papeetepatrick

This is what he said: "The public likes its warhorses, but it doesn't seem to care how well these warhorses get played. They are particularly susceptible to showboaters like Lang Lang and Izzy Perlman and Nigel Kennedy; they turn out in droves to hear Andrea Bocelli warble his way through the Shmaltzmeister's Songbook" In these two sentences, 'doesn't seem to care how well these warhorses get played' is immediately followed by 'particularly susceptible to showboaters like Lang Lang'. Is that not clear that it's the same people? My saying 'suspect' was tongue-in-cheek anyway, because I know what Lang Lang sounds like and don't need anybody to tell me how to judge him. I also know why he'd call him a 'showboater', which could mean he was very good and also that, as here, Queenan may not think he plays so well. I frankly don't care what Queenan think about Lang Lang's playing. I was talking about his writing.

The 'cultural elite' might not be comprised of only illumined audiences, but it never was. It includes the artists themselves, those in their inner circles, and their patrons and supporters (usually), and some of the audiences. It has always been a prestige object to start going to classical concerts, and always has to do with class, if one starts to do it at some point, not having done so before. Peter Gay is especially good on the economics of concert-going in 'Pleasure Wars'.

Saying he was a 'showboater' meant his 'serious credentials' were suspect. A 'showboater' is not an Artur Schnabel. Or is that too big a stretch to make on such a rarefied text? My impression was that upon cutting ties with the proletariat he had 'arrived' somewhere, and thought a cultural elite existed at least for a time in his 'development'. Of course this cultural elite is 'especially knowledgeable' about classical music, just as it is about ballet. And of course it still exists, it may have reconstellated in some ways, but without it there is not classical tradition in any of the performing arts. He's saying it doesn't exist any more is some jaded, world-weary thing, could even derive from theorists who talk about how elites are powerless by now, and everything is all pop culture. And talking about 'jazz is literally dying' is exactly like those who says 'ballet is dying' or 'irrelevant', except with even less basis. This whole site is supposed to be able to prove that ballet is not dying; and certainly jazz has infinitely more followers and fans than does ballet. If anything, jazz involves many classes of people, and is not necessarily elitist. The classical arts don't survive without an elite core. There were never audiences in the United States in a broad sense that are as widely educated in the arts as are many audiences in, say, Germany or Austria, where the tradition of the favorite music comes from. And Russia has always had ordinary people going to ballets, long before some people in some American cities started doing it (and even there, not many.)

You pointed out some interesting aspect to this 'crank', and it certainly does have its comic value. What I like about the above is that he passed through the proles into the bourgeois, but one wonders what class he was now in once 'this sense of membership of a cultural elite has evaporated'. (at least he didn't say 'vanished'. ) Had he found something perhaps *astonishing* or even *incomparable* up in that new ether? Or had he remained a prole all along, looking back wistfully to a more innocent time? Yes, he not only knows what Stockhausen and Penderecki 'really sound like to everyone who is honestly (read, 'like him') listening to it', he has informed me that Lang Lang is not only suspect, but whether by virtue of 'hothouse flower freakish' or 'unexciting' I wasn't sure. I had no objection when I heard him do Rachmaninoff 2nd at the Philharmonic in 2002, although I'd rather hear Richter, I imagine. He's a good pianist, what's the big deal? We're not to robots yet. Actually a little strange to hear about Babbitt in the list. Now that is a point: I know not a soul who is deeply in love with the music of Milton Babbitt, and I do not think a huge fad in Babbitt concerts is in the offing. (I've had Boulez maniacal periods, and Webern ones too, but never a Babbitt marathon-listen. There's one piano piece 'Partitions' I used to like). Edited to add: I just looked some more of Babbitt up, though, and would be interested in recommendations, esp. would be interested to know what the Piano Concertos sound like. But he is quite a good buffoon, I agree, esp. with that Stones crack and his movement up into ethers.

Yes, you can say that, and I couldn't disagree more, but it's the kind of thing that cannot be settled, only stated one way or the other. Nor do I think 'Ninotchka' is at all of the first rank; I think little of it. Many people, myself included, think 'Grand Hotel' and 'Camille' and 'Anna Christie' and 'Queen Christina' (hokiness doesn't mean 'not great', all D.W. Griffith is hokey) are as good as anything Hepburn or Davis or even Olivier or Gary Cooper or Clark Gable or Claudette Colbert made in the same period. And that's all I have to say about this, because it has to do with ways of determining what constitutes 'the first rank', which don't need to be inflexible.

Sweet Charity definitely underrated. One of Ms. MacLaine's best.

She probably wouldn't have, nor would she have envied stage stars who were superior to her. Not that envy is something to recommend, nor are the diva wars the deepest of dialectics. But what you say somehow broke the spell I was momentarily under, and I've cancelled all my holds on further films: This actress interests me very little, only Scarlett really--she has little generosity and looks like Liz Taylor in 'National Velvet' all the time. Streetcar is Brando's picture, even though I know Williams thought she was great in it. I see her as one of the best stage actresses on film, never as interesting as Olivier except as Scarlett. Even in 'That Hamilton Woman', five minutes of Gladys Cooper refusing Olivier divorce was more riveting than anything Leigh did the entire picture. She's good, but not a great movie star IMO, much like Jean Simmons. Yes, I'd meant to include Barrymore among Garbo's strong men, along with Gilbert, Boyer, March and Taylor. She did not need wimps in those light romances that I named, but I don't know how much she had to do with it. Also do think about half of her films are very good, but this kind of thing is visceral to a degree. Anyway, at very least Anna Christie, Camille and Grand Hotel. I'll get back on-topic by saying that I think Barbra Streisand's two best films are Hello, Dolly! and Yentl, and they've both been much-criticized (and the criticism is understandable, but still...I think they are underrated, especially the former, which is one of the very small number of near-perfect film adaptations of a B'way musical, probably had a lot to do with Kelly.)

It's mostly repellent, and says more about trends in criticism than music. Salonen has been having some real success, as I've pointed out before, with introducing lots of new music. I would agree with this sourish-toned troll that jazz enthusiasts are more knowledgeable than the majority of concert-goers: It's enough that they go so it's supported for awhile. But it's not true that 'jazz is literally dying' because the funding goes to classical. Jazz has never primarily been state-funded. There are things that are dying--old-style cabaret has mostly legends for any lengthy engagement and only the most A-list like Karen Akers need apply--but jazz is all over the place in clubs in cities. I don't know what he's talking about. I like 'infantilism' for Philip Glass, though--I envy him that one. It's mostly a kind of rhetoric, to some degree useful, but very misleading. There are smaller contemporary musical groups all over the world, and more than ever. Maybe things just splinter off into smaller pieces, instead of the big concert hall world. Of course, he doesn't even mention the inconvenient British masters like Tippett and Britten--maybe they're too 'bourgeois', but certainly Carter is much more so. The British always seem to be left out of the contemporary classical discussions and they can actually bridge the gap. I find them quite as satisfying in a great many of their works as most of the great 19th century composers, and it's not necessary to see Boulez and Stockhausen and Berio as the only important voices: It's as if to say, well THEY are the real contemporary thing, but LOOK--nobody likes them, and I don't either anymore. I like Carter well enough, and he's not difficult to listen to at all, but I'm not passionate about much of it either. And he's wrong that Bernstein never became a great composer. He doesn't have to be Wagner to be great, and just like Balanchine, it's okay if he worked on Broadway. That counts, no matter somebody like this can barely get the piece out in thick jabs. He's just hired to write this kind of half-hack-, half-serious thing, that's all it is.

Recently watched Jules Dassin's 'La Loi', which was released in the U.S. with the hilarious paperback 50s title 'Where the Hot Wind Blows'. I think it's a great movie, not as good as 'Rififi', but Dassin is always interesting, touches of Welles and even Visconti here and there, episodes rolling out of each other in the oddest way. Melina Mercouri looks like all the Greek goddesses, and Montand is Macho Superbe. Lollobridgida is better here than anything I've seen her in, and Marcello is good in early role, but outshone by the other three (at least here). Plus there's also Pierre Brasseur as Don Cesar and beautiful b & w photography in Italy (I think it's Italy. There's a lot of talk of Greeks, but everybody speaks French.)

Oh yes, thanks for putting this, I definitely want to see this one most of the new ones this thread is coming up with. The more 'talk, talk, talk' with those two the better. I suppose their 'kingfisher' is well-loved by fans of this (and perhaps other things they may have done together), but I found it unwatchable with all that 80s TV-movie gloss on it; also Hiller still looked good and full of life in 1983, he didn't, I thought, and also didn't have much of the old sparkle. Think 'Susan Lenox (Her Rise and Fall)' is definitely underrated. Shows the kind of range Garbo had, and isn't like any of the others; you see more of what she was capable of as an actress, with less of the goddess complex emphasized. It's certainly much more alive than things like 'Romance', 'Inspiration' and 'As You Desire Me', and she tolerated a worthy male star for a change, Clark Gable. Of course, there were also John Gilbert, Charles Boyer and Robert Taylor (the latter at least looked the part), but she did have co-stars that would seem weak with her even if they were good elsewhere. It is an important addition to her oeuvre, and is very absorbing, it doesn't matter that it wasn't perfect. I also remembered 'Secret Ceremony' with Mitchum, Taylor and Farrow, which I hated when it first came out. But I watched it a few years ago and it's a good entertainment, and Liz and Mitchum are terrific.

I think this is wonderful, but could be said to be underrated only in the U.S., perhaps? I know British, French and Swiss who think it's great. Another in that series that is excellent is 'Tale of Winter'. He was very important in those old early-90s GATT negotiations in which the French held onto their own cultural power against pretty pushy odds (even Jeanne Moreau said 'I don't give a damn' as I recall), and I think there have been good results due to this strong defense. The kinds of things canbelto deplores in today's Hollywood films (as lost) have certainly continued in France through Techine, in Wild Reeds (1994) and perhaps even in the Italian Cinema Paradiso from about 1989. I've seen La Rayon Verte 2 or 3 times, and always loved it, especially the Biarritz part with the chattering Swedish girl. Although by and large I much prefer Techine to Rohmer, what I do like about Rohmer is that street sounds exactly as one hears in cities are always kept in the soundtrack during outdoor scenes, so you get an immediacy much keener than when you just see big crowds on the sidewalks, like in, say, that Pfeiffer/Clooney formula comedy 'One Fine Day', where these sounds are removed or diminished greatly. Maybe you're talking about something very refined, in which you think 'Claire's Knee' and 'Ma Nuit chez Maud' have been given their due, but not Le Rayon Vert (also called 'Summer' I believe, although there is also a later 'Conte d'Ete'.) Some of the other Rohmer things like 'Percival' and the 'Marquise of O' I don't care for quite as much, but that may have nothing to do with overrated or underrated.

Thanks, sidwich. I'm going to watch it.

That's not really true. Leigh was certainly sharp-tongued about Hollywood, but when she did commit to a film project, her devotion and professionalism were almost fanatical. She was one of the few people to ever get along with Marlon Brando, for instance. Speaking of underrated movies, see "Waterloo Bridge" because it was Leigh's favorite film. And contains some of her best acting. It's a weepie in the best sense of the word, although Robert Taylor is very very wooden, as was his wont. No argument about her professionalism (and DeHavilland stressed this a few years ago), but that's not the same as being primarily a movie star (or only one) as is Catherine DeNeuve, and although K. Hepburn did do some stage work, she's primarily a film star, so that you should see these quotes. I imagine she was looking down on some of the glamour queens like Crawford, Turner, Dietrich and even Garbo--but in some ways, even when less skilled as a disciplined actress (all that Shakespeare Leigh did with Olivier definitely made her great at what she was great at), they can prove to have a more effective movie talent, so she was being snobbish. This is no big deal, and easily understandable, but just for the record, these quotes: "She wrote to Leigh Holman, "I loathe Hollywood.... I will never get used to this – how I hate film acting." Gone with the Wind brought Leigh immediate attention and fame, but she was quoted as saying, "I'm not a film star – I'm an actress. Being a film star – just a film star – is such a false life, lived for fake values and for publicity. I had read 'Waterloo Bridge' was Leigh's favourite film and am looking forward to it. And that 'that Hamilton Woman' was Churchill's, he showed it off, and was crazy about Leigh, thought she was delightul. Of course, she's a greater actress in the classical sense than, say, Joan Crawford, but that doesn't mean a B-movie like 'Flamingo Road' wasn't needed by the world, and that's one place where Ms. Crawford is doing something that nobody could have done better. My way of judging an artist of any kind is 'have they done at least ONE really good work?' Not that that should be anybody else's criterion, but I think Ms. Crawford made TWO whole good movies! P.S. Haven't seen Juno or Little Miss Sunshine. I've done my quota of recent films for at least 6 months, they always get me in a mostly bad mood, but I did like 'No Country for Old Men'. Back to Siegfried and the Ring Cycle!

If anything, critics have been overly respectful of it over the years. I’d put it in the ‘overrated’ thread. They began to praise it after the stars died, if I'm not mistaken, but not when it came out. The film itself has never been touted especially highly, but with these actors and Thelma Ritter to boot, it cannot be overrated in a certain sense, because it has become an icon in which the usual rules don't apply. Somewhat like certain dancers whose techniques are no longer flawless, but their auras are more aggressive than ever. I'd disagree only about Leigh, who I think is perfection and, even though I know about the illness and miscarriage, is as beautiful of that sort once all the Cleopatra makeup goes on as almost any woman has ever been onscreen. I think, with her limited emotional range, with the obvious selfishness and kittnenishness, she is perfect in this kind of very surface and mannered role, which is also the case with Scarlett and Emma Hamilton. Selznick was right not to let her do 'Rebecca' and 'Pride and Prejudice' though--she's way too glamorous and vain for the 2nd Mrs. DeWynter, and way too glittering for Elizabeth Bennett. I've been studying her a bit recently, and saw 'St. Martin's Lane', in which she is not even sympathetic as a street urchin, because always a bit cold and artificial. I think that's why some critics thought of her as a 'small talent' compared to Olivier--and sometimes she is; but that's not quite right; it's just a very circumscribed talent. She's better at stage technique and hated Hollywood anyway. She had a tiresome attitude toward film stars, many of whom were actually better at films than she was. But I still want to see 'Waterloo Bridge' and also compare her 'Anna Karenina' with Garbo's (I doubt she can be that grand, that she can ever act on a heroic scale like Garbo.) She is not really lovable as a persona, which I find strange, but I nevertheless find her most admirable and rather singular (even if I often think I'm seeing either Jean Simmons or Liz Taylor).

I thought it was moving too, but this is one that did at least get plenty of publicity when it came up, and somebody even gave me tickets to screenings, etc. The kind Helene and I were listing could, of course, be called 'underrated' in that they are never mentioned, but people do know about 'Gilbert Grape' at least. I'd list several hundred of the totally unknown type, I'm sure, including almost anything that comes out of China except the Gong Li, et alia, things, anything from Iran, Africa, most of Asia, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, not to mention even most of Europe. Indies all over the place. I imagine 'Gilbert Grape' wouldn't have still attracted a sensation-oriented audience in the early 90s when it came out. That kind of thing of simple sincerity had already become pretty marginalized. I can't say I like it as much as classics like 'Member of the Wedding', but it was good to see something like that still surfacing, and there was some very good acting. Best example of a 00's family drama that I've seen is 'Les Temps Qui Changent' with Deneuve and Depardieu, and whose virtues I extol any time I get the chance. It gave me great hope that some basic and endangered attributes of humanity were not being certainly lost (I know that sounds a little extreme, but I'm not kidding. Some of the kids' interest in horror-concept sci-fi as being the 'true reality' at this point is driving me half-insane.)

Jennifer Jones in 'Beat the Devil', watching it right now. I guess it's supposed to be Englsh, but it comes out as this ridiculous-sounding thing that makes you think of dentures (and sometimes they disappear as she can't sustain this). I've never seen this picture, and someone wanted me to, plus it's got Bogart. But even though I have a serious allergy to all of this actress's performances, this is perhaps the most grotesque and grating. Another one that needed a name change bad: Phyllis Flora Isley from Oklahoma. I'll never understand how she made it.

Very nice, carbro. Made me remember the Royal Dance Theater of Bhutan in the late 70s at Carnegie Hall. I had not been able to quite enter into the spirit of it, as I have much Indian dance and also the Dance Theater of Cambodia, which I saw about 1991 at Joyce Theater. I believe the real Bhutan is still supposed to be much as it always has been, and spared some of the strife of recent years that nearby Kashmir has suffered. But the colors of the dance costumes and sets come back from your photos.

Nicole must have gotten over it, of course, putting up with Lars for a whole film starring herself ('Dogville'), although I didn't see it because of her. I did like 'Dancer in the Dark' very much though.

I don't think this example is exactly the 'underrated' definition, in that it--and others like it--never got a chance. although I sympathize with this sort of thing. I think these 'lost or unpublicized films' are really another category, but a few examples along this line for me are John Korty's 'Silence', which I saw only once on black-and-white television and have never forgotten (more famous is his 'Crazy Quilt', which was very much praised as a small film in the 60s or 70s, and is not even available on vhs or dvd, and so I've never gotten to see it), Patrick Keiller's 'London', a superb film which is well-known in the UK, but showed at Film Forum for only a week or two and is even harder to get than the sequel 'Robinson in Space'. Really, almost anything that goes to the Quad Cinema across the street from me from Tunisia or something else really remote, like the lovely 'Satin Rouge' about a beautiful belly dancer, is going to be unknown to almost anyone you mention it to. There are dozens in this category, but these films are not going to catch on whether or not they're worthy, so that I think they never even get to the underrated point, having never become known.

'Diva' from 1981--ugly garish colour and the diva, Wilhelminia Fernandez, is totally without any charisma or any kind of obvious beauty that a general audience could ever sympathize with as making a pretty young boy obsessive . The story is stupid, and the look is on almost as tacky a level as 'Life is Beautiful', another lethal bore.

Caesar and Cleopatra (1946)-Claude Rains, Vivien Leigh, Stewart Granger Two for the Road (1967)-Audrey Hepburn, Albert Finney Love Has Many Faces (1965) Lana Turner, Cliff Robertson, Stephanie Powers. Hugh O'Brian The Carpetbaggers (1963) Carroll Baker, George Peppard, Leif Erickson Gypsy (1963) Rosalind Russell, Natalie Wood, Karl Malden The Misfits (1961) Marilyn Monroe, Clark Gable, Montgomery Clift

Barcelona is, isn't it? That's why everybody wants to go inspect it, I thought. Or it's got some heavy districts that people write about. Oh well, so does Berlin have a lot of vile bars. I like her in several of the Godard films, esp. A Woman is a Woman, Alphaville, Band of Outsiders, and Pierrot le Fou (I love Pierrot le Fou, and Belmondo is great in it). Obviously, I like some Godard a lot (but definitely not all of it.) I like some Almodovar pretty well, but agree totally about Tarantino. I can't stand the films nor his movie-nerd image. The Kill Bill movies are repulsive, and when the concept of Musedom gets to Tarantino 'n' Uma Thurman, it's time to throw in the towel and get all nihilistic like the well-paid theorists.

I imagine a lot of us are surprised that Farewell to Arms woud be required reading in Castro's Cuba. Anyway, I agree with all this, and love the books too.

I think that's an excellent idea, and I wouldn't have thought of it. 'American Gangster' is very musical, like a piece of cool, velvety jazz. The editing is state-of-the-art but includes several sensory elements as if counterpoint in a way that thoroughly surprised me. It's hypnotic without seeming drugged. I wonder what operas would be best for him? Maybe some of the 20th century American ones, but I bet he could do wonders with 'Pelleas et Melisande' too, as I think that could be extremely visual, cinematic. But maybe Britten's gorgeous 'Midsummer Night's Dream' as well.

I love the Arlen score and still have an ancient LP of it, the one with Judy perched on a stool. I think she sings marvelously in it. It was worth everything it cost in all ways IMO. Garland didn't have any more musical roles (that I know of), but she did have 'Judgment at Nuremberg', not to mention 'The Judy Garland Show'. However, glad to finally find someone who doesn't like 'Philadelphia Story'. I can't stand Miss Hepburn in it, no allure at all. I find I either love her or hate her--but worst is her casting in 'Madwoman of Chaillot', which either of her accompanying madwomen, Margaret Leighton or Edith Evans, would have done a thousand times better. As it is, for anyone tired of her bossiness and eager to see her receive at least one good comeuppance, Leighton upstages her without even trying, and Evans positively demolishes her (I'm going to go to the IMDb slums in a moment and find Mankiewicz's hilarious quip about Kate...). It was peculiar how this immediately followed 'The Lion in Winter', which I thought worked and also thought she was excellent in it. Well, we are allowed to disagree to all eternity then. I understand your well-written English sentence, but cannot find how it corresponds to reality , therefore, call me cowardly, but I will never take the risk of not checking who the director is again after this one... Edited to add Joseph Mankiewicz's immortal "The most experienced amateur actress in the world" for Kate. Amusing, but I think 'Long Day's Journey Into Night', and perhaps 'Suddenly Last Summer', renders that to some degree null and void. But Dame Edith unquestionably was able to let her know who was the real boss.