About Style and Aesthetics - Baryshnikov and Godunov

[Meliss]

12 minutes ago, Fraildove said:

Hepatitis is a log-term, chronic disease. If this was listed as the cause then there had been test previously to confirm the diagnosis, especially if he had been given any form of treatment (I have no idea if alcoholic induced hepatitis is treatable). But given his personal doctor’s own statements it seems that he had previously been diagnosed. 

And if a person who has two chronic diseases dies, should the doctor write any of them on the death certificate? Or the first alphabetically? Or the second one? Or both at once? And if there are three of them?)) I don't understand how it can be... What if he was poisoned? Should the doctor write it anyway - alcoholic hepatitis?

[Helene]

It depends on local laws and institutional policy.  It can be X, or it can b e X due to complications of Y.

If someone is poisoned or otherwise murdered, the cause is listed and sometimes qualified, as in head injuries due to a severe beating, or heart attack due to exposure to X gas, or injuries resulting from having been pushed out of a window.

If we're talking about Godunov specifically, poisoning is one big conspiracy theory, and until there is some evidence raised, not for discussion here.

[volcanohunter]

1 hour ago, Helene said:

There's nothing to substantiate conspiracy theories as far as I can see. 

I visited the ru segment of YouTube and found that conspiracy theories about Godunov's death are pretty rampant there. However, those films are riddled with errors. Within 2 minutes of the "escape to death" film, it passes off footage of Vladimir Vasiliev as Godunov, and the narrator states that during the Bolshoi’s 1979 American tour the company performed at the Metropolitan Opera House (complete with photo of the interior). It didn’t; those performances took place at the New York State Theater. I'm sure I'm not the only member of the board who attended.

There seems to be a lot of historical revisionism regarding Godunov. A few years ago the Bolshoi installed display cases in front of the theater, and the exhibit I saw featured legendary members of the theater: ballet on one side of the square, opera on the other. I was, frankly, extremely surprised to find Godunov's photograph among them. Really? With only 12 niches available, the list of the Bolshoi Ballet's most illustrious dancers of the Soviet era included Ulanova, Plisetskaya, Fadeyechev, Struchkova, Vasiliev, Maximova, Vladimirov, Bessmertnova and...Godunov? When even the above-mentioned TV program acknowledged that he had originated only one major role, and that his repertoire was limited? He seems to be held up as a cautionary tale of the failed American dream. Which he was.

Also, on the basis of such films a relative newcomer to ballet I know came to despise Baryshnikov. 

I haven't encountered similarly prurient interest in the fates of Valentina Kozlova and Leonid Kozlov, who defected during the same tour. Not immediately, but they were invited to join New York City Ballet, where she danced for the next 12 years until she retired, and where he danced for 11 years, deep into his 40s. I guess former NYCB principal dancers who run ballet schools aren't interesting.

[Meliss]

1 hour ago, volcanohunter said:

I visited the ru segment of YouTube and found that conspiracy theories about Godunov's death are pretty rampant there. However, those films are riddled with errors. Within 2 minutes of the "escape to death" film, it passes off footage of Vladimir Vasiliev as Godunov, and the narrator states that during the Bolshoi’s 1979 American tour the company performed at the Metropolitan Opera House (complete with photo of the interior). It didn’t; those performances took place at the New York State Theater. I'm sure I'm not the only member of the board who attended.

I completely agree with you that there is a lot of bias, mistakes and even lies in many Russian documentaries about Godunov. But some of the passages in them are true.

1 hour ago, volcanohunter said:

There seems to be a lot of historical revisionism regarding Godunov. A few years ago the Bolshoi installed display cases in front of the theater, and the exhibit I saw featured legendary members of the theater: ballet on one side of the square, opera on the other. I was, frankly, extremely surprised to find Godunov's photograph among them. Really? With only 12 niches available, the list of the Bolshoi Ballet's most illustrious dancers of the Soviet era included Ulanova, Plisetskaya, Fadeyechev, Struchkova, Vasiliev, Maximova, Vladimirov, Bessmertnova and...Godunov? When even the above-mentioned TV program acknowledged that he had originated only one major role, and that his repertoire was limited? He seems to be held up as a cautionary tale of the failed American dream. Which he was.

I have to surprise you again: Godunov is really considered legendary in Russia, actually one of the greatest dancers. He originated not one major role, but 3, and he also performed the main roles in 12 more performances in the troupe of the Bolshoi Theater:

1971 - P. I. Tchaikovsky. "Swan Lake". Staged by A. Gorsky, A. Messerer. Prince.

1971- P. I. Tchaikovsky. "Swan Lake". The production of Yu. Grigorovich. Prince.

1971- Shchedrin. "Anna Karenina". Staged by M. Plisetskaya, Natalia Ryzhenko, Viktor Smirnov-Golovanov.  Vronsky.

1972 - F. Chopin. "Chopiniana". A young man.

1973 - L. Minkus "Don Quixote". Basil.

1973 - J. Bizet — R. Shchedrin. "Carmen Suite". Choreography by A. Alonso. Jose.

1974  - G. A. Pakhmutova. "Enlightenment." Choreography by N. Ryzhenko and I. Smirnov-Golovanov. Favorite (1st performer).

1974 - A. Adan. "Giselle." Albert.

1974 - G. G. Mahler. "The Death of the Rose." Choreography by Roland Petit. A young man.

1974 - A. Khachaturian. "Spartacus". Choreography by Yu. Grigorovich. Spartacus.

1976 - T. Khrennikov. "Love for love." Choreography by V. Boccadoro. Claudio (1st performer).

1976 - S. Prokofiev. "Ivan the Terrible." Choreography by Yu. Grigorovich. Tsar Ivan.

1976 - I. Stravinsky. "Spring is sacred." Choreography by N. Kasatkina and V. Vasilev. Shepherd.

1977 - S. Rachmaninov. "Paganini". Choreography by L. Lavrovsky. Paganini.

1978 - L. Minkus. "Bayadere". The painting "Shadows". Solor.

1978 - S. Prokofiev. "Romeo and Juliet". Choreography by Yu. Grigorovich. Tybald (1st performer). 1979

 

1 hour ago, volcanohunter said:

 He seems to be held up as a cautionary tale of the failed American dream. Which he was.

1 hour ago, volcanohunter said:

 

I haven't encountered similarly prurient interest in the fates of Valentina Kozlova and Leonid Kozlov, who defected during the same tour. Not immediately, but they were invited to join New York City Ballet, where she danced for the next 12 years until she retired, and where he danced for 11 years, deep into his 40s. I guess former NYCB principal dancers who run ballet schools aren't interesting.

It's amusing that you have such an opinion about Godunov. He was not a failure in the least. He was loved by American spectators no less than by Russian ones. As for the Kozlovs, they were just good dancers, not so unique and brilliant as Godunov. As simple as that.

Edited June 25 by Meliss

[volcanohunter]

1 hour ago, Meliss said:

I have to surprise you again: Godunov is really considered legendary in Russia, actually one of the greatest dancers.

This is exactly the sort of historical revisionism I had in mind.

[On Pointe]

45 minutes ago, volcanohunter said:

This is exactly the sort of historical revisionism I had in mind.

But why Godunov?  By the way,  what happened to his ex-wife,  who refused to defect with him?  I believe she was "rewarded" when she returned to the Soviet Union after the standoff on the plane.

[volcanohunter]

My impression of those films is that there is an intention to blacken the reputation of Baryshnikov, who has never returned to Russia in the 50 years since his defection, describes Latvia's Soviet period as an occupation and remains a critic of the Russian government. Godunov is presented as his trusting, unsuspecting victim.

[On Pointe]

13 minutes ago, volcanohunter said:

My impression of those films is that there is an intention to blacken the reputation of Baryshnikov, who has never returned to Russia in the 50 years since his defection, describes Latvia's Soviet period as an occupation and remains a critic of the Russian government. Godunov is presented as his trusting, unsuspecting victim.

Yes,  even Nureyev went back,  when his mother was on her death bed.  Baryshnikov became an American citizen and has four American children,  including the very talented actress Anna Baryshnikov.  The cold war never dissapated completely.

 

[volcanohunter]

As for Lyudmila Vlasova, her first post-1979 tour appearances were as Beatrice in Vera Boccadoro's version of Much Ado About Nothing. She last appears in the Bolshoi archive as the Street Dancer in Don Quixote in 1982.

[Meliss]

8 hours ago, volcanohunter said:

This is exactly the sort of historical revisionism I had in mind.

Do you mean that the period when Godunov's name was deleted from all ballet encyclopedias is over in Russia? But that's to be welcomed, isn't it?

[Meliss]

8 hours ago, volcanohunter said:

My impression of those films is that there is an intention to blacken the reputation of Baryshnikov, who has never returned to Russia in the 50 years since his defection, describes Latvia's Soviet period as an occupation and remains a critic of the Russian government. Godunov is presented as his trusting, unsuspecting victim.

Hmm... But even the titles of these films say the opposite! For example, "Winners are not judged." Of course, Baryshnikov is considered the winner.

By the way, do you really think Godunov's dismissal from the theater was fair? In fact, it was a stab in the back. Godunov clearly did not expect this from a former classmate. And the explanation was simply gorgeous - Godunov had a "limited repertoire." Maybe it was reasonable to expand it, and not throw out a unique principal dancer from the theater?

[Meliss]

7 hours ago, On Pointe said:

Yes,  even Nureyev went back,  when his mother was on her death bed.  Baryshnikov became an American citizen and has four American children,  including the very talented actress Anna Baryshnikov.  The cold war never dissapated completely.

 

Do you know that Grigorovich invited Makarova and Baryshnikov to perform at the Bolshoi Theatre in 1988 or so? A good "war" on his part.

[volcanohunter]

54 minutes ago, Meliss said:

Do you mean that the period when Godunov's name was deleted from all ballet encyclopedias is over in Russia? But that's to be welcomed, isn't it?

My point is that including Godunov among the Bolshoi’s most distinguished dancers of the Soviet era, or even the latter Soviet era, is fanciful at best. He was a gifted dancer, but not one of the greats.

The Winners Are Not Judged film is preposterous. It purports to voice interior thoughts of Godunov and Baryshnikov that no one else could possibly know, distorts facts (such as that Baryshnikov was fired as director of ABT) and puts forth the absurd idea that Baryshnikov took revenge on Godunov for growing taller than him.

On stage, at least, Baryshnikov could be a good sport about his short stature.

Fundamentally, it's pointless to compare the two as dancers, because Baryshnikov's height "disadvantage" was one of the reasons he could dance circles around Godunov technically. No one could expect a dancer of Godunov's size to have the same sort of facility and ease of execution.

[Meliss]

5 hours ago, volcanohunter said:

My point is that including Godunov among the Bolshoi’s most distinguished dancers of the Soviet era, or even the latter Soviet era, is fanciful at best. He was a gifted dancer, but not one of the greats.

Yuri Grigorovich, the chief choreographer of the Bolshoi Theater, wrote about him in a 1977 newspaper: "Today Alexander Godunov is in the prime of his creative powers. He became a great and interesting master, occupying his strong position in the troupe. Our ballerinas dance with him with pleasure, which testifies to his high partnership qualities. A. Godunov's participation adorns any performance of the Bolshoi Theater repertoire, finally, he has his own audience who goes to his performances. A.Godunov is young ― he will soon turn 28, he is an Honored Artist of the RSFSR, winner of the Second Moscow International Ballet Competition, winner of the Vaclav Nijinsky Prize in 1976. We have the right to expect and expect new interesting works from him, in which his participation will bring joy to both the choreographers working with him and the audience."

[Helene]

As we have seen,  all recognized ballet professionals did not agree on Godunov.  I don’t know if there is a dancer about whom all recognized — the definition of which is not even agreed upon — ballet professionals agreed when assessing the same period of a dancer’s career, let alone a career.

Many dancers “[occupy a] strong position in [their] troupe” in their time.  It’s true of almost any dance company at any time.  It doesn’t speak historically, which is a different discussion.  Also, many dancers are spoken about in terms of promise and expectations, and their importance in the pantheon is whether they fulfilled that promise and those expectations.
 

 

[Meliss]

19 hours ago, Helene said:

Hepatitis was not listed in the official statement or, as far as I know, in the death certificate, although it was published as a cause and is perfectly conceivable*.  If a person's personal physician doesn't know that someone was a chronic alcoholic, I'm not sure who would.  His colleagues did: they wrote about it. 

*The Wikipedia article on him says he died of hepatitis, but the two links that supposedly substantiate this don't mention hepatitis.  There are numerous references to complications of hepatitis caused by alcoholism having been determined later as the cause of death, but I can't find sources for where this came from, while both official sources -- spokesperson, death certificate -- list acute alcoholism. 

There's nothing to substantiate conspiracy theories as far as I can see.  His alcoholism was well known and documented.  There are diseases alcoholics usually suffer from and often die from the complications of.   No matter how sad it is, and there's much about Godunov's life that is sad, it doesn't change the outcome of his disease.

I wonder why the doctor assumed that he died "of chronic alcoholism." And if he died, let's say, of a heart attack? And if for other reasons? It's sad that no one cared about it - neither the doctor nor Medann. And those who cared about it were not even informed about the fact of death. Moreover, the cremation time was changed by Medann from 8 a.m. to 5 a.m., without informing anyone about it. Isn't that weird?

[Helene]

The cause of death was stated by his personal physician, not an unknown coroner, so I have no reason to doubt that he knew what he was talking about, having known the health history of his patient.
 

I have no idea why the time of the cremations was changed. It was sad for his friends to miss it and not be able to say their goodbyes, but none of them had any standing to stop the cremation and to insist on an autopsy had it been held at 8am instead of 5am.

[On Pointe]

21 minutes ago, Meliss said:

I wonder why the doctor assumed that he died "of chronic alcoholism."

Maybe because that was an excellent assumption.  Doctors like to repeat the aphorism,  "when you hear hoofbeats,  think cattle,  not zebras".  Godunov was an alcoholic.  Alcoholism kills.  It kills relatively young people who are otherwise in good shape.  The doctor who was treating him would know what killed him better than any fan,  many years after the fact.

[Meliss]

3 hours ago, On Pointe said:

Maybe because that was an excellent assumption.  Doctors like to repeat the aphorism,  "when you hear hoofbeats,  think cattle,  not zebras".  Godunov was an alcoholic.  Alcoholism kills.  It kills relatively young people who are otherwise in good shape.  The doctor who was treating him would know what killed him better than any fan,  many years after the fact.

So alcoholics, in principle, cannot die from poisoning, heart disease, or other causes? Or does it just not matter, because the doctor knows better?

[Meliss]

4 hours ago, Helene said:

The cause of death was stated by his personal physician, not an unknown coroner, so I have no reason to doubt that he knew what he was talking about, having known the health history of his patient.
 

I have no idea why the time of the cremations was changed. It was sad for his friends to miss it and not be able to say their goodbyes, but none of them had any standing to stop the cremation and to insist on an autopsy had it been held at 8am instead of 5am.

His relatives had the right to insist on an autopsy, but for some reason Medann did not consider it necessary to inform them about this death. But OK, it's really no use discussing it now.

Edited June 26 by Meliss

[Meliss]

4 hours ago, Helene said:

As we have seen,  all recognized ballet professionals did not agree on Godunov.  I don’t know if there is a dancer about whom all recognized — the definition of which is not even agreed upon — ballet professionals agreed when assessing the same period of a dancer’s career, let alone a career.

Many dancers “[occupy a] strong position in [their] troupe” in their time.  It’s true of almost any dance company at any time.  It doesn’t speak historically, which is a different discussion.  Also, many dancers are spoken about in terms of promise and expectations, and their importance in the pantheon is whether they fulfilled that promise and those expectations.
 

Doesn't the following confirm Godunov's historical significance for ballet?

22 hours ago, volcanohunter said:

With only 12 niches available, the list of the Bolshoi Ballet's most illustrious dancers of the Soviet era included Ulanova, Plisetskaya, Fadeyechev, Struchkova, Vasiliev, Maximova, Vladimirov, Bessmertnova and...Godunov?

 

[Drew]

14 hours ago, Meliss said:

Do you know that Grigorovich invited Makarova and Baryshnikov to perform at the Bolshoi Theatre in 1988 or so? A good "war" on his part.

Makarova defected in 1970; Baryshnikov defected in 1974.  By 1988 change was clearly in the air. 1989 was when the Kirov first danced Balanchine.

Among American ballet fans, there was huge excitement during the 1979 tour over many of the Bolshoi male stars. but as I remember all the American fans in my circles and all the U.S. critics I read at the time seemed more drawn to Gordeyev who had a purer classical style than Godunov. I do remember one ballet-going acquaintance -- a little older than I -- praising Godunov specifically as a performer--in another English idiom, we might say "a stage animal," (this is a compliment if that's not clear). 

All this does take one back to the aesthetic question and what different fans are drawn to in different dancers. For myself, although I had seen Gordeyev on the '73 tour and again on the 79 tour, the male performance I saw that I enjoyed the most with the Bolshoi in 1979 specifically was by Alexander Bogatyrev whom I remember as an elegant and rather poetic dancer.  (Godunov defected before I got to see him in 1979--though I saw him later at ABT.)

Edited June 26 by Drew

[On Pointe]

5 hours ago, Meliss said:

His relatives had the right to insist on an autopsy, but for some reason Medann did not consider it necessary to inform them about this death. But OK, it's really no use discussing it now.

How do you think he died?

[Helene]

6 hours ago, Meliss said:

His relatives had the right to insist on an autopsy,

Actually, his relatives might have had the right to request an autopsy or request authorization for a private autopsy that they would have paid for under California law at the time, since all of the laws are state and local.  That doesn't mean it would have been given, since the police found no signs of foul play -- which, under California law, would have required an autopsy -- and his personal physician, who knew his medical history, signed the death certificate.  If his family had been notified and was wont to ask for one, they would have needed more than a suspicion or not liking whoever his executor was.  As it goes, an autopsy is generally done within 24 hours of death, and he'd already been dead for over a day when his body was found. 

There were dancers that I saw on Bolshoi tours that I thought were better than what I remembered of Godunov.  The Bolshoi Theatre can choose whom they want, and we can question their choice, especially since it's hard to argue about the others on the list.  Those who like Godunov and agree can feel vindicated on his behalf, and it doesn't really matter what anyone else things.

[volcanohunter]

7 hours ago, Drew said:

American fans in my circles and all the U.S. critics I read at the time seemed more drawn to Gordeyev who had a purer classical style than Godunov.

 

7 hours ago, Drew said:

the male performance I saw that I enjoyed the most with the Bolshoi in 1979 specifically was by Alexander Bogatyrev whom I remember as an elegant and rather poetic dancer. 

Yes, looking back at the press coverage, Nadezhda Pavlova and Gordeyev got the most attention and glowing reviews. But I also came with the most positive impressions from Bogatyrev.

Bearing in mind that I was a child at the time (and I’ve relayed this story more than once here, so I apologize for being a broken record), my first exposure to the Bolshoi was with Grigorovich's Romeo and Juliet, starring Bessmertnova as Juliet, Bogatyrev as Romeo, Tsivin as Mercutio and Godunov as Tybalt. I hated the production and years later discovered that most dancers, audiences and critics thought the same. In particular I thought that the death of Tybalt was the most ridiculous thing I had ever seen. But it was inherently absurd. I didn't revisit the production for many, many years, but when I did see it again, it simply reconfirmed my first impressions, and the death of Tybalt looked ludicrous regardless of who danced it.

Edited June 27 by volcanohunter