Whither the femme fatale?

[dirac]

sandik plucked this article from The Independent, which is well worth checking out. I thought I’d make a new topic for it. Any thoughts?

"The femme fatale is an important figure in narrative – we all know women like that, for God's sake," says Rowan Pelling, ex-editor of the Erotic Review and a speaker at one of the festival's discussions. "It is her destiny to be at the centre of a web of intrigue. She doesn't have to be a predator, but sexuality is her tool, and the rise of feminism and political correctness have made that a bit of a no-no. It's seen as not sisterly and is often equated with barminess. That's reflected in the media culture."

I note for the record that feminist thinking on the ‘femme fatale’ character is considerably more nuanced and sophisticated than it’s presented here.

[cubanmiamiboy]

Femme Fatale wouldn't be seen sweating herself with practice clothes at the gym, or strolling around the city with her 5 kids in ragged jeans while sipping coffee. Times has changed, and Gilda doesn't have a reason to exist anymore. I work in a hairdressing salon, and the closest I've seen of women who are empowered by money, dressed in high fashion clothing since early in the morning-(of course she doesn't has to go to work)- and wearing heavy make up are only two types. Young ones who chased rich men and ended up marrying them and hence enjoy the off-limits of opulence and new money and then elderly ones for which this has always been their lifestyle. Maybe there are still some who resemblance the femme fatale within the first category, but usually they are not that sophisticated. This is real life. Movies are a world of their own, but unless you don't place the story back when this women were everywhere, I don't see that many stories that could be credible portraying one of this characters in the America of 2009.

[dirac]

Times has changed, and Gilda doesn't have a reason to exist anymore.

I don't think the type has disappeared entirely, but I see what you mean. I'm not sure that it's such a bad thing, though. Rita Hayworth in the movie spends most of the time taking Glenn Ford's abuse for her slutty ways - it's borderline masochistic. Not much 'empowerment' there. (I like the movie anyway, though.)

I don't see that many stories that could be credible portraying one of this characters in the America of 2009.

Linda Fiorentino made one good FF movie ("The Last Seduction") and a serious turkey ("Jade"). The character played by Greta Schacchi in the film of Scott Turow's "Presumed Innocent" is an interesting variation on the type; this FF is a career woman climbing to the top via sex with men who rank higher on the food chain, and she winds up getting clubbed to death, which most of the other characters in the book seemed to regard as condign punishment.

[cubanmiamiboy]

Linda Fiorentino made one good FF movie ("The Last Seduction") and a serious turkey ("Jade"). The character played by Greta Schacchi in the film of Scott Turow's "Presumed Innocent" is an interesting variation on the type; this FF is a career woman climbing to the top via sex with men who rank higher on the food chain, and she winds up getting clubbed to death, which most of the other characters in the book seemed to regard as condign punishment.

Yum,,,! Gotta see that one!

[dirac]

The movie is actually on the dullish side, although it livens up when it gets to the court scenes. I'd recommend the book, though.

[PeggyR]

The movie is actually on the dullish side, although it livens up when it gets to the court scenes. I'd recommend the book, though.

For me, the saving grace of the film is the sinfully under-appreciated Bonnie Bedelia. Sorry for going , since Bedelia's character isn't an FF, but I've got to get a plug in for one of my favorite actresses.

[dirac]

I like her, too. It's a difficult role, also - another put upon wife, or so she seems. (I'll bet Sissy Spacek, who was the other woman threatening Bedelia's marriage in Violets Are Blue, thanked her lucky stars she didn't confront this Bedelia. )

The supporting cast in Presumed Innocent is good in general, too. I sure miss Raul Julia. I didn't much care for Greta Scacchi, however - would even a temptress like Carolyn wear that much eye shadow around the office?

[sidwich]

I think Mary Harron is on to part of it.

The classic femme fatale does require a degree of fetishization of Woman and sexuality. If you look look at the camera techniques that went into shooting the classic femme fatales there is a high degree of portraiture style camera work, backlighting, etc. creating this extreme glamour goddess feel to the characters. The perception is that the character is not really human but an objectified creature of sexuality which enthralls . At it's most extreme you end up with Laura in which Dana Andrews' detective becomes infatuated with the portrait, and doesn't even meet the actual human character of Laura until halfway through the movie. The tabloidization of the media is part of it, but I do think there is a reluctance to use such heavily stylized filming techniques in contemporary film.

But I think it's difficult to really have a true femme fatale without something approaching true noir, and I don't think that it's a prevalent genre at the moment. In some respects, it's like asking why aren't there true movie song and dance men anymore, and it's because there are so few musicals being made (outside of Disney). Noir really grew out of the disillusionment of the forties and particularly the post-WWII era, with a helping hand from the colony of displaced European filmmakers like Fritz Lang and Billy Wilder. Those films were making a statement about the ugly underbelly of society, of which the femme fatale was one element, the desired woman who becomes deadly.

I think the closest we have come to something like the classic femme fatales have been in neo-noirs like "L.A. Confidential," "Body Heat" and "Brick." For an interesting twist on the femme fatale, Rob Thomas's neo-noir high school in "Veronica Mars" featured a character that some have posited is a homme fatale.

[dirac]

I think the closest we have come to something like the classic femme fatales have been in neo-noirs like "L.A. Confidential," "Body Heat" and "Brick."

Interesting post, sidwich. I tend to think of Body Heat not so much as a noir as a noir manqué (and Kathleen Turner is a noir heroine manqué). I don’t think you can bring back a genre whose time has passed (BH was an effort to do that, and you could see the strain, although I liked the movie), but you can have modern variations on the theme. Sharon Stone in the first “Basic Instinct” is certainly an FF.

I don’t recollect any real femmes fatales in “L.A. Confidential,” (not really in the book, either, that I can recall, but it’s been a long time since I tried Ellroy in print). Kim Basinger is the whore-with-the-heart-of-gold who might look potentially fatale on the outside but isn’t at all, and she shows her hand pretty early. (“Brick” I haven’t seen.)

The type itself in film goes back to Theda Bara, at least; I can’t think offhand of real femme fatale types in the 20s and 30s, both periods in which there were a lot of strong women characters not defined by their sexuality in this way. (Although Louise Brooks in Lulu and Pandora's Box is a kind of femme fatale.) Styles in film aside, social changes in the role of women also plays a part here, as the article sandik linked to (and cubanmiamiboy) point out. The femme fatale does represent a distinctly hostile view of female sexuality (the men in noir are often criminals and killers, but they generally do have a code and stick to it; often as not the woman has no code and betrays without a second thought).

The article also says that Wong Kar Wai is working on a film inspired by The Lady from Shanghai. Should be worth seeing.

[papeetepatrick]

I tend to think of Body Heat not so much as a noir as a noir manqué (and Kathleen Turner is a noir heroine manqué). I don’t think you can bring back a genre whose time has passed (BH was an effort to do that, and you could see the strain, although I liked the movie), but you can have modern variations on the theme.

Agree that you can't bring genres back, but I don't think noir was really over till 'Mulholland Drive', that nailed it. Every time Lynch tries to do more versions of it, they don't have enough elements recognizable specifically to noir, and MD is not even literal, but it's there. I only saw BH once, but thought it worked, primarily because of K. Turner's use of her voice until she was ready for the business. Nothing compared to 'Double Indemnity', to be sure, but that ending living off the swag was pretty good, I thought. Agree also the LA Confidential has no obvious FF, but then I can't stand the film. Stage 'noir' I saw in NY in 2004 wasn't noir at all in my book, so bad the VV published a complaining letter I wrote about 'Splatter Pattern'. Nothing sinister in it, just a lot of noise and pushing sets around.

(Although Louise Brooks in Lulu and Pandora's Box is a kind of femme fatale.)

She's a cult, but I find her always with a touch of waif, never once been convinced by her.

(the men in noir are often criminals and killers, but they generally do have a code and stick to it; often as not the woman has no code and betrays without a second thought).

That's very good IMO. Agree with all of it.

Do you think Marlene in Blue Angel is a femme fatale? I think other posters have more specific understanding of what FF is than I do, but I guess I think of Lola as being one, until further elucidation.

I wonder if one sees them in versions of Farewell My Lovely, whether Claire Trevor or Charlotte Rampling. Maybe there are touches of FF in characters, even if not full-blown, as Rachel Ward seems to start out being in 'Against All Odds', but that dissipates, because the film deepens, means more than a mere pulp, not to mention she's not the type. Deneuve in The Hunger, although the film betrays the superb Strieber novel inexcusably, letting Ms. Sarandon 'seem' to be a FF, which she is not equipped for, and whose character had never been meant to be one.

[dirac]

Do you think Marlene in Blue Angel is a femme fatale?

Sure is.

A note: My previous post referred to 'Lulu' and 'Pandora's Box' when obviously there's just 'Pandora's Box.'

[Petra]

For an interesting twist on the femme fatale, Rob Thomas's neo-noir high school in "Veronica Mars" featured a character that some have posited is a homme fatale.

Sidwich, who are you referring to here?

Amanda Seyfried's character in the first season of Veronica Mars was a juvenile femme fatale - and I thought Seyfried brought it off very well.

In general, the first season of Veronica Mars was excellent, but it proved impossible to carry on the noir feel of the series over multiple seasons and story-arcs. Rumour has it a feature film is in the works.

[sidwich]

Sidwich, who are you referring to here?

Actually, I was referring to the Logan Echolls character. Some have posited that if Veronica is the female version of the noir hero/anti-hero, Logan is the analog of the femme fatale, the damaged/amoral character to whom that character is irresistibly attracted against their better judgment.

I don't think of Lily as the femme fatale of the story. Veronica Mars is unmistakably told from Veronica's point of view and in her voice, and to Veronica, Lily is first and foremost her best friend, champion and confidante. Perhaps if this were Aaron's story, she would be the femme fatale.