Nanarina

There was a Fonteyn/Nureyev/Mason(or Parkinson) version released on Video, but I am not sure if it ever appeared on DVD. Also The Australian Ballet released a performance on DVD (2000) with Christine Walsh and Kelvin Coe, New production by Maina Gielgud after Petipa, Coralli and Perrot. Costumes by Peter Farmer/ Quantum Leap/Australian Broadcasting Company. I think this may still be available try Amazon or Ebay.

There are those of us on the western side of the pond who agree.I sometimes wonder whether faces that were obviously "done" have become so much the norm in the entertainment industry that their weirdness (at least IMO) is no longer apparent to the members of that community. Oh where , oh where, have all the dishy UK Actors (and Actresses )gone?? No where they are all still here.

Do you mean Graduation Ball, choreography by David Lichene for Ballet Russes, music Johan Strauss, costumes by Benois, revived by The London Festival Ballet in the 1950/60's?? (now the English National Ballet.I do not know if it is still in their repertoire. It was very charming and amusing, about a girls academy visited by the young men from a military academy, and featured a naughty girl, comic master and mistress and the Drummer Boy , and Sylp[hide and the Scotsman diversissements.

Thank you Carbro for the write up and photographs of La Danse, it sums it up pIt perfectly. Will you be able to go and see it? I am sure you would enjoy it.The time of performance is 2h 54m.

Thank you very much Silvermash, I am surprised I did not reconise M. Gsnio snd M Heymann, as I have seen the later in person dancing Onegin, then afterwards at the stage door. So Jeremie was the other person, . I think he is lovely "it's those muscles you know!!!!I

You have not proven it, Nanarina, but it is clear how you feel about it. Fact is, picking out Hitler is not the best example, because even though 'state of the world' (at least at that time) was subject to destruction by his ideas, his artistic product was pretty wimpish. What you are trying to prove is that 'normal human beings' should be geniuses, and sometimes they are, and very many times they are not. Yes, even sadists can be artistic geniuses. I am sorry you find it difficult to accept this fact, but, for what it's worth, De Frutos does not come across as that particular anomaly. There are mad geniuses of all kinds, what is such news about that? And Simon is right about how valid it is to see something and think it's just 'silly' or 'upsetting', as he and Mashinka did, respectively. I think I would have found it silly too, and not the least bit upsetting. I don't like the idea of a pregnant woman being punched in real life at all, and don't especailly want to see it onstage; but it it's part of an artistic project, it should be left in if necessary. And how do you know it won't be valid? We were recently talking about Polancki. Quite apart from the current brouhaha, his then-pregnant wife Sharon Tate was repeatedly stabbed in 1969. That is WORSE than you or me having to see this onstage, even though seeing it onstage could, of course, still be gratuitous and even stupid. I wouldn't really mind seeing the de Frutos all that much, if I'd had a chance to see some of the works Simon listed, I would definitely have wanted to see it if I was become a fan, just to know all of his work. The point is some people are more delicate in their sensibilities than others. Not a single one of these images would have bothered me ONE BIT in the literal sense. I see worse on the streets of New York nearly every day. But it's not a 'threat to society', these explicit sex 'n' violence things, it's that some people just can't watch it. I don't like to watch violence in movies either, although I've changed my mind about wanting to see 'Antichrist', and some of my reasons are NOT GOOD! What I'm just saying is, you can try to stop all these things as you wish, but they are not going to--they are literally a part of the verious 'liberations' that started to be articulated in the 60s, and most of us are not interested in seeing the clock turned back. You cannot say you believe in 'freedom of thought' and then make the decision who gets this freedom of thought. And artists throughout history have gone to jail when they were determined that there work was going to be read, heard, seen, etc., and they were not going to be stifled by people whose fragile sensibilities should just have stayed home or made sure the kids went to church or what have you. What you keep doing is saying 'I believe in freedom of thought', and then immediately limiting it. And, you know, Van Gogh was mad, and Gauguin had syphilis. I think Schumann did too. There are Nazi composers, there are countless great artists even UNDER Hitler, it's just he was not one himself with his little wimpy landscapes. There were Emil Jannings, Leni Riefenstahl, Elisabeth Scharzkopf, Richard Strauss, and Arletty misbehaved with a German--she was also the great actress of 'Les Enfants du Paradis', and yes, she had to go to jail, but that's the breaks. It's just not as simple as you seem to want to make it, nor is it going to change from being complex either. Papettepatruck. I do not think you have got it at all, perhaps it is my fault in how I have excplained myself. You are making far more of my post than I ever intended. I repeat Freedom of Thoughts and speech can in some circumstances create violence. You only have to look around you to witness that. I am not suggesting it should not exist only re-iterating my point.

Nanarina, This actually proves the case against censorship. Especially in light of my misnomer - for Mashinka it was repellent, for me it was silly and that's the crux of the problem who's to say which is right? Does Mashinka have a more discerning sense of morality/sensibility or is she over-reacting, am I superficial, perverse, emotionally immature? What is the moral benchmark and does this mean that Mashinka and I could never be equally irritated, repelled, shocked, delighted? I don't think so, we both love Javier De Frutos when he's on form. Our unique sensibilities, our ability to decide for ourselves what constitutes our moral "boiling point" is our right as human beings and short of illegal acts of depravity is our absolute right. This is why calling for offical censorship whereby an appointed body are deemed able to lay down ethical guidelines of morality by which the whole population must adhere to or face prosecution is extremely dangerous. It denies us our basic human right of expression; I would rather a thousand bad performances and no masterpieces, if the caveat for great art is that nothing deemed "unfitting" may ever be presented. The problem is you didn't see the De Frutos, which is fine you don't like the sound of it and there's no reason why you should, especially as you feel it would have upset and repelled you. Fine, but by that same token you have no right to demand that it not be presented, Mashinka hated the piece but I'm sure she wouldn't demand it shouldn't have been put on. We all have the power and right to leave. Excuse me Simon,Get off your high horse, I never said or even thought the De Frutos, should not be presented, yet again you have not read what was said.. Neither have I compared your nature to Mashinka's I do not know you, so that is the last thing I would do To be honest and no reflection on your opinion, but I prefer to accept her view, as I could relate to what she said.. Why are you so concerned about differences in how people re-act. You are who you are, And I am not concerned. I was brought up that if you do not agree beg to differ, and move on, We all have our own opinions, and I refuse to be bullied into changing mine. you are entitled to your own, and I have not questioned them. As far as I am concerned you are still the free person you were before this thread started, The Board of Censors in the Film Industry has been around for years, and has protected people rather than denying them access to the media, whether you agree or not it is there. So do you think you have the right to abolish it? I do not think you have fully understood what I mean, I am not suggesting an official goes along to a theatre or Ballet and says "Cut this or Cut that". What would make me feel more comfortable about what I was about see (New Works rather than ones I know ) Is more detalied information prior to the performance.. It is too late afterwards.Perhaps I should tell you I am partially sighted and cannot see to read a programme, and it is now very difficult for me to see even from the front row. But I still know what us going on, using special binoculars. I am not against free expression and idea's, but will continue to critisise if I see fit. I have designed and written ballets myself, so creativity is very inportant to me.

Of course I agree. I also see no reason to think most of them don't. Protest can be kneejerk, but acceptance can be passive. Thoughtful engagement, of course, is the ideal. Kfw{ The voice of reason as ever.

One aspect of this discussion that I enjoy is the effort everyone is making to engage thoughtfully. When the thread began I had my own kneejerk reactions to the story (or the portion of it I knew at the time). Reading these posts, and learning more about de Frutos, has made me appreciate anew just how complex these matters are. I thank you all for that. Art, it seems to me, requires thoughtful engagement of the highest kind. So does being a fully aware, fully alive member of the audience. Yes Bart, what is the point in going, if you are not seeing, learning, enjoying appreciating. remembering and telling others about it later. Enjoy your Ballet.

I don't impute to artists any kind of moral superiority. I just think it's the better part of wisdom for the folks readying the protestations and the tar and feathers to think a bit. My two cents. I think most of us can agree on that. Before I complete this post I wish to state I am fully in support of the freedom of thoughts and idea's However throughout time this has been both beneficial and deteremental to the Human Race. Used in a good way by a normal balanced person it is harmless, if it does not represent a danger of any kind to the population. However on the other hand what if the person is a sadistic evil,Mad? tyrant, such as Hitler, or some of the people already mentioned earlier in this thread. One could say they had freedom of speech,thoughts and ideas. But used them in the worse possible way against mankind..In fact it is not just confined to history, it is going on in our world today. When freedoms are expected and received the law should punish those who use them to persicute their fellow man. I am of course talking about the state of our world. Not about De Frutos's ballet which is inaignificant in comparison. Though I now feel I have without doubt proven that these freedoms in some situations can promote violence.

Nanarina, Funnily enough that statement is pretty much the credo of the modern dancer pioneers and the effect which caused Duncan, Graham, Wigman, Holm, Cunningham and on.... And actually we could also see that being the reason for Fokine, Nijinska, Balanchine etc revolting againt the classicism of Petipa. It was certainly MacMillan's reason for creating The Invitation and The Burrow. I do agree with you strongly nanarina about the need to protect kids from the deluge available on the internet and I'm sure you're not a prude, I suppose the thing is one has to operate one's right and ability to walk out or not go to something. Ultimately censoring what can be seen is actually censoring thought and ideas. There are many artists I have a really hard time with especially conceptual artists such as Marina Abramovic, I just find her art repellent - ditto this Italian guy in London called Franko B, whose exhibition actually made me throw up, I shan't go into details. But again even though I hate the art or content I defend utterly their right to do what they want. I agree with Mashinka, the De Frutos was rather silly, it didn't offend me, I thought it was too childish, but at the same time it fit the evening for me as the whole thing was rather ill advised. Patrick, I don't know if De Frutos will come to the US. He needs a large company with a fairly large budget to perform his works, whether or not anyone will put up the dosh in the US remains to be seen. Simon I would like to respond to your comments, firstly referring to Sir Kenneth MacMillan's The Burrow and The Invitation. However as I was not involved with The Royal Ballet during The Burrow, I do not have the knowledge to do so. However I was there for The Invitation, which you no doubt are aware was very progressive for the time. As an "insider" I witnessed the response it received, at first there were many eye brows raised, some critics belied it, whilst others praised it. During first performaces as it ended there was a marked hush in the audiorium. and then the appluase would start slowly and build. As there was a quick change near the end for the rape scene, I was at the side of the stage. Although they had been forwarned by the dance of the acrobats (who appeared and behaved as mating chickens). The audience still seemed to be somewhat stinned. Later when I worked for the Touring Company, we performed it in the provinces, and by then a notice stating it was for adults only and not suitable for children had to be displayed at the front of the theatre we were visiting. After this at least while I was still working with the company, Sir Kenneth's work became less contriversal. He certainly had been given a hard time during this period. Although people outside the company may not have been aware of it. manon was premiered which I was also priveledged to be connected with. His older productions such as Solitare and Danses Concertantes also remained in the repertoire., as well as a new Romeo and Juliet. Before moving on I must mention sir Frederick Ashton (affectionatly known as Sir Fred) and his many lovely Ballets, Fille Mal Gardee, Les Deux Pigeons, Ondine, Sylvia, A Day in the Country, Cinderella, The Dream,Margurette & Armond to name just some of his work. What a wonderful contribution the two "Sirs" made to British Ballet. Now changing the subject I want to bring up something I think you may have not appreciated, you mention Mashinka thinking the De Frutos was "rather silly". I think you need to read her post again, what she actually commernted is" What I saw was deeply, deeply unpleasant" . Which is far more serious than just being called "rather silly. "From reading what has been posted, I feel the Choreographer needs to address his anger, frustration or whatever was behind his creation. If this is truly not up to his usual standards, and disapointed his follower's, It is in his hands to move on forward to restore his reputationh.

HI Bella12 and Silvermash, Were you at the Question and answer session? Because it was asked if the Dancers names could be mentioned, but you rightly say Fred Wiseman did not seem to want to do this. I think it is a shame, as I am partially sighted I could not always see .Even on the big screen it would have helped me to see who they were. At one stage I wondered if the stockier guy in Genus was Jeremie Belingard as there are photographs of him in it. It may seem strange but I often have to relie on their physique or style of dancing, if I cannot hear a voice. In Jeremie's case it looked like his lower legs.I have to use special binoculars in a theatre and sometumes manage to see faces. Thank you the name of the other ballet. And spelling correction The E is near the S on the keyboard and I do hit the wrong keys at times. Though I must have missed it when I checked. I think you are right about F.W.s motives, although he did not actually confirm this, He thought names would take up too much space as he woulld have to mention more than just one or two people when there were a number prescent.

Mashinka, when I read your first post, it was the sense of violence that struck me most about what you saw at the performance. I confess to sharing your feelings about the cavalier acceptance of graphic violence by the majority of pop culture audiences. Emotionally, behaviorally, and even ethically I think an entire generation is being re-sensitized -- or DE-sensitized -- in this matter. Whatever the sources of de Frutos's anger -- and regardless of whether it is justified -- his particular form of gratuitous violence action seems poor way to express his feelings. At worst, it degrades the audience. At best it shows a paucity of imagination. I was intrigued by your statement: "In general dance rarely expresses violence ..." The fight scenes in Romeo and Juliet, even the death of Giselle and Albrecht, are violent, but highly stylized, and completely integrated into the story. Of the ballets I can recall at this moment, Spartacus seems most brutal, but even here everything is consistent with the setting (slavery and war) and character (all the men are professional killers in one form or other), and with the movement style of the work as a whole. Another point: The Spartacus story expresses a postitive value system greater than the world's brutality. Human love, the fight for social justice, the importance of humanity and human dignity: this is what you are meant to remember and hold in your heart when the curtain falls. Even Crassus has his coherence and his dignity. Such elements seriously undermine the violent episodes by offering the audience a MORE powerful and hopeful way life in a brutal world. De Frutos's piece, if I understand it correctly, makes no attempt to offer an alternative way of addressing the evils which he sees. Nor does it seem to wish to allow the audience the chance to transcend the choreographer's own, personal anger. The use of fights in Ballet are usually very spectacular, choreographed to fit in with the storyline, it may be considered vioilence by some, but not me., It is not usually offensive'but is part of the plot, and can be very exciting depending on the production. In Roland Petit's Clavigo there is a fantastic fight in the Part 1, which is set to a brilliant musical score.by Gabriel Yared. it is so well constructed it sends shivers down your spine (or at least mine) the combination of music and movememnt is quite spectacular. But it does not overstep the mark at all, everthing is controlled and the resilt is very effective. It is danced on the DVD by Nicholas Le Riche and Yann Bridard of the Paris Opera Ballet. I also really like Sparticus, I have seen it live and on DVD, the Slaves dances are paricularly exciting, I also love the dance of the Roman legion and their women, again the rhyrum and the music build up to an exciting climax, after which follows the Pas de deux, full of spectacular lifts, between the leader and his mistress, also the wonderful slave Pas de deux to the well known lovely music. It is one of those tunes that stays on your mind. No there is nothung in classical Ballet's that I know offends me I could watch it time and time again. And I have to admit I do!!

They can, certainly. The risk is that they may wind up looking intolerant, foolish, and on the wrong side of history. You place your bet and take your chance. Thanks, Mashinka. I can't pass any sort of judgment without having seen the piece myself, but it is certainly fair to ask the question about work you find deeply disturbing. Mashinka- you had every right to post this post, and your question was very valid, as for your being reactionary or prudish to object to watching something which was a seriuosly obsene unpleasant episode, to be made to feel in the wrong, is not acdceptable. We are forced to listen to others, but we can make up our own minds, to disagree. Ignore others opinion, if you feel so inclined, as they do ours, and you should stick with your original feelings without listening to them. I would have most definatly felt the same, and been sickened by such a violent action to an unborn child. . Thank you for telling us about this work, I certainly would have been upset if I went to see it, not because I am a prude, or do not value freedom of expression, but I do not like excessive violence. But it would not have been my scene at all, I much prefer a classical ballet either traditional or productions like Manon, Mayerling, Les dame aux Comellias though in contrast I also like some which are a little more risque, like the modern Sylvia, Clavigo, Proust. (I am now waiting for the comments regarding me calling them "Risque"!!!! Then there is Etudes, Scene en Blanc etc.Thank you once again for giving us your responses. From what you said It would appear the prior warnings were not very efficient.

Well, yeah, this thread has amply protected you from the new Frutos piece. As for 'omitting horrific ballets', I'm afraid I have to take a break without further ado. I have heard that 'PAMTGG' is horrific, but I didn't see that either. I KNOW that I thought Robbins's 'Glass Pieces' was 'horrific', but not because it didn't have any sex in it. I have changed my post to read OBSCENE, which decribes the point I was trying to make much better. Sadly I am unable to check a dictionary or thesaurus. when I cannot think of the right word to use. as I am partially sighted and cannot see them .By the way I am not against free artistic expression I use it every day in my own work.

That pretty much illustrates my philosophy. Let people know what they're in for, and don't let the PC crowd scare you away from "moral judgment." What would they say about a snuff film? Thank you KFW. My sentiments exactly "Let people know what they are in for".

The problem of putting something like this on the box is that the impact diminishes when viewed next to the horrors shown on the news on a daily basis, but whatever the intentions behind its creation, for most people this work will leave a bad taste. Hopefully the viwers will comsider making a complaint if they so wish.

: Thank you for that mental image, Simon. It would take quite a few rolls.

I went to see this on Friday16th at the first viewing and enjoyed it very much. 2hrs 54 minutes of insight into this wonderful company. From the dancers to the cleaners were featured. Intermixed with views of the theatre from inside and outside From the lake in the basement complete with fish to the bee hive on the roof from where honey was collected Fred Wiseman took you from rehearsals of a number of ballet, With the Etoile's down through the ranks to the Corp de Ballet. Gradually building up a picture of the near completion of the productions. Most of these consisted of dress rehearsals, as no camera's were allowed in the auditorium, sppsrt from one which was positioned in the orchestra pit. This meant the scenes were filmed from the wings to one side of the stage. Which worked very well in the circumstances. The Ballets featured were both modern and classical showing the variety of the POB repertoire, and included Songe de Medea, Nutcracker, Paquita and a very small snippet of Sasha Waltza's Romeo and Juliette. Sadly Fred Wiseman only arrived in Paris as this was finishing it's run, and was unable to feature very much in the film appart from a little of the Pas de deux (Berlioz's lovely Love scene music) The contempory works in addition to Medea which was rather extensively used were Genue and another which I am not sure of it' title, it involved women in long black dresses and an oblong table. A lot of thumping and shouting by a male lead and the women. You may reconise it, but sorry I did not. The different threads were all held together by the lovely waltz music from the ballroom scene in Paquita and other Ballets, It gave a brilliant picture of the workings inside the organisation, the rewards given to the Ballets benefactors. meetings and discussions about such things as retirement, pensions the Dancers welfare and treatment by the management. I am not going to go into more detail, as I would not wish to spoil it for you if yoiu plan to see it. All I will say is I thought it was really excellant, and would recommend it. After the performance we had the chance to meet and speak with Frerderick Wiseman.and enjoyed a question and answer session. He kindly provided the details I have included in this post, and told us he had taken 130 hours of film, which was reduced to the final 2h 54m. He is an avid lover of Ballet and said he would have moved in, to the Opera if he could".A few members of the audience made suggestions to him regarding the film he quite happily accepted. I think if there had not been a later film show, some of them would have liked to spend more time chatting with him. It nicely rounded off the visit.

I am not suggesting auppression of idea's, Creativety is a major part of my life. However, what you say about Kids today, I totally agree with, and kind of proves my point!!!

Censorship does not 'provide information', it censors things--which means prohibits certain ones, at least on the planet I live on. 'Watch if you want or decline' is what most of the rest of us are saying--a review can tell you that, or you can talk to people and find out. Censorship is something else. Some of dearest friends, including both of my sisters, would have totally freaked out if they'd seen this, but that's their problem, I tell them about these things so they can keep on with their sense of 'Southern-belle spotless women' that they are so into. I don't know why anybody would choose such a narrow view, but that is their business. Forget it for me, though, for example, and they think that is just fine that way. Why are you so against people being protected from seeing something that is possibly obscene, when it can be omitted? there are degrees of all things. So why cannot they be moderated in advance? I do not have a narrow view on life, I have seen many charges over the years, some for the better and some for the worse. In fact I am quite open minded. I was not suggesting Censorship was providing information, what I meant was it is good to know that I at least am pleased to feel protected in what I am expected to witness either on the stage or off.

Mashinka If you had known what this production contained would you have still gone to see it? And was there any warning of it's content beforehand. If it had been looked at by Ther Board of Censors, you may have been spared the experience and a spoilt evenings entertainment. I think that cenorship is valid, it provides information in the sense of Codes and suitability, which allow people to make their own choices. Watch if you want or decline.

Well, he's forthright about his motivation, anyway. If I believed in censorship this piece as described would be a tempting target, but. I do understand how you feel, Nanarina (referring to Nanarina's earlier post, which I'm not quoting). It's certainly not what I come to a dance performance for. Thank you Dirac I cannot help wondering what the world is coming to, have we totally lost every sense of decency, morality when we allow such diverse actions without a second thought . No wonder the moral decoline of humanity is as it is. If I am being old fashioned, so be it, I am not being small minded, if people want to witness a freedom of choice, it should be done in their own homes, not pushed down the throats of everyone. The kind of things that seem to be considered appropriate in this thread, are very risky, what happens if the children you are so keen to protect stumble against something unsavory by accident. The damage is therefore done. Just as a matter of interest, these "snuff movies " or recordings do exist even in the UK, Take the case of "The Fred and Rose West Murderers", The Moors Killers, and there has been another arrest, but I cannot remember the perpetraitors name. I will say no more.

How is it that Ballet and choreography seems to escape the censor. In other fields such as films, TV or even books, the genre is accompanied by a clearly defined code stating content, violence level and recommended age of viewer. Although I have not seen this piece, after what I have read, I would not want to. It seems to neglect the deflines of moral and ethical decency. There should be a limit to the lengths to which a choreographer stoops in prodicing what is techanaly classed as an Art. Personally I think it sounds as if it is sick and degrading. What is more it also could be seem to promote violence. Something all told not appreciated by me myself in my interest in Ballet. I realise there are other Ballets that contain elements of sex. drugs, murder and violence, but which are portrayed in an acceptable manner. I am not old fashioned or blinkered, but I would like to see "Limits" established for this kind of production.even if it restricts the creaters artistic freedom. After all do we not all enjoy our interest for the pleasure it gives us?

I am looking forwrd to seeing the film on the big screen. But will buy the DVD when it is released, as you rightly say there will hopefully be a lot to concentrate on and I will be able to watch it at home. My daughter got me a wide screen TV with surround sound, which is super for Ballet DVD's. It is a flat screen nearly 4ft wide.