About Style and Aesthetics - Baryshnikov and Godunov

[lmspear]

I'm sure that they have, just like Salvador Dali put a mustache on the Mona Lisa.  It becomes a comment on the original work but does not replace it 

[Meliss]

20 minutes ago, volcanohunter said:

Try it. Stand in front of a full length mirror and turn your straight legs out from the hips. Bend and lift your right leg until your pointed big toe is placed next to the knee of your left leg, but without raising the right hip. It's very difficult. But the higher the foot goes, and when the toe is closer to the inside of the leg, the more objectively difficult it is to do, and the greater the technical skill required to do it.

Likewise, rising very high onto the ball of the foot is objectively more difficult than barely raising the heel off the floor.

Thank you, it's very interesting, but the second photo didn't open. As for the first one, "more difficult" doesn't mean better or more beautiful, does it? 

Edited July 17 by Meliss

[Meliss]

[volcanohunter]

There is such a thing as a classical ideal and ballet dancers have always strived to achieve it, just as they have always worked to improve their technical abilities. One of the reasons ballet focuses on turnout is not only because command of those muscles gives a dancer physical control, but also because more of the body is visible. It makes for clearer shapes in space.

[Meliss]

39 minutes ago, volcanohunter said:

There is such a thing as a classical ideal and ballet dancers have always strived to achieve it,

[Meliss]

Edited July 17 by Meliss

[volcanohunter]

1 hour ago, Meliss said:

I don't love the look of Anna Osadcenko, but that's primarily a question of her severely hyperextended joints and "banana" feet, which are popular in some circles, particularly in contemporary Russia. Fortunately this is still alien to New York City Ballet, where rapier-straight legs continue to dominate.

The tilt of Osadcenko's tutu is a good indicator that her hips are not level. However, for William Forsythe's work, extreme positions are not unacceptable and may even be desirable.

[On Pointe]

6 hours ago, Meliss said:

That's exactly what I meant. So comments like these - "The stretch of the feet and legs, high Demi-pointe, placement of the foot in passe, etc would not hold up today"- seem strange to me.

 

6 hours ago, Meliss said:

I think most viewers are not focused on such minor details.

When it comes to ballet,  truly " God is in the details".  The details are what makes it so hard.  Like it or not,  ballet has a definite aesthetic.  You can be a very good dancer with knees that don't completely stretch,  no turnout,  and unpointed feet,  but you can't be a good ballet dancer.  (You can also have perfect legs and feet and a beautifully proportioned body and be dull as dishwater.)

Godunov had height and long legs,  and power.  I didn't find him particularly handsome while others did,   but in person he had charm to burn.  What he didn't have was the drive,  the technique and the stage persona of the others.  He simply didn't.  

[Helene]

I don't agree with either statement.  That doesn't mean that the people making them weren't genuine. 

[Drew]

8 hours ago, Meliss said:

The book "I, Maya Plisetskaya" was published in 1994.  How can the Art of the greatest ballet dancers become outdated?? So Shakespeare will soon become obsolete).

We don't usually perform Shakespeare the way it was performed in his day--with young men or adolescent boys playing the women's roles.  (A few companies have tried it--I saw one such production and did not particularly like it.) The pronunciation and enunciation was also likely very different in Shakespeare's day, and other aspects of performance have probably changed a lot too since many of his plays were performed outdoors in theaters where audiences seem to have been a bit roudy--I doubt subtlety would have been as effective as it can be in a modern theater.  For Shakespeare the more appropriate ballet comparison would be to a choreographer anyway. Does Petipa look dated?  No, I don't think so, but I also know that performance practices have changed since Petipa's day--just as they have changed since Shakespeare's.  The Petipa I see has often been modified and updated by various others through the years. In Russia, Gorsky but also Grigorovich and K. Sergeyev, among others, have revised Petipa's choreography.  i don't think all of these changes are for the better, but when choreographers have tried to reproduce all the details of Petipa's nineteenth-century choreography or of the stylistic approach of nineteenth-century dancers, audiences have been very divided in their reactions. For example the use of demi-pointe for chainé turns in Ratmansky's reconstruction of Sleeping Beauty can look quaint and, in my experience, even awkward when done in modern pointe shoes. As for the lower leg extensions in all directions . . . not everyone is a fan. 

When it comes to great performers--especially someone like Plisetskaya--I think people can sometimes, when watching video, make the imaginative leap to enjoy another era's way of dancing or acting. Plisetskaya often seems magnificent by comparison with many of today's dancers; but she doesn't fit the current aesthetic even at the Bolshoi. Perhaps she was always sui generis. And I know that when I first saw video of Pavlova I had to work to understand her mesmerizing impact on audiences across the globe -- which is testified to many times over by those who saw her--and it was easier for me to understand when watching film of her pantomime than of her actual ballet dancing.

It's even embarrassing to say so but as a child I expressed puzzlement to my mother when I first saw a photo of Legnani: she looked quite plump to me when I expected a ballerina to look slim.Do you think someone with Legnani's figure wouldn't stick out on the stage of the Bolshoi or Mariinsky today? Of course they would and she was one of the most important ballerinas in the history of ballet. Ballet is a performing art and the way people perform and expectations in body types changes over the years. Not necessarily for the better--some wonderful Bolshoi qualities have been lost in recent years and I recently sighed over video of Fonteyn dancing Odette with seemingly greater speed and sharper phrasing than any ballerina I've seen dance the role in recent decades. But other marvelous qualities have (at times) taken their place.  This doesn't mean Legnani or Pavlova or Plisetskaya or Fonteyn were not among the world's greatest performing artists. I personally enjoyed and admired aspects of Godunov in the Raymonda posted above and think that with the training and coaching given to today's dancers Godunov would still have emerged as a leading dancer--he had the charisma and physical gifts--but that doesn't mean that he would dance exactly the same way that he did in the 70s and 80s.

I do, in fact, have sympathy for the idea that there are some classical ideals and standards intimately bound up with the foundations of ballet technique [edited to add: I missed @volcanohunter's post mentioning turn out but that is key, even if it can be manipulated in intriguing ways by a Balanchine]; still, video and photographic evidence plus plain old human memory, shows that the art form does, nonetheless, undergo some shifts. So, for example, cleaner dancing is more common now at the Bolshoi--also slower. So, the dancing can be more precise but also less exciting than in Godunov's generation. And the art form altogether is capacious up to a point: an arabesque that looks exactly right in Balanchine won't look right in Ashton etc.

Edited July 18 by Drew

[Helene]

11 hours ago, Meliss said:

And in which ballet should a dancer do 10 pirouettes?

Smack on the music:

Edited to add: live TV, too.

[volcanohunter]

13 hours ago, Meliss said:

So comments like these - "The stretch of the feet and legs, high Demi-pointe, placement of the foot in passe, etc would not hold up today"- seem strange to me.

The reason details like these are important is that they make a dancer's legs look better, which surely is something everyone wants: dancer, choreographer and audience. The higher a dancer is able to stand on the ball of his foot, the better he is able to stretch his legs and feet, the longer the line of his leg will appear, and the instep and heel of his supporting foot will form part of the line, rather than looking like something that interrupts and shortens it.

I haven't posted any active dancers and won't post examples of "bad" form.

[Meliss]

On 7/18/2024 at 8:10 AM, Helene said:

Smack on the music:

Edited to add: live TV, too.

Thank you. 

From the memoirs of Natalia Trubnikova, who starred with Godunov in the film "June 31": "He would unscrew seventeen pirouettes, slowly lower his leg, and we, the artists, scream with admiration just like the audience in the hall".

[Meliss]

On 7/18/2024 at 6:02 AM, Drew said:

Plisetskaya often seems magnificent by comparison with many of today's dancers; but she doesn't fit the current aesthetic even at the Bolshoi.

Why?

[Meliss]

On 7/18/2024 at 11:09 AM, volcanohunter said:

The reason details like these are important is that they make a dancer's legs look better, which surely is something everyone wants: dancer, choreographer and audience.

Godunov has perfect legs and an amazing appearance. He doesn't need any special tricks, his lines are beautiful in themselves.

[Meliss]

On 7/18/2024 at 3:54 AM, On Pointe said:

Godunov had height and long legs,  and power.  I didn't find him particularly handsome while others did,   but in person he had charm to burn. 

Yes, many people considered him exceptionally handsome, which is understandable: 

On 7/18/2024 at 3:54 AM, On Pointe said:

What he didn't have was the drive,  the technique and the stage persona of the others.  He simply didn't.  

Of course he did. Otherwise he could not have become world famous as a ballet star.

[Drew]

1 hour ago, Meliss said:

Why?

I guess I am comparing Plisetskaya with Zakharova --but perhaps one could say that both are sui generis -- that is hard to compare to others and, in that sense, "alike"--and one reason many of us loved the young Osipova was that she seemed comparable in her spirit and leaps to Plisetskaya. So that's against my own point!

 Plisetskaya did have a different body any of today's Bolshoi ballerinas and I am hard put to think that her weight would be acceptable in today's Bolshoi. I also think Zakharova is often a 'cleaner' dancer with more traditionally classical positions though she extends and pushes them through her extraordinary flexibility. But I never saw Plisetskaya live, so I think I may not be an expert here. It's just an impression.

In thinking about your question I also looked at video of the two of them dancing the Act III Kitri variation--I prefer Plisetskaya because of the speed and the stronger use of the upper body to give color to the movement. Again, my overall impression is that in decades past many leading Bolshoi dancers were faster and more exciting than they are now, but not always as clean and articulate in every movement as today's leading dancers. In her variation Zakharova is slower in the passés but also lifts her leg a bit higher to really show the position. I posted some video I recently found comparing Basilios--including Godunov--on the Godunov thread under 'Dancers' and I think It shows the differences, though you may see it differently. But for Kitri I would always choose Plisetskaya or (one of my very favorites) Maximova over most of today's dancers except, perhaps, for the very young Osipova. But I'm not a professional critic--just a fan with one fan's opinions!  

(When Kirkland danced Kitri she studied Plisetskaya's performance obsessively. You may remember she describes this in her first autobiography.)

Edited July 26 by Drew

[On Pointe]

37 minutes ago, Drew said:

(When Kirkland danced Kitri she studied Plisetskaya's performance obsessively. You may remember she describes this in her first autobiography.)

Which,  in my opinion,  was a colossal waste of time.  Kirkland was totally different as a dancer and performer.  It's also my opinion that Kirkland was miscast as Kitri in the first place,  like casting a coloratura soprano as Carmen.  The first time I saw Plisetskaya dance was in the Bolshoi's Don Quixote.  At one point she and her partner misjudged a one arm overhead lift and he almost dropped her. Instead of trying to play it off,  Plisetskaya rolled her eyes and let out a hearty whoop, turning a near disaster into a thrilling moment,  and the audience went crazy.  There is no dancer today with her huge stage personality,  and there hasn't been in some time.  Kirkland's great gifts did not include a warm personality and a sense of humor.  She was wonderful in the grand pas de deux,  but I didn't buy her as Kitri in the rest of the ballet.

Speaking of style and aesthetics,  I'm watching the opening of the Olympics,  and the French just presented the dullest,  most dispirited rendition of the can can that I've ever seen.  What the hell was that?

[Drew]

4 hours ago, On Pointe said:

Which,  in my opinion,  was a colossal waste of time.  Kirkland was totally different as a dancer and performer.  It's also my opinion that Kirkland was miscast as Kitri in the first place,  like casting a coloratura soprano as Carmen.  The first time I saw Plisetskaya dance was in the Bolshoi's Don Quixote.  At one point she and her partner misjudged a one arm overhead lift and he almost dropped her. Instead of trying to play it off,  Plisetskaya rolled her eyes and let out a hearty whoop, turning a near disaster into a thrilling moment,  and the audience went crazy.  There is no dancer today with her huge stage personality,  and there hasn't been in some time.  Kirkland's great gifts did not include a warm personality and a sense of humor.  She was wonderful in the grand pas de deux,  but I didn't buy her as Kitri in the rest of the ballet.

Speaking of style and aesthetics,  I'm watching the opening of the Olympics,  and the French just presented the dullest,  most dispirited rendition of the can can that I've ever seen.  What the hell was that?

I enjoyed Kirkland's Kitri a lot and found her convincing in the role, but I'll at least admit that you are not the first person to strongly disagree with me about this.  I will say something, though, about her as a comedian. I thought she was a fabulous--genuinely great--Swanilda. I saw her with Baryshnikov when she first joined ABT and their partnership was on fire. (Clive Barnes came down to Kennedy Center for that performance and wrote a rave review in the Times that a google search will turn up.) I also greatly enjoyed a much later performance with Charles Ward though she was in slightly more fragile shape.

However I completely agree with you about the can-can along the Seine during Olympics' opening ceremonies, which was sort of embarrassing. I wondered if the dancers were volunteers rather than professionals, as at some Olympic opening ceremonies, but NBC was no help; I also wondered if the pouring rain had discombobulated them. I found the whole distended display of outdoor entertainment along the river a bit uneven and hard to follow and made even harder by NBC's failure to explain anything clearly.  However I loved the final parts of the ceremony with the balloon-torch and Celine Dion. But perhaps this all belongs on a different thread...

Edited July 27 by Drew

[On Pointe]

2 hours ago, Drew said:

However I loved the final parts of the ceremony with the balloon-torch and Celine Dion. But perhaps this all belongs on a different thread...

I agree that this discussion might belong in a different thread.  But I was so struck by that can can I had to comment in the moment.  However I'm very glad I stuck it out,  because  that may have been the greatest performance in Celine Dion's career,  the rain be damned.

[Meliss]

9 hours ago, Drew said:

 Plisetskaya did have a different body any of today's Bolshoi ballerinas and I am hard put to think that her weight would be acceptable in today's Bolshoi. 

I don't understand what "different body" means and I don't agree that Plisetskaya had a weight problem. For example, here she is in 1987 or 1988. Slim as always. 

[Meliss]

8 hours ago, On Pointe said:

The first time I saw Plisetskaya dance was in the Bolshoi's Don Quixote.  At one point she and her partner misjudged a one arm overhead lift and he almost dropped her. Instead of trying to play it off,  Plisetskaya rolled her eyes and let out a hearty whoop, turning a near disaster into a thrilling moment,  and the audience went crazy. 

This is a very interesting point. And when was that? Who was the partner? Is there a video on YouTube? It would be interesting to see.

[Drew]

3 hours ago, On Pointe said:

I agree that this discussion might belong in a different thread.  But I was so struck by that can can I had to comment in the moment.  However I'm very glad I stuck it out,  because  that may have been the greatest performance in Celine Dion's career,  the rain be damned.

She was amazing!! (I loved the whole final part of the ceremony—The horse, the lasers, the balloon, but she was..,,Wow!)

1 hour ago, Meliss said:

I don't understand what "different body" means and I don't agree that Plisetskaya had a weight problem. For example, here she is in 1987 or 1988. Slim as always. 

I was thinking of how she looked in the black and white Don Quixote film. But even then (earlier in her career) she certainly did not have any kind of weight problem—I did not say that and would never say that. She belonged to a different era when expectations and tastes were different and in any era she would be gorgeous. But for a really detailed conversation about Plisetskaya best to talk to people who saw her live. I did not.

What I can say firmly is my own belief that amid continuities of technique and tradition, performance practices and tastes change. Companies change. Audience expectations change. Not always for the better—some qualities become more rare, but others are developed. (On the Godunov thread under “Dancers” I recently posted a comparison video of ten dancers performing Basilio’s variation, and it includes Godunov and Lavrosky and Baryshnikov; you might find it of interest if you have not already seen it.)

And I can say even more confidently that ballet is capacious enough as an art form to have room for different kinds of greatness. Fans may disagree on how they rank dancers or what they personally like, but ballet would be a bore if everyone danced the same way! 
 

 

Edited July 27 by Drew

[On Pointe]

6 hours ago, Meliss said:

This is a very interesting point. And when was that? Who was the partner? Is there a video on YouTube? It would be interesting to see.

This was in Chicago,  at the Arie Crown theater,  during one of the first western tours of the Bolshoi.  I was very young and I do not recall who Plisetskaya's partner was.  It would be interesting to see that performance,  but back then,  filming live performances was rare,  and video had not yet been invented.  

In those days there was great curiosity about the Russians,  or Soviets,  as they were more accurately called.  The Iron Curtain was still firmly in place,  and we rarely got a glimpse at our supposed enemies.  But one photo of Plisetskaya went viral.  She was in rehearsal wearing leg warmers,  which were previously unseen in the west.  This fascinated the public, they  became a fashion sensation,  and an entire industry was born!

[Meliss]

6 hours ago, Drew said:

But even then (earlier in her career) she certainly did not have any kind of weight problem—I did not say that and would never say that.

Then I don't understand what you meant by the following:

17 hours ago, Drew said:

I am hard put to think that her weight would be acceptable in today's Bolshoi.