Tom47

Natalia, I thank you for your interesting topic dealing with the cost of tutus as it inspired me to start this general topic dealing with dancewear. I wanted to ask the responders to your topic a number of questions dealing with dancewear, but I didn't want to move it off your first post. To all, this topic is about dancewear in every way. I encourage anyone to comment on whatever you feel is interesting in regard to both female and male attire. Some suggestions would be general aesthetics, personal experiences, design and materials, colors and the history and development of dancewear, as well as cross overs between dancewear and street fashions, but other comments would also be welcome. I feel there are, at least, three reasons for people, including dancers, to wear clothes - for protection and support; for visual effects (decoration, showing of status, gender, situation and historical context) and for modesty. Tom,

ATM711, thank you for your contribution to this topic, I have a copy of Rudolf Nureyev and Margot Fonteyn in "Swan Lake." Next time I watch it I will pay particular attention to Nureyev's lyrical dancing. Angelica, I also thank you for your contribution. I looked up both Cory Stearns and Roberto Bolle. Tom,

I find the short ballet "Le Spectre de la Rose" to be interesting. While it highlights the male dancer, in a way that I see as being beautiful, it is in reality all about the young woman as the Spectre is not a separate entity, but is her feelings - her happiness and joy over the rose, but even more so her pleasurable remembrance of the dance she just returned from. Tom,

Natalia, I'm glad that you started this topic as I found its discussion of tutus very interesting and informative. Thank you. Tom,

Natalia, I don't know anything about the costs of tutus. It does seem to me that the "cocktail dresses" are similar in shape to the "bell tutu," which I believe was introduced in the second half of the 19th century, although the material may be different. I don't know that much about zippers, boned bodices and wired skirts to say much about that, but I would like to read about that. My guess and it is only a guess is that this is mainly a desire for some aesthetic variety. That is to somewhat differentiate one production from another. This is just my opinion and I can certainly be incorrect about it, so I would like to read more as to what you think and what others think. Tom,

In starting this topic I mentioned the short ballet "Le Spectre de la Rose" as an example of what I see as male beauty. Here are three others: The Bluebird pas de deux from The Sleeping Beauty; The pas de trios from the second act of Le Corsaire and the final wedding pas de deux from Don Quixote. Over the years as I have become more and more interested in Male Beauty, I have also become more and more interested in the lives of women, both in fiction and historical works. This is true in regard to my reading and the movies I see. My increased interest in Male Beauty has not been associated with any decrease in my interest in Female Beauty, but I have found myself to be less and less interested in the lives of men. In a way my interest in Female Beauty has expanded beyond what many may see as the typical Female Beauty. Tom,

Imspear - thank you for the information. I have never heard of that piece before and found a silent video of Anna Pavlova dancing "California Poppy" and one with Amanda McKerrow dancing the same piece, but with music - very nice. In the process of finding these videos I also found one of Amanda McKerrow dancing "Dragonfly." Tom,

I have a copy of The Royal Ballet School's production of Prokofiev's "Peter and the Wolf." In this production some human roles are danced - Peter, Grandfather and the Hunters and some animal roles are danced - Bird, Duck, Cat and Wolf. What particularly interests me in regard to the topic of this thread is that there are also non-human and non-animal dance roles - Meadow, Pond, Forest and Wall. This I feel takes the idea of "Kinetic Impressions" in a different direction in regard to the impressions of these elements. The closest I can think of is the Dance of the Snow Flakes and perhaps the Dance of the Flowers both from "The Nutcracker." Can anyone think of other non-human and non-animal roles? Along with human I am including such "human-like" roles such as Fairies, Shades and Sylphides. Tom,

Volcanohunter, I looked into the life of Sonia Gaskell and her live was very dramatic, being Jewish and living and working in Nazi occupied Netherlands. I also learned that Audrey Hepburn studied ballet under her. As I'm interested in the beginning of things I would like to read about the "early, shoe-strings days" of ballet companies. Amy, thank you for your suggestions also. I have become more and more interested in the lives of women. Your suggests are all women who I have not heard of before so that will be interesting. Tom,

Thank you volcanohunter. As I understand it the women you mentioned would have been in charge of the total ballet so would have dealt with both male and female dancers. Is that correct? Also who would you consider to have lived the most interesting life? I am sorry to bother you so much and appreciate you responses. These questions may sound strange to you, but I am trying to come up with an idea for a story, not that I would write it. Tom,

As some may have guessed I am interested in the idea of switched gender roles. Does anyone know of good examples in ballet or dance where women choreographers or directors were in change of and taught beautiful young male dancers? Would Martha Graham be an example? Tom,

Volcanohunter, you wrote that "these women often acted as chief choreographers as well as directors." Could you or anyone else give me names of such female choreographer and directors, particularly if they did much of their work with male dancers? Would Martha Graham be an example? I am interested in the idea of switched gender roles with the female choreographer and directors being in charge and the male dancers, particularly young dancers providing the visual beauty. Tom,

Volcanohunter, thank you very much for this information, particularly the surveys by the National Endowment for the Arts. Also, the explanations about the dancers and the ballet companies established in the 20th century. Tom,

1. It is my impression that more women and girls are interested in ballet than men or boys, but I realize that may be my stereotyping. Are more women and girls interested in ballet than men or boys? 2. It is my impression that there are more female ballet dancers than male ballet dancers and maybe more female dancers in general than male dancers. Is that correct? 3. It is my impression that men dominate in regard to choreographers, instructors, producers of shows in ballet as compared to women. Is that correct? Tom,

I am in part a product of the time and place where I have lived. In that I mean my likes and dislikes have been influenced by the experiences of my life in particular in regard to norms and values, likes and dislikes. I know that my likes and dislikes are basically subconscious in that I don't consciously decide to like something or dislike it. However, I feel that my conscious thoughts and my actions could alter my subconscious likes and dislikes, although that takes time and "practice." I have some difficulty with the idea of male beauty, not so much because of the way I was born, but more because of what I have explicitly or implicitly learned by observing people, by reading and by what I heard. As a result many times when I feel a man is beautiful there seems to be something that tells me that is wrong and that this something that tells me that is wrong diminishes my experience of beauty. What is odd to me is that I am more likely to perceive the male body to be beautiful as opposed to the male face. Maybe the face is too personal. Also, I am more picky in regard to seeing males as beautiful as compared to females. Tom

The connection between Ballet and "Silent Films:" I have included both Ballet and films without spoken dialog ("silent films") under a general category I call "Kinetic Impressions." Now, there are many differences between those two art forms, for example "silent films" are not dance in that the movements are not synchronized with music. However, I feel there is an important similarity and that is in both ballet and "silent films" words are not very important. In both "silent films" and almost all ballet spoken words are not used, although in "silent films" there usually are intertitles that are the short sections of film in which words are displayed either to show dialog or to explain what is happening. Because of this both art forms make great use of facial and bodily expression to communicate what is happening and what a character is feeling. This also adds an unreal mood to these art forms, but that is one of the things I like about them. In a sense I feel these oftentimes exaggerated expressions allow me to read the minds of the characters in the performance. Tom,

Angelica, I can understand why you don't think of ballet as an "Athletic Art" and I wouldn't be surprised if there are others who feel the way you do. It is like the discussion as to whether Ballet is an Art or a Sport. While there are certainly differences between dance, gymnastics, synchronized swimming, acrobatics and figure skating, I also feel there is a similarity (I think of them all as forms of dance) and to me that similarity is the display of the artist's physical capabilities, so I tried to find a term that would convey that. Perhaps the one I picked is not the best one and I am opened to suggestions. I agree with your description of ballet as ". . . an art that uses classical ballet placement and steps to convey something beyond the kinetic action itself," but feel that the kinetic action is important in a way that is not present in some other forms of art, so I use the term "Athletic" to modify the word "Art." As to what I mean by "not Athletic Arts" I wasn't sure how much I would get into that because this is a ballet site. Most if not all of what I consider to be in that category are films, although I would not exclude live action. These films would depend more on moving images to covey emotions or feelings than on words or storylines. To start with are abstract films such as "An Optical Poem" (1938) by Oskar Fischinger. However, the films do not have to be abstract. I would include the 1940 Disney animated film "Fantasia." I suspect that there are people who dislike that film for a number of reasons, but it is my favorite film of all time and I see in it a connection to ballet. Also, I would include many films made without spoken dialog (silent movies). I don't see these films as necessarily lacking something, but as an art form in their own right. Some silent films I feel would be better with spoken dialog, but I feel there are many that are improved by not having spoken dialog. Included among these films are the "Cabinet of Dr. Caligari" (1919), "The Toll of the Sea" (1922), "The Passion of Joan of Arc" (1928) and "The Wind" (1928). There is a film called "Nature's Symphony" in which moving scenes of nature are synchronized with classical music. Some other examples may seem strange. I have found youtube time-lapse videos taken from the forward window of a subway train and accompanied by music. Then there are videos using moving colored bars showing the notes of a piece of music. By their nature there are synchronized with the music. Your information on parrots is interesting. Thank you for your comment. Tom,

mistake

mistake

Sandik, you make a good point. Thank you. I feel that with "Kinetic Impressions" I do experience it instead of thinking about it. Your explanation regarding neural connection makes sense to me. Tom,

There are certain types of art that I think of as being "Kinetic Impressions." This includes ballet. "Kinetic" refers to pretty much any type of motion - that of people, animals, objects, abstract shapes and other images and it could be live motion or motion that is filmed or recorded by another means. To me the term "Impressions" suggests an immediate effect on the senses that is somewhat vague or suggestive and can be subjective in that people viewing the same impression could perceive it differently and feel differently. What I think of as "Kinetic Impressions" is often associated with music and is enhanced if the movement (the kinetic part) is synchronized with the music. Further "Kinetic Impressions" depend more on images to covey emotions than on words or storylines. These are characteristics that I see in ballet. I think of "Kinetic Impressions" as falling into two groupings. One is what I think of as "Athletic Arts" and the other is not "Athletic Arts." By "Athletic Arts" I mean performances of physical activity in which if there is competition the competitors do not have to be present at the same time and in which the scoring is complex or subjective or both. Some examples of what I mean by "Athletic Arts" are dance, gymnastics, synchronized swimming, acrobatics and figure skating although there are many others. "Athletic Arts" would also include ballet. Over time I have become increasingly fascinated by Kinetic Impressions and I have "collected" a large number of examples of that form of art. In many cases these different examples of Kinetic Impressions may not seem very much alike, but I do see important similarities connecting them. I started this topic as a sort of experiment to see how people respond to these ideas. Tom,

Is there anything in "human nature" that leads us to enjoy watching dance? I'm not asking about the enjoyment of dancing as a participant, but the enjoyment of viewing others dance, as a spectator. There could be a number of answers to this question, but I feel one is related to the idea I expressed above that people could be attracted to other people so as to promote the forming of groups. Taking that further, it could be that the enjoyment of the sight of people undertaking athletic performances, such as dance, could result in the viewer being attracted to those performers, in the sense of wanting to be with them. This enjoyment and attraction might be enhanced if the performers show an expert degree of physical ability. Thus, it is possible that the enjoyment of the sight of athletic performers performing well could enhance the survival of an individual by encouraging them to group with those who are physically fit and capable. Dance would also show the ability to coordinate with others. Individuals who enjoy such a sight would then be more likely to survive and pass along their genes. Because of this I feel there may be an evolutionary explanation for people enjoying the sight of others dancing. This may not only be the case with viewing dance, but it maybe also the case with viewing sports. Tom,

Earlier I brought up the concept of "Nature and Nurture" that is how both what we are born with, basically our genetic makeup (nature) and what we experience (nurture) influence how we perceive the world and in particular what we see as beautiful or attractive. I now want to cover the idea of nature in regard to male beauty in dance or elsewhere. Humans are comparatively weak compared to other animals and we do not have the fangs and sharp teeth that some other animals have. Further humans are able to talk. Because of these things I feel it was and still is important for survival that humans group together. Grouping together means that humans can hunt and defend themselves against stronger animals and it appears to me that talking would only be of benefit if people are in a group. So, I feel that anything that works against humans grouping together would be harmful to the human species and anything that promotes humans grouping together would be helpful to the human species. One thing that would work against humans grouping together is if they are born with a predisposition to find other humans ugly and one thing that would promote humans grouping together is if they are born with a predisposition to find other humans attractive. Attractive means appealing to one's sense of beauty: providing; pleasure or delight, esp. in appearance or manner." It makes sense to me that if a person feels that other people are attractive then they would be more likely to join with others thus improving their chances of survival and their chances of passing on their genes. The opposite would be the case for people who find others ugly. It seems to me that attraction is similar to beauty. So, it appears to me that humans would evolve so as to be born with a predisposition to perceive other humans as attractive or even beautiful. This, I feel, would apply equally to females perceiving males or other females as attractive or beautiful and males perceiving other males or females as attractive or beautiful. Next I plan to write about how I feel the enjoyment of dance relates to what I wrote above. Tom,

This topic is about "Male Beauty in Dance," but I feel to fully examine that topic, particularly in our current culture, it is important to examine the idea of beauty itself and it is this that I have been trying to do. I experience certain things as being beautiful and one of those things are railroad tracks, in regard to their curves, how they intersect when crossing or in switch yards and how straight tracks seem to converge into the distance. This may seem strange and because I see railroad tracks as being beautiful does not mean that they are beautiful in some objective manner and because someone else may not see railroad tracks as being beautiful does not mean that they are not beautiful in some objective manner. Why do I perceive railroad tracks as being beautiful? Well I was not born with an attraction to railroad tracks, but I may have been born with a predisposition toward experiencing certain curves and lines as beautiful and that I see those curves and lines in railroad tracks. However, I also can identify certain experiences I have had which also could have influenced my feelings about railroad tracks. So, even if most people are born with a predisposition toward experiencing those curves and lines as beautiful would not mean that they would experience railroad tracks as beautiful, because they may not have had the same experiences that I have had. That is it is possible that both are needed. Something similar could be the case in the perception of male beauty. People may tend to be born with a predisposition toward experiencing both the female form and the male form as being beautiful, but the nature of their experiences maybe such that the only end up perceiving the female form as being beautiful and may even perceive the male form as being ugly. This may come from a difference in social norms and value regarding the female and male form. Tom,

C. M. B. I applaud attempts to show more male beauty in any of the arts or media and would see that development as something positive. Tom, Quiggin, it seems to me that you are trying to force a connection between things that are not interrelated. Beauty does not beget tyrants, it is not necessarily high maintenance and to answer your question it does not slow down dance or make it ponderous. I feel that Angel Corella is a beautiful man, is a beautiful dancer and that he certainly is fast and light on his feet. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that you are trying to find something negative about male beauty and you are not succeeding in that. Tom,