papeetepatrick

Since I watched the Czinner movie of Nureyev and Fonteyn last night, and it's not just a videotape of a performance, I can easily say that that is my favourite of all Shakespeare movies. Why, I could watch it a thousand times or more it's so beautiful. I'm glad you brought this up, because I see how little I've seen, so I'd have to say that after the above, I'd choose Olivier's 'Hamlet' and also his 'Henry V' and 'Richard III'. I've otherwise just seen tapes of 'Troilus and Cressida' and Verdi's 'Otello,' which were grainy. Oh yes, love Olivier and Maggie Smith in 'Othello.' That's Leonard Whiting in the Zeffirelli. I just looked him up, and he's done very little since. Didn't care for that movie, though, especially the treacly theme music. Never have seen Branagh's things, but did see that 2000 modernized version of 'Hamlet' mainly because of the actors, Kyle Machlachlan can be very good.

I think 'La Strada' is a masterpiece, don't see anything campy about it. That may be a perception that occurs with various people with many period things. I think a lot of period things are campy that other people take completely seriously, but 'La Strada' is very moving for me. We all know there's no accounting for tastes, and lots of 19th century ballet music is campy, although I like much of Drigo, Delibes, and even Schneitzhoeffer even when they're corny, but hate Minkus and won't bother with 'Giselle,' (this is a profanation in here, I know) because of Adam's music. So much for camp--and Ms. Sontag is not all that illuminating on the topic: She's just as subjective as we all are! Couldn't choose between 'Rules of the Game' and 'Grand Illusion,' you have to see both eventually. I like 'Kiss Me Kate, no matter how imperfect. No reason to go through life without 'Too Darn Hot.' Never saw 'Remains of the Day' nor want to either--something of a relief, because this board's got my schedule in almost all fields crammed going and coming.

Definitely agree that Burton Lane is thoroughly underrated. The score for 'On a Clear Day You Can See Forever' is one of the best of all Broadway scores, and that idiotic movie version left out many of the best songs--'Wait Till We're Sixty-Five, 'On the SS Bernard Cohn,' 'Tosy and Cosh', and I think there's even only a little violin fragment of 'She Wasn't You,' the most beautiful song in the whole show--and Barbara Harris sounds better in all these songs, esp. 'Hurry, It's Lovely Up Here', a perfect gem, than The Greatest Star did. Well, she had big juggernaut going right then and there's the free market, etc., no way they weren't going to go with the big-selling commodity. (If I've got some of the song omissions wrong, correct me, because I'm not going to go through that one again just to get an A.) Have to agree with dirac about 'Royal Wedding' not amounting to much though, and I never have been able to get into Fred dancing around the walls and ceiling. Earlier, sidwich mentioned 'Broadway Melody of 1940' wth Eleanor Powell--this just has some really beautiful dancing in it, and sweet Miss Powell is just a marvel.

That's a good point about Douglas and, although I don't think he was a great leading man, when young it worked pretty well in 'As You Desire Me.' I've sometimes thought Garbo's one flaw in films was the casting of her men, with the exceptions being Robert Taylor in 'Camille', Clark Gable in 'Susan Lennox' (which I think is underrated), and a few others, certainly John Gilbert in 'Queen Christina' and Charles Boyer in 'Conquest.' But all that Lewis Stone, Robert Montgomery, etc. Even so, I see her as able to pull off anything she was in, even 'Two-Faced Woman,' usually considered horrible, with Garbo in what looks more like a Katharine Hepburn part--but I thought she looked beautiful in it even though most don't. I also liked Don Francks in 'FR' and was sorry his musical comedy career went nowhere after 'Kelly,' 'Leonard Bernstein Theater Songs,' and this one good movie role. I can definitely see what the problems with the film are, but often like a film if even only a single fragment comes all the way to life.

But while this may be his most engaging film role, he does no dancing . . . NO DANCING . . . here. He does dance in 'Finian's Rainbow,' just not in the full, detailed way he did when he was younger. Or at least he moves musically through the big 'Look to the Rainbow' opening while everybody else is dancing. If he's not dancing in that number, then I suppose nobody else is either. It's just that dance-wise he does not do the kind of intricate, technical thing he is well-known and celebrated for, so it is not representative, and probably useful only if you have seen all the Rogers and Charisse and some other things. I don't care that much for Lucille Bremer either, but the number is like the 'story-dances' of earlier Berkeley, like 'Lullaby of Broadway,' and therefore charming, and the sets are delightful. Charisse is in the film briefly earlier and it's unfortunate that she didn't do this number with Astaire instead of Bremer. 'Ninotchka' is the only Garbo film I've never cared for, and I've always been mystified why she got herself stuck with Melvyn Douglas so frequently. I thought he began to show his true potential in 'Two-Faced Woman', that being that he is the opposite of a leading man. When you see him later in 'My Forbidden Past,' with Robert Mitchum (a leading man if ever there was one) and Ava Gardner, he has developed this uncharismatic persona still further.

Glad someone put 'Ziegfeld Follies' down, think 'This Heart of Mine' is beautiful. I think 'Silk Stockings' is only important one not mentioned, but I'll watch anything with Cyd Charisse. It's also a wonderful film throughout, and Janis Paige's songs are great. If you have time, 'Finian's Rainbow,' his last, is a beautiful movie with Petula Clark charming as his daughter; best to fast-forward through some of the Tommy Steele kelly-green woodlands/pot 'o' gold stuff, though--but first half-hour is itself pure gold, though this is not the place to see the representative Astaire and maybe not if you've limited time. Fully agree about 'the Band Wagon.' Not a hair out of place in that one.

I should have included this too, only saw it once live, but think big Peter Martins with tiny Kay Mazzo is one of the most fantastic weird-beauty things I know.

LOL! I realize I was cattily obvious or obviously catty or both. It's therefore obvious I shall need to choose from either of two White Cat and Puss 'n' Boots to watch as a nightcap. I so adore that cat face in the RB tape, so I think it will obviously be that one..

Yes, that--and also no one had composed the movements prior to them. They came out of necessity and happened to be beautiful. It's also of interest that, obviously, the question 'is music a sport?' would not occur as it does with ballet. But is ballet closer to arts like music than it is to football and boxing? To me, that's one of the reasons I love ballet, but perhaps it's those musical dancers that can tell us the authentic answer. There's one that I'd almost wager would rather listen to Bach or Palestrina than go to the FSU games (I never once thought of football when I saw her dance), although I can't prove it. I had to go to FSU games as a child, but I got back to the piano and record player soon enough, I guess.

Davidsbundlertanze, Liebeslieder Walzer, La Valse (Balanchine and Ashton), Concerto Barocco, Coppelia, Sleeping Beauty, Swan Lake, Apollo, Emeralds, Chaconne, Romeo and Juliet (or, if they're not all perfect, they're all beautiful enough for me not to worry about their flaws.)

I did not mean this to 'irritate and divide,' which I think is obvious enough from the tone and context of the rest of what I wrote. If anything, it was not terribly well expressed, even though such 'genders' are often used for the Arts by great intellectuals and philosophers, but it may be a matter of context that determines when that sort of talk is considered okay. I was actually referring to something along the lines of Balachine's interest in the 'ideal feminine' or 'ideal woman', and also the fact that the feminine aspect of ballet can specifically interest me when expressed by male or female. I certainly agree that it is also extremely masculine, so that perhaps the word 'essentially' was misplaced. In any case, my obvious point was that some aspects of the feminine specifically expressed or embodied by the male dancers is what I think is one of the most beautiful aspects of what ballet is--although when in the moment of watching the more explicitly masculine expressions, there is also great satisfaction and a sense of the full range of ballet. The sexes have to be enhanced and sometimes even exaggerated in ballet, which is part of what makes it so sensual (but not only sensual, of course.) Another thing I was trying to say was that the perceptions of ballet as 'feminine' or better, by those who wish to decry it, as 'effeminate,' are negative perceptions of the same aspects I find positive. But then I don't find anything negative per se about ballet. I was trying to explain that you cannot overcome hardened-off prejudices against something, that you cannot try to cultivate the respect of those who are very deeply predisposed to oppose ballet. If that was unclear, even given what I think the rest of what I wrote so obviously espoused, I hope now you may understand that I just may have articulated that one part somewhat awkwardly. Ballet is not 'essentially feminine,' but the part of it that is feminine is that part that cannot be gotten respect for by certain people who are predisposed to look at it as a mere extension of what they think of as 'fey' or 'unmanly', especially in the feminine aspects that men also become a part of. My point was really that you can't change the atmosphere and nature of ballet to please an audience which accepts the more obviously entirely different milieux of certain sports--best exemplified by football. If you look at the extremes, you can hardly miss the lines of demarcation. These lines of demarcation protect ballet, and too-vigorous attempts to 'appeal' to some of those audiences is probably not very realistic.

I've no interest in anyone getting beaten, but there's a certain amount of the 'girlie men' configuration that is, in fact, an integral part of ballet, and no pretending it can or should really be any other way. Ballet is essentially feminine, no matter how much butch-macho you get going in it, and no matter how many heterosexual Baryshnikovs and Peter Martinses and Balanchines you have to (slightly) counterbalance the profusion of homosexual men in it (I never have heard much about Lesbians in ballet, but I'm sure it's been researched by some Kinsey sort.) Anybody serious already knows about the 'fitness levels, the physical demands..the toll dancing takes...' Knowing this has no effect whatsoever on bigots--they see rococo flourishes (without calling it 'rococo', of course, rather more often 'sissy') and are not interested in the reasons tights have to be worn; dirty Enquiring minds want to pretend they are incensed by what secretly excites them instead. Actually, it is exciting anyway, but perfectly healthy--I had nothing against Peter Schaufuss doing Franz in 'Coppelia' (with Karen Kain) but obviously I then had to go back to see Pat McBride do it in another production, because she did it better than anybody---and I don't even remember who her Franz was. Didn't Schwarzenegger hugely disseminate the use of the term 'girlie men?' Well, I'm not going to worry to much about what he thinks about anything esthetic. Frankly, I think 'Pumping Iron' was all 'girlie man.' So is 'Terminator.' His father was played by Bill Smith, B-Movie great, and that's where you find the real macho (he had been Falconetti and did 'Run, Angel Run,' etc.), not some studied-pose slab of hubris. There's a payoff in having to deal with hostile reaction from enemies in everything. But I don't think you can take what is meant by the malodorous term 'girlie man' out of ballet and still have ballet. It's not flamenco or Polynesian tamures, etc.

I've been watching that 1984 LA Ballet videotape 'Pas de Deux.' Very grainy-looking but a lot of worthwhile things on it. Michal Denard has something of Patrick Swayze and Gerard Depardieu (before he got so fat), anyway Denard has wonderful big theatrical French face, in same way Jalil Lespert, current film star, does. On same tape, the divine Pat McBride looks very much like Lee Radziwill. Those are delicious looks if there ever were any.

Jane--This is so fascinating. Is the Ashton 'Valses Nobles' ever done, or has his 'La Valse' become the piece to last? Ah well, I know I'd love them all, even the distorted MacMillan one. Now I am going back to see if there is a book on Ashton that I can look at too while I'm up there. I just looked and indeed there is David Vaughan's book, but that they will just haul in for me, and I can read the whole book. I imagine I can find out about much of all of this in there. Can't wait! I think this book will be wonderful.

Jane--thanks so much. It sounds as though it's become very obscure, while the Ashton has continued on. Actually, what interested me in particular is that it's not the same piece Ashton used, and that's what our original discussion was about with the Balanchine I saw Farrell dance in 1986. Balanchine's 'La Valse' uses both: first 'Valses Nobles et Sentimentales' and then the separate whole piece 'La Valse' itself. Ashton uses only 'La Valse.' So apparently MacMillan used only 'Valses Nobles..' if he called the ballet that, and he reversed some of the order. And while we now see from what you said that MacMillan did indeed reverse some of the order of the 'Valses Nobles,' it still hadn't seemed likely to me that Balanchine would have. Now it still seems unlikely, but at least possible that Balanchine did too. I still need to pursue that, in that case, to be 100% accurate. ('La Valse' itself would literally have to be cut up if it weren't left intact, because it has contrasting sections, but is not a suite of pieces, but rather an uninterrupted single piece. Ashton's piece does leave 'La Valse', the composition, all in place.) Thanks for the very useful information, and I'll get back to this once I get a chance to get to Lincoln Center Library and find some further facts. There's surely text somewhere about Balanchine's version, which somehow I hadn't searched out in the library ways yet. Now that you mention that MacMillan danced often in it, it makes me wonder if he was one of the 3 front men in the film on 'Evening at the Royal Ballet.' The colours are a little distorted, with all the men's hair looking somewhat red, unless that had been intentional (never heard of uniformly dyed hair, but it may have happened.) Their faces are a little hard to make out, but there is one you can pick out throughout the ballet--the one who partners the girl in orange, but I don't if that's MacMillan, or if either of the others is.

I found that there is a Thorpe book at Reference Library, so I guess I'll look there. Is this the authoritative book on MacMillan's work

I first came here a few weeks back asking about Balanchine's use of both 'Valses Nobles et Sentimentales' and 'La Valse' for his own 'La Valse,' but I was already very familiar with the Ashton version from the filmed version on Evening at RB. Now just read in Wikipedia that MacMillan did 'Valses Nobles..' in 1966, they say 'masterpiece' at Wikipedia with the rest, but I'm interested in hearing about this from people who actually know for sure. Is this still performed? Is it on VHS or DVD? I doubt that it was ever combined with the 1958 Ashton, but this was still interesting to find out, and I wonder if others have used these two Ravel works. I do wish I could go to Washington to see RB soon, but not possible this time. And what's it like? (if that makes any sense to ask). Thanks.

I definitely had the impression Nureyev was living quite fully on and off the stage--unless a bit 'too fully' is a form of not living fully. Susanne--it may be legitimate to feel that way about what should be publicized or not, but naive to think that there will be any change. Actually, I don't agree that, if the facts are true, it's the same thing as if they were not. (There was a piece along these lines in the late 70's by Croce that said this exact same thing, the quote was close to this: 'It doesn't matter if the gossip is true or not, but that it is just gossip.' ) I think you do find out a great deal about an artist's art by knowing about the personal life, but that doesn't mean I want to always know about it. You can even find out about the work by the way an autobiography (especially) is written. Now, Tab Hunter is not considered one of the great screen artists, but he describes both personal and professional matters with extraordinary attention to detail--things like dates and places, which I really dig. Books by Lawrence Olivier and Jean-Louis Barrault are about great artists (themselves) and they tell some personal things too (at least Olivier's does. I doubt Barrault was much involved with anything that wasn't mostly pristine, but that's probably wishful.) Ann-Margret may be no Sarah Bernhardt, but her autobiography didn't even describe her best movies, some of which are incredibly good like 'Joseph Andrews'. It's as though she'd forgotten her achievements. I don't think she even mentions 'The Outside Man' with Trintignant. Tab Hunter made not a single picture as good as either of these, and yet every single one is incredibly well-documented, and even made interesting thereby (including his brief tryst with Nureyev; perhaps some didn't want to know about that, but Hunter doesn't seem to mind, and I sincerely doubt he was 'betraying Rudy' in any serious sense.) So there are lots of issues about biographies and autobiographies, but it isn't realistic to expect that people are going to en masse stop reading gossippy things in order to protect a single person's privacy, living or dead. Of course, this is a part of the massive vulgarity that has become all-pervasive, but it's just a fact.

I'd be interested if you've got some links to these, as I would have assumed that football (and obviously boxing) would have the most irreparably serious injuries, because of the brain damage that I think must surely be less common in ballet, basketball and baseball.

I think 'Picnic' would be a good American ballet. The central dance is already there and easy to see it move into ballet. And the Duning music is ever-rapturous, and could be arranged into a suite very nicely. I'd love to see Ms. Ringer and Mr. Woetzel Madge and Hal, but they've already proved they can transcend noisome costumes--that same Jean Louis pink dress needs to be suggested, I'd hope, so they wouldn't need to work so hard to save something. Just moving it into ballet is modernization enough. I just wouldn't want to see Madge in another one of those metallic reds. It should definitely make you think of Novak and Holden as well as the characters they played.

Brian Shaw looks like Bruce Willis, but I like the Bluebird better.

Juliet--thanks. The Anderson article is a really good start--I can't believe I didn't know about Perreault writing all those stories we all know. D'Aulnoy fascinating with the Bluebird and White Cat stories, though. I love it about Troutine (or Truitonne)--so witty-malicious. Whole milieux are opened up when you think of these ladies like Mme. D'Aulnoy. These will be the first ones I'll go and look for full versions of. This one looks promising and has stories both by Mme. D'Aulnoy and Perreault. WONDER TALES New York : Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 1996, c1994. edited and introduced by Marina Warner ; with illustrations by Sophie Herxheimer.

Patricia McBride has something of Delphine Seyrig about her, not quite as intense perhaps.

I agree with Paul and Helene about young Fonteyn resembling young Elizabeth, especially comes out in that old film of 'Le Corsaire,' maybe because all that perfected hokiness (and a little naughty maybe) has obviously often been favoured by the Queen, e.g., that PBS thing, 'Windsor Castle' about the 'Detente' with France, in which it is not at all clear that 'Les Miserables' was the only diplomatic thing she had to settle on as entertainment for such an event (her 'inspection' of the stage is hilarious.) By 'Marguerite and Armand' Fonteyn no longer resembles the Queen at all, to my eye. I've sometimes thought Farrell resembled the adult Bibi Andersen around the time of 'I Never Promised You a Rose Garden.' But she mostly makes me think of Tintoretto and Parmigianino figures.

Karin Von Aroldingen looks much like young Garbo in 'Emeralds' tape, but even more so in 'Davidsbundlertanze.' Maybe younger Peter Martins resembled Max Von Sydow, as in 'The Virgin Spring,' but not really exactly, more a physical attitude.