant cry or something. I'm getting a little more tolerant of some of these saints and sin-fighters than I used to--told a friend that by their nature they have to disabuse themselves of us, but we don't have to reciprocate, and this makes us freer--this all happened less than 2 weeks ago at the Getty Center looking at old Illuminated Manuscripts of the Desert Fathers that I finally began to understand these extremely self-sacrificing figures better. And that includes, to some degree the Shakers, where Mel's background is very good. I was aware of a good bit of it, and Mother Ann was quite the character. After what you've said, I'm going to review 'With My Red Fires' again too, I remember violent trembling, and maybe it seemed to go to the fingertips, but mainly the Matriarch there was disapproving of young lovers. I want to see The Shakers, and am going to look into seeing it. Part of it is wanting to hear the Shaker hymn done by the actual Shaker. This will no doubt be very different from what Copland did with the Simple Gifts in App. Sping: I've seen it written that this is an almost exact replica of the tune, but it is more accurate to say that it's 'readily recognizable' (he's even changed a few of the actual notes of the tune, so that it has a smoothness that still sounds folksy, but also rich, which is not strictly Shaker--and, of course, the characters in the Graham piece are not Shakers). In the Graham piece, Copland glamorizes the tune so that it fits with the rest of his score, and it's all irresistible, although, of course, this is a little like hearing Kiri TeKanawa's version of 'Danny Boy' or 'Comin' Through the Rye'. There is much material for me to look through here, and as I see these first things I'll report back. Ms. Humphrey herself really looks like something from the 15th or 16th century paintings in the Air film--Botticelli? I'm not sure, but I also saw a bunch of these last week, and there's always that pale, soft face in some of those pictures.

I'm going to see this one too, and this concludes the ones I can see from circulating collection. That one with the 'LaGuardia' credit did say Reusch video, didn't it? Otherwise, I don't think I'd have known. Anyway, whatever you have time to tell me about any of these will be most appreciated. I saw there is a Humphrey bio and a book by Ernestine that I will want to look at as well. Thanks for the great work! José Limón & Company Kent, CT : Creative Arts Television, c1999. Call #: VC 793.28 J Subjects Limón, José. Modern dance. Format: [videorecording] / Responsibility: choreography: Doris Humphrey, José Limón. Language: English Description: 1 videocassette (27 min.) : sd., b&w ; 1/2 in. Notes: VHS. Modern dance. Original production: c1956. Contents: Day on earth -- Lament for a bullfighter ; The moor's pavane ; The exiles -- Theater piece ; Nightspell. Summary: José Limón and his colleagues perform modern dance; Limón is interviewed by an unidentified host. Performers: Ruth Currier, Lucas Hoving, Betty Jones and José Limón, dancers. Additional Authors: Limón, José. Humphrey, Doris, 1895-1958. Currier, Ruth, 1926- Hoving, Lucas. Jones, Betty True. Dynix #: 1554124 Holdings: Reservable Copies: 1 Number of Holds: 2

I think this is what I saw, you can look at this and see whether they got the place mixed up, which is certainly possible with these things: Air for the G string Hightstown, NJ : Dance Horizons Video, c1997. Call #: VC 793.28 A Subjects Humphrey, Doris, 1895-1958. Modern dance. Choreographers -- United States. Series Doris Humphrey legacy Format: [videorecording] / Responsibility: presented by the National Doris Humphrey Society ; choreography by Doris Humphrey ; music by Johann Sebastian Bach. Language: English Description: 1 videocassette (90 min.) : sd., col. and b&w ; 1/2 in. Notes: VHS. The 1st performance filmed Oct. 28, 1928 in the Civic Repertory Theater, New York ; the 2nd, Oct. 22, 1995 in the Fiorello H. LaGuardia High School for Music and Art and Performing Arts, New York. Summary: Two performances: (1) Doris Humphrey and four members of her dance company ; (2) students coached with detailed commentary by Ernestine Stodelle, a member of the original group. Performers: Doris Humphrey, dancer ; Ernestine Strodelle, coach ; other performers. Additional Authors: Bach, Johann Sebastian, 1685-1750. Suites, orchestra, BWV 1068, D major. Air. Humphrey, Doris, 1895-1958. Stodelle, Ernestine. Doris Humphrey Society. Dance Horizons Video (Firm) Dynix #: 1289675 Holdings: Reservable Copies: 2 Number of Holds: 0

This one is on hold for me right now (I'm pretty sure). It looks like it contains the Air, but also whole dances. Doris Humphrey technique, its creative potential, with four early dances Pennington, NJ : Dance Horizons Video, c1992. Call #: VC 793.28 D Subjects Humphrey, Doris, 1895-1958. Modern dance. Choreography. Format: [videorecording] / Responsibility: conceived, written and directed by Ernestine Stodelle ; photographs by Barbara Morgan. Language: English Description: 1 videocassette (47 min.) : sd., col. and b&w ; 1/2 in. Other Title: Doris Humphrey technique, the creative potential [videorecording] Notes: VHS. Contents: Quasi-valse -- Two ecstatic themes -- Etude patetico -- Air for the G string. Summary: A series of studies for understanding the Doris Humphrey style. Includes illustrations of falls, turns, flow, leaps, leverage and more; commentary for a clip from a 1936 silent film; sequence of photographs by Barbara Morgan; and three examples of reconstructed early dances. Concludes with 1934 film, Air for the G string, with Doris Humphrey performing the central role. Performers: Doris Humphrey. Credits: Host, Ernestine Stodelle. Additional Authors: Humphrey, Doris, 1895-1958. Stodelle, Ernestine. Dance Horizons Video (Firm) Dynix #: 1315023 ISBN: 0871271850 Holdings: Reservable Copies: 2 Number of Holds

This is the one with Dalienne doing some kind of 'shaking', but I don't know if this was inspired by the Shakers the way the eponymous one was. Can you tell us something about 'The Shakers?' With my red fires and New dance two masterpieces of modern choreography by Doris Humphrey / Pennington, NJ : Dance Horizons Video : Distributed by Princeton Book Company, c1989. Call #: VC 793.28 W Subjects Modern dance. Video recordings. Format: [videorecording] : Responsibility: an American dance Festival presentation ; produced by Ted Steeg Productions, Inc. Language: English Description: 1 videocassette (65 min.) : sd., b&w ; 1/2 in. Notes: Title from container. VHS. Contents: With my red fires (1936) : performed by American Dance Festival Repertory Company at Connecticut College July 28, 1972 (solo dancers: Dalienne Majors, Raymond Johnson, Nina Watt) / music by Wallingford Riegger -- New Dance (1935) : choreography by Doris Humphrey and Charles Weidman (Prelude and third theme) ; reconstructed 1972 ; performed by American Dance Festival Repertory Company at Connecticut College, June 30, 1972 (soloists: Linda Tarnay, Peter Woodin) / music by Wallingford Riegger. Additional Authors: Humphrey, Doris, 1895-1958. Weidman, Charles. Riegger, Wallingford, 1885-1961. Selections. Connecticut College American Dance Festival. Repertory Company. Connecticut College American Dance Festival. Steeg Productions. Added Uniform Title: With my red fires (Choreographic work) New dance (Choreographic work) Dynix #: 116994 NNBR#: 923300800 ISBN: 0916622932 : Holdings: Reservable Copies: 1 Number of Holds: 0

Amy, this is just GREAT!!! Thanks so much for all of what you've told me thus far. I have several things coming in, and am going to start with this post listing NYPL descriptiions of available tapes. I can't always tell which of them are yours, but you can tell me about which ones I've put up. As for the LaGuardia thing, the credits were speeding by at the end, and I did rewind once, but it may have had to do with something else. I still have the tape here, and will FF to the end and solve this mystery of how I dreamed up some Fiorello LaGuardia High School. Bear with me, as I'm going to put all these tapes up there. To begin with, I did find Ernestine just adorable and beautiful, though. I know you must have loved knowing her and working with her. I'm going to put them in separate posts like they do the Links, so it doesn't get too confusing. Two dances Hightstown, N.J. : Dance Horizons Video, c1999. Call #: VC 793.28 T Subjects Modern dance. Format: [videorecording] / Responsibility: by Doris Humphrey ; Carla Maxwell, artistic director ; José Limón Dance Foundation. Language: English Description: 1 videocassette (43 min.) : sd., col. ; 1/2 in. Other Title: Title on cassette: Dance works of Doris Humphrey: Part II Notes: VHS. Modern dance works. Taped in performance at the Teresa Carreño Theatre, Caracas, Venezuela, Apr. 6, 1990 (1st work); Joyce Theater, New York, N.Y., Nov. 22, 1995 (2nd work). Contents: Ritmo Jondo -- Day on earth. Performers: Members of the Limón Dance Company ; Michael Cherry, piano (2nd work) ; unidentified orchestra (1st work). Additional Authors: Humphrey, Doris, 1895-1958. Maxwell, Carla. Cherry, Michael, pianist. José Limón Dance Company. Added Uniform Title: Ritmo jondo (Choreographic work : Limón after Humphrey) Day on earth (Choreographic work : Humphrey) Dynix #: 1699248 Holdings: Reservable Copies: 2 Number of Holds: 0

Yes, that's logical. I wonder if that shaking that the Matriarch does in 'Red Fires' is based on Shaker movements, however. I can't find the thread where rg mentioned Humphrey's 'Shakers', but it's not available at NYPL as reg. circ. materials. Anyone who knows both pieces will know if this 'shaking' by Ms. Majors is similar to the dancing movement in 'The Shakers'. There's no 'shaking', unless it's subtle, to the Shaker tune in 'App. Spring.' I'd been struck with the Matriarch toward the end of the piece, and wondered if that is something Humphrey used often in her work.

I thoroughly enjoyed watching Ms. Stodelle, one of the original members of the Humphrey dance (at least the one that is filmed and shown twice within this video), coach some La Guardia High School students in a performance of it. Amy, this is your work, isn't it? I see some other titles that I'll be looking at that are about Humphrey technique and include Ms. Stodelle. I would be interested to know if this extremely careful kind of 'every detail' kind of coaching is used often, as I've had only experience years ago in playing for class, and that's not like this. Or perhaps it's because they aren't professionals, and Ms. Stodelle needed to explain virtually whole philosophies of movement and relationships to these young students. It seemed to me the most exemplary and devoted kind of teaching, and it was wonderful to see the original Humphrey film twice. As a piece, I probably enjoyed more Humphrey's 'With My Red Fires', which I also recently watched (I'm not sure this is also Reusch Video, not having it with me). I don't know much about Humphrey, although I'm picking up some details now in the McDonagh book on Graham, but my immediate impression is this fascination with statuary--and there are, of course, all these long scarves in 'Air for he G String' which Ms. Stodelle is very determined to make 'come to life' as well. I believe in another thread, rg mentioned a Shaker dance for Humphrey when we were talking about the Shaker tune in Graham's 'Spring', but I'm not sure that the shaking I saw in 'Red Fires' was what this was. I was very impressed with some of this, especially Dalienne Majors as the matriarch. I hope Amy will tell us some more about this and her work with Humphrey dancers and Ms. Stodelle. I would also like to ask if Dalienne studied at Juilliard, as I believe I remember her from a class we had together, taught by the brilliant Vida Deming on the Short Novel. I can see why Graham and Humphrey have been called 'fire and ice', though, because Humphrey is engaging in a very different way. Some of the sudden jolting violence in the 'Red Fires', which I watched twice thus far, impressed me the most, as with Ms. Majors's 'shaking' movements. These kinds of movements work well with the Wallingford Riegger score. Thanks.

Mel--obviously I agree with all of this, and in any case, there are all sorts of sufferings that composers as well as all creative artists go through. Chopin, Mozart, Beethoven's deafness, even Haydn (his marriage was no bed of roses), Debussy's most paradisical music (the 12 Piano Etudes, the Sonata for Flute, Viola and Harp) written when he was at his most physically ill (and this can never mean mental happiness), Rachmaninoff's depression during the 2nd Piano Concerto (if my memory serves me here). Ultimately, all those personal-suffering contributions have to be subsumed to what is heard as the musical material and experience, and no amount of reconstituting it for 'modern sensibilities', as Adorno did with great alacrity, can exert nearly the influence on ears and musical minds that many of its often pompous claims assert. A few intellectuals will agree that 'Beethoven is dead', but this is concurrent with continued audience demand to hear the 9th Symphony at Carnegie Hall; they don't care what Adorno said. Oh, now I see what I was confused about. You meant Tchaikovsky himself was thought post-WWII to be 'merely loud', when I wrote this up I thought you meant by 'the composer', as 'composers [all of them] were thought to be merely loud.' I hadn't known this about Tchaikovsky, that that had been his reputation. As well, knowing he wrote the Grand Pas after his sister's death changes my opinion not a whit from what it was, but rather puts into historical context--but personal historical context, not musical historical context. The changes in artistic historical context seem to be years-long phenomena, as I've been noting in McDonegh's book on Graham, and fairly gradual, although I can't say this is always the case. One can surely hear and see something in works that had a great personal impact on the creator's life, but whether it changes the general 'period' that was going to be inevitable for their work is probably unlikely. Since we've been beating the dead horse of the Grand Pas, though, it could be that I find it so unsatisfying precisely because Tchaikovsky is such a great melodist, which you hear in the operas quite as well as in the great ballet scores. It's vaguely satisfying within the whole Act II by its contrast to the charm of all the other dances, but it doesn't come anywhere near what one hears in SB Act III whether in pas de deux or divertissement--I always love the Jewel Fairy and any of the Bluebird music, as well Canary and the other Fairies in the Act I. The one way I can hear the Nutcracker Grand Pas and it make sense is as a kind of 'Miniature Grand', which may attempt to keep it within the scale of what 'grand' would mean for children, rather than adults (which is related to the theme of this thread, although musically 'childlike' or 'more adultlike'), and perhaps 'Miniature Overture' gives a clue to this need to keep the entire ballet within a relatively small dimension of perception and vision. Maybe none of it is meant to be 'grand' in the usual sense of the word even when the word 'grand' is not applied. Do you think that makes any sense? The 'real grand', at least in Tchaikovsky ballets, would be in the more adult Swan Lake and Sleeping Beauty. In that way, the simplicity of the G Major Scale placed (at the beginning) on the supertonic A Minor 7th, going then merely to the Dominant 7th, and ending the first phrase on the G Major tonic to E Minor, may then be a childlike version of the 'dramatic'. Or something like that?

Oh, I would. Possibly higher.

Is that what the Soviets did? How is it possible that they would know what such a thing would be? Is it part of Sovietism to be want to be 'in line with psychological depth' of anything? Since the individual is debased, or at least subsumed, in Sovietism, this sounds like something from Tass agency. Which doesn't mean I don't know there is obviously great Soviet ballet, but there's also the well-known Soviet psychiatry, so maybe they had some Lacanian therapists who knew what to do with scores written under the White Russians, given that so many of these had to be used to run the bureaucracies after they went out of fashion and lost the best offices where they'd held sway,now supervised by half-educated (at best) Marxists. With all due respect to Tchaikovsky's grief, the Grand Pas seems to convey the emotional paralysis part, which happens to some of us in the early stages of grief, but for the Bolshevik ethos, that probably passes as 'psychological depth', given that it's not something they ever spent a lot of time on. And if they did, how would they know how to determine what 'psychological depth' pre-Bolshevik meant? They'd reinterpret it, most likely. Reminds me of Lenin's absurd comments on the Appassionata Sonata. As for the score of the 'Nutcracker', it has little or no psychological depth, and isn't supposed to IMO; that's the delight of it. Oh well, maybe Dance of the Reed-Flutes and Trepak do convey something 'deep'..

That's what Fonteyn initially said about dancing with Nureyev, and that pairing turned out quite well. Fonteyn never looked like 'mutton dressed up as Lamb', but definitely the pair looked like a cosmopolitan older woman/young man type of couple found only in sophisticated urban environments (when it looks that good, there are obviously some 'Harold and Maude' types elsewhere). Also, the pairiing is beautiful because it doesn't emphasize the sensual (which doesn't have to be all that consciously striven for, it emphasizes itself--that happened a lot with Farrell and Martins, for example, and I doubt they discussed it much, probably never, but I'm sure they were fully aware of it), but rather their deep affection for each other which onstage would be extended into a kind of beautiful old-fashioned romanticism. Sometimes the age difference between them is charming in a slightly ironic way, and in 'Le Corsaire' I just love her because she seems ever so slightly naughty and amused at doing a bit of slight slumming and vulgarity (or something like that). Maybe he was better with a 'lady type', because in that old film of 'Corsaire' with Sizova, she definitely upstages Nureyev, and without even trying, just because she is so luscious and gifted a born ballerina-animal. It's the only time I've seen a dancer outshine Nureyev, although it probably happened in his last years.

http://www.nycballet.com/casting/wk7.html?...er1_TSMenuID=30

It's not out of place when you're talking about 'most handsome dancer'. That does not mean 'princely' nearly all the time, and could include candid photos as well as posed or photographed onstage. In the 80s, I saw Peter Martins on the street in white jeans, which was much better a way of seeing his handsomeness than in BlackGlama fur ads, in which he appeared (to underwhelming effect, IMO). In fact, I think Martins is one who does look better offstage than on. Of those 3, I'd probably take Gomes's as being the best, though, since the Bolle goes OTT but not far enough.

Somewhat, but there's a lot of variation. "As you age", according to your sensibility, constitution, and predilection, it can go even higher and last even longer, but with much more time in between--that's what ripening is all about. It's the rapidity that is always, or almost always absent. I'd agree, though, that most people do choose to imitate Obama's 'not too high when we're up and not too low when we're down' (may not be exact), and my policy is to just do it this way most of the time, but not nearly always. Otherwise, what's the point of bothering? Moderation is not the hallmark of all fine things. Not quite sure why you think internships for college grads are infantilizing, but may be tongue-in-cheek about the term. For the rest, I don't think about dancers except for Nutcracker in terms of age of dancer--sometimes dancers can look great quite aged, and sometimes even with great 'baby ballerina' technique, their callowness is too much of what you get. I never really love Clara or Marie looking too big, but I guess I don't even see that as 'infantilizing adults', although I can see the point. It's just that they look like big children, or better they look like adults combed like children and dressed in baby clothes, and Gelsey was no exception.

Yes, she did as well as possible, but it always reminds me of an art history class on Italian Baroque painting, the British professor referred to 'a rawther lahge angel, it always looks a bit dangerous to me...', and this was pretty apparent, given that the blessed and blessing angel was filling up half a room. So while Gelsey may be the best one could have if one insists on these adults acting children, even she looks like 'a rawther lahge child.' It is true, though, that she's all I remember well about this video, which I only got around to watching about 4 months ago.

Definitely mine, too, EXCEPT...in the matter of taping, my memory of McBride/Villella just on crummy black-and-white TeeVee is more meaningful to me in terms of principal dancers than when I've seen the Balanchine Nutcracker live--but not the rest. I love the Balanchine 'Nutcracker', and is, in fact, why I chose not to go see the Kirov last week in Los Angeles and look at hair shirts on illuminated manuscripts instead; while I knew there would be great dancing, I still don't think it can be as gorgeous as the NYCB version. And this is even when hearing repulsively fast tempos making performances undistinguished--versions of 'Waltz of the Flowers' like for Mighty Mouse cartoons or something. But the First Act is perfect. I suppose you're all referring exclusively to the Nutcracker needing to be seen in person rather than on video, rather than all dance. Because my experience is that the best Sleeping Beauty is the Kirov movie with Sizova and Soloviev more than any I've seen in person, and there are a few other examples--'Appalachian Spring' with Martha and Stuart and Bertram and Matt is even better in the black and white movie than even fine performances I've seen live. Were people talking about live vs. taped in general, or just Nutcracker? Of course, if I could see ENOUGH live performances, I'm sure I'd find that those taped performances I like best were better with the beloved casts than they are on the movies and tapes I love. But as for charm of the whole Nutcracker, the piece is much more wonderful live than recorded, even though I don't like the music to the Grand Pas de Deux, it's about as flat as it gets. I've also seen a lot of Nutcrackers on tape in the last few years, and haven't really cared for any of them, whether Bolshoi, Royal, Baryshnikov and somewhat strange-looking Gelsey, and I think a Kirov one too.

Your second paragraph basically answers the question. It reminds me of Louis Horst, who realized his music would not be respected independently of what he wrote for Martha Graham's dances, but some of it is very good, and Don McDonagh calls his score for 'Primitive Mysteries' a small, unflawed gem. Works that achieve independent concert status will usually be more muscular and concentrated as such, but works to 'accompany' dance or theater can be of fine quality, of course--but they simply have also to serve other purposes than purely musical ones. A problem for me is that I like some of the 'specialist composers' quite a bit better than the others. And frankly, even though Glazunov is always very pretty, I don't want to hear that much of it. So that some of it is determined by what it has to combine with (and this has to do with the vogue you mention, which can often get called 'period piece' years later) and , and musically this will usually mean less freedom in an important sense. With Tchaikovsky, not nearly all will even think his ballet scores are on the level of his symphonies or the famous piano concerto--I like most of Tchaikovsky's ballet scores, but I definitely think the B Flat Minor Piano Concerto is greater music heard by itself than is the 'Miniature Overture', so there are a lot of degrees of this. I like, although maybe not love, some Delibes, but Minkus I can usually do without, and don't know any Adolph Adam I'd want to hear without 'Giselle', and even then it needs a near-perfect, inspired performance to really come off. Then there are concert composers whose music may not be as good as the best dance scores--Saint-Saens is very much of the period, and most do not consider him quite 'great', but sometimes performances can take such things to a higher level. Just some notes on how complex the interesting issue is.

Anita Page 'retired gracefully', for those for whom that matters (it doesn't as such to me, they all lived their own lives as they needed to or wanted to. Their vanity about their looks is their business, and that's what they wanted. Being a recluse is all right. Most of these Golden Age stars were characters, I don't see that it's realistic to be 'normal' or 'graceful' about the old age if you weren't in the young age, and plenty weren't either.) In fact, Page did that back in the 30s and only died a few months ago at 98 or 99, always an honoured personality throughout her later years, being the last remaining person, or 'famous person', to attend the first academy awards. She was a charmer in her heyday, and 'You Were Meant for Me was written for her. We neglected to write her up. I don't see anything ungraceful about Bette Davis's senior moment years, I'm glad she did all the pulp she wanted to, her presence was always welcome, even as 'Widow Fortune' in the miniseries 'Dark Secret of Harvest Home', based on the Thomas Tryon novel. Illnesses and being bedridden are bound to cause depression, and wouldn't be cause for 'doing old age poorly', and this is the same for famous people as those who aren't. For 'retiring gracefully', Deborah Kerr and Lillian Gish did it the best I can think of. Edited to add: And if 'retiring gracefully' does not only apply to those who become at least octogenarians, Audrey Hepburn certainly did so as gracefully as possible, working in Somalia for the UN only months before her death--and not trying to control all her publicity with contracts as are some of the current 'good works' types, which is perfectly odious.

I think Marlene was a splendid relic, I'm glad she kept going--just what would 'Touch of Evil' be without her? Not to mention 'Rancho Notorious' and working with Burt Bacharach and doing big Broadway solo shows. Had a fantastic sense of humour. We all have our personal affections, I wish Angela Lansbury had bowed out 10 years ago. But I do think the remark was curious, because Garbo is the only one he's really accurate about, and her bowing out is at least as annoying as it was admirable; she just didn't want to do it anymore. And it only applies to a certain kind of actor, one who is associated a bit more with 'screen presence' than acting. Nobody ever says that about Vanessa Redgrave or Catherine Deneuve, because they haven't become relics and their roles are creative, grow in their maturity--and Redgrave is plenty old enough for it to apply by now. But Crawford was a gross relic for my taste (I wonder how he imagined that 'she'd bowed out', because she surely did not; amazing to think of the pretty woman of the early 30s and the hard look in such things as 'I Saw What You Did') and there might be those who could have lived with a few less aged Kate Hepburn roles (I know I could have lived without 'On Golden Pond'), even though she did continue to do great acting work as a very old woman, so was only sometimes 'too much relic'. I just said this because dirac said that about the women, but I actually think there are plenty of men who needed to 'bow out' too.

That's not really my experience, though. It can refer in a mean way to someone's looks still (fashionistas talking about women most often, I guess), although I agree there's 'sly dog' and related terms. Then there's the pseudo-cool 'he ain't nuthin' but a hound dog' as used, for example, by Maureen Dowd for Giuliani and/or Clinton (Bill, of course), which is somewhat neutral, in that the recipient things he's wonderful to be the hound dog, although he may be making a fool of himself in the eyes of others. 'Cool cat' still has more status, though, as with Obama.