About Style and Aesthetics - Baryshnikov and Godunov

[Meliss]

21 hours ago, volcanohunter said:

 

The Winners Are Not Judged film is preposterous. It purports to voice interior thoughts of Godunov and Baryshnikov that no one else could possibly know, distorts facts (such as that Baryshnikov was fired as director of ABT) and puts forth the absurd idea that Baryshnikov took revenge on Godunov for growing taller than him.

Yes, I agree that it would be more accurate to say that Baryshnikov was forced to leave his post due to the fact that in his conflict with ABT Executive Director Jane Hermann the executive committee of the ABT board voted complete approval of Hermann's position.

[Meliss]

10 hours ago, Drew said:

Among American ballet fans, there was huge excitement during the 1979 tour over many of the Bolshoi male stars. but as I remember all the American fans in my circles and all the U.S. critics I read at the time seemed more drawn to Gordeyev who had a purer classical style than Godunov. I do remember one ballet-going acquaintance -- a little older than I -- praising Godunov specifically as a performer--in another English idiom, we might say  "a stage animal" ,(this is a compliment if that's not clear). 

I have asked a lot of times in comments on YouTube to show  examples of Godunov's "insufficiently clean" performance of some ballet elements - indicating the exact time in the video so that we can see it. None of his "critics" have ever done this. 

Gordeyev was a very good dancer.

As for "a stage animal" , it is quite clear that it is a compliment. I saw similar compliments to Godunov, for example: " Like a huge graceful cat jumping". Or:  "I’ve seen the beastly dominant panther-like way that Alex ruled a stage". It's really great!

[Meliss]

7 hours ago, On Pointe said:

How do you think he died?

My versions can't be taken into account. But his death was strange and unexpected for everyone who knew him including his doctor. 

[Meliss]

6 hours ago, Helene said:

 As it goes, an autopsy is generally done within 24 hours of death, and he'd already been dead for over a day when his body was found. 

If the death is unexpected, strange, for unknown reasons, an autopsy is necessary even after a long period of time.  Four of the tourists who died at Dyatlov Pass in February 1959 were autopsied in May.

6 hours ago, Helene said:

There were dancers that I saw on Bolshoi tours that I thought were better than what I remembered of Godunov.  The Bolshoi Theatre can choose whom they want, and we can question their choice, especially since it's hard to argue about the others on the list.  Those who like Godunov and agree can feel vindicated on his behalf, and it doesn't really matter what anyone else things.

Of course, there's no point arguing who's better if we can't compare the performance of the same roles on video. By the way, this is often done on YouTube, but more on an emotional level than on a professional one.

[volcanohunter]

25 minutes ago, Meliss said:

I have asked a lot of times in comments on YouTube to show  examples of Godunov's "insufficiently clean" performance of some ballet elements - indicating the exact time in the video so that we can see it. None of his "critics" have ever done this. 

I don't think anyone is obliged to watch videos at someone's request, much less provide a written analysis of them. Personally, I also don't see why anyone should feel obliged to respond to any YouTube comment, unless, perhaps, if they are responsible for an institutional account, such as an orchestra, in response to an inquiry about the piece played as an encore, for example. 

[Meliss]

3 hours ago, volcanohunter said:

Bearing in mind that I was a child at the time (and I’ve relayed this story more than once here, so I apologize for being a broken record), my first exposure to the Bolshoi was with Grigorovich's Romeo and Juliet, starring Bessmertnova as Juliet, Bogatyrev as Romeo, Tsivin as Mercutio and Godunov as Tybalt. I hated the production and years later discovered that most dancers, audiences and critics thought the same. In particular I thought that the death of Tybalt was the most ridiculous thing I had ever seen. But it was inherently absurd. I didn't revisit the production for many, many years, but when I did see it again, it simply reconfirmed my first impressions, and the death of Tybalt looked ludicrous regardless of who danced it.

Oh... But where could you see it again??? 

There are a few very short excerpts from Godunov - Tybald on YouTube, but I've never seen the death scene. I will be very grateful for the link. And then we'll discuss what's ridiculous  about it).

Edited Thursday at 08:29 AM by Meliss

[Meliss]

6 minutes ago, volcanohunter said:

I don't think anyone is obliged to watch videos at someone's request, much less provide a written analysis of them. Personally, I also don't see why anyone should feel obliged to respond to any YouTube comment, unless, perhaps, if they are responsible for an institutional account, such as an orchestra, in response to an inquiry about the piece played as an encore, for example. 

I quite agree with you here. But criticism that cannot be supported by facts is not serious.

Edited Thursday at 08:29 AM by Meliss

[volcanohunter]

22 minutes ago, Meliss said:

Oh... But where could you see it again??? 

There are a few very short excerpts from Godunov - Tybald on YouTube, but I've never seen the death scene. I will be very grateful for the link. And then we'll discuss what's ridiculous  about it).

I have only seen Grigorovich's Romeo and Juliet in live performances. I have never felt inclined to revisit it on video.

[Meliss]

30 minutes ago, volcanohunter said:

I have only seen Grigorovich's Romeo and Juliet in live performances. I have never felt inclined to revisit it on video.

I see. It's a pity it is impossible to see Godunov in that scene now, but I will look for Grigorovich's Romeo and Juliet with other dancers.

[volcanohunter]

There would have been almost no opportunity to film Godunov in Grigorovich's production. It was staged for the Paris Opera Ballet in 1978, although Bessmertnova and Bogatyrev appeared in the second cast as guest artists. It premiered at the Bolshoi in June 1979, about a month before the company began its North American tour. Godunov may have danced Tybalt in two or three performances in New York before he defected; I don't have a schedule of that tour. By the time the tour ended, both of the Bolshoi’s Tybalts, Godunov and Kozlov, had defected. Obviously, different dancers performed the role subsequently. 

[Helene]

6 hours ago, Meliss said:

have asked a lot of times in comments on YouTube to show  examples of Godunov's "insufficiently clean" performance of some ballet elements - indicating the exact time in the video so that we can see it. None of his "critics" have ever done this. 

If there is little footage of Godunov, it would be difficult to produce "evidence" of whether he was clean or not.

 

6 hours ago, Meliss said:

quite agree with you here. But criticism that cannot be supported by facts is not serious.

Nor can praise, if the "facts" are limited to available video.

[Meliss]

Just now, Helene said:

If there is little footage of Godunov, it would be difficult to produce "evidence" of whether he was clean or not.

 

These comments are written under those videos where different dancers perform the same fragments of ballets. Something like that: 

 

[Meliss]

3 hours ago, volcanohunter said:

There would have been almost no opportunity to film Godunov in Grigorovich's production. It was staged for the Paris Opera Ballet in 1978, although Bessmertnova and Bogatyrev appeared in the second cast as guest artists. It premiered at the Bolshoi in June 1979, about a month before the company began its North American tour. Godunov may have danced Tybalt in two or three performances in New York before he defected; I don't have a schedule of that tour. By the time the tour ended, both of the Bolshoi’s Tybalts, Godunov and Kozlov, had defected. Obviously, different dancers performed the role subsequently. 

Yes, there are very few.  To my mind the last photo is after Giselle, not after Romeo and Juliet.

 

Edited Thursday at 02:51 PM by Meliss

[Helene]

12 minutes ago, Meliss said:

These comments are written under those videos where different dancers perform the same fragments of ballets. Something like that:

Comments written by non-ballet professionals on the internet outside Ballet Alert! are not for discussion here.  Whether you can discuss them where they are posted/published is subject to the rules and policies of those places.

[Meliss]

22 minutes ago, Helene said:

Nor can praise, if the "facts" are limited to available video.

Available video is better than nothing.

[Meliss]

1 minute ago, Helene said:

Comments written by non-ballet professionals on the internet outside Ballet Alert! are not for discussion here.  Whether you can discuss them where they are posted/published is subject to the rules and policies of those places.

It's OK, I was not going to discuss them here. 

[Helene]

18 minutes ago, Meliss said:

It's OK, I was not going to discuss them here. 

You already have, by posting that you asked them for evidence that they didn't provide.  That is not an acceptable discussion point here.  Nor would anyone here be obligated to provide you with similar evidence or try to meet your standards.

The rules here are to discuss the subject, not other posters, and what other non-professionals say anywhere else is not valid for discussion.

If you have any further questions about this, please DM me.

 

[On Pointe]

If anything,  this discussion is proof that truly,  there is no accounting for taste.

Comparing apples to apples,  in my opinion,  when it comes to 6'2" blond male dancers active in the time period,  Peter Martins had no equal.

[Helene]

If he hadn't already transitioned to character dancing and running companies by that time, I'd raise you one Erik Bruhn.  Although I'm not sure how tall he was: he may have just looked tall 😃 on stage.

If Bruhn had still been dancing, Godunov may have been compared to him at least as much, if not more, than Baryshnikov.

 

[On Pointe]

9 minutes ago, Helene said:

If he hadn't already transitioned to character dancing and running companies by that time, I'd raise you one Erik Bruhn.  Although I'm not sure how tall he was: he may have just looked tall 😃 on stage.

If Bruhn had still been dancing, Godunov may have been compared to him at least as much, if not more, than Baryshnikov.

 

As a kid,  I had the honor of being on stage with Erik Bruhn,  and being "baptized" by his sweat as it flew off his head in a perfect arc as he performed flawless coupé jetés.  Bruhn was very handsome,  the first blond man that I considered attractive,  and he was technically flawless.  But he wasn't tall,  5'8" maybe.  If he was in the 6'2" club,  he definitely would have been head of the class.

[Meliss]

25 minutes ago, On Pointe said:

If anything,  this discussion is proof that truly,  there is no accounting for taste.

Comparing apples to apples,  in my opinion,  when it comes to 6'2" blond male dancers active in the time period,  Peter Martins had no equal.

Did he have any rivals among the brunettes?

[On Pointe]

2 hours ago, Meliss said:

Did he have any rivals among the brunettes?

In the 6'2" club,  no.  Ballet is very hard on the bodies of tall men.  It's physics,  it takes tremendous effort to move that much mass through space,  and landing big jumps is tough on feet and ankles.  Dancers of that height were rare when Martins was dancing.  When I saw NYCB recently,  I was astonished by the number of big,  tall men are now in the company.  (Lots of tall blonde women,  too.)

[Helene]

ABT was thought that Bissell, a 6+ plus brunette, was the next great thing, important enough to sponsor his rehabs and to keep rehiring him.  I wasn’t on that train.  

d’Amboise was a different kind of dancer, whose technique would not be in the same pristine class, but Balanchine did create some of his most difficult variations for him, and he had huge stage presence.  His knees were pretty shot by the mid-late ‘70’s, and in the early ‘80’s, I only saw him in Meditation and Davidsbundlertanze.  Maybe also Union Jack.

[Meliss]

12 hours ago, On Pointe said:

In the 6'2" club,  no.  Ballet is very hard on the bodies of tall men.  It's physics,  it takes tremendous effort to move that much mass through space,  and landing big jumps is tough on feet and ankles.  Dancers of that height were rare when Martins was dancing.  When I saw NYCB recently,  I was astonished by the number of big,  tall men are now in the company.  (Lots of tall blonde women,  too.)

 

11 hours ago, Helene said:

ABT was thought that Bissell, a 6+ plus brunette, was the next great thing, important enough to sponsor his rehabs and to keep rehiring him.  I wasn’t on that train.  

d’Amboise was a different kind of dancer, whose technique would not be in the same pristine class, but Balanchine did create some of his most difficult variations for him, and he had huge stage presence.  His knees were pretty shot by the mid-late ‘70’s, and in the early ‘80’s, I only saw him in Meditation and Davidsbundlertanze.  Maybe also Union Jack.

Thank you very much. By the way, do you have favorite ballet dancers? Could you please give links to your posts about them?

[lmspear]

16 hours ago, On Pointe said:

In the 6'2" club,  no.  Ballet is very hard on the bodies of tall men.  It's physics,  it takes tremendous effort to move that much mass through space,  and landing big jumps is tough on feet and ankles.  Dancers of that height were rare when Martins was dancing.  When I saw NYCB recently,  I was astonished by the number of big,  tall men are now in the company.  (Lots of tall blonde women,  too.)

This comment brought Charles Askegard to mind.  I remember he was 6'4" and danced with ABT under Baryshnikov and NYCB, under Martins. Where does he fit into this picture? I can't offer an opinion on him, he didn't stay in my long term memory.🥺