Tom47

C. M. B. You bring up and interesting and important point. I do feel that there are similarities among what people feel is beautiful, due to either what people are born with in terms of genetics or due to what they experience in life. This would be more likely to be the case in a particular culture or sub-culture at a particular time, but that does not mean that everyone experiences the same things as being beautiful. So, it is possible that, on average, the ". . . ideal of ballet male beauty . . ." does not differ ". . . too much from those Greco-Roman sculpture . . ." for the average person who perceives ballet as being beautiful. But, not all people perceive ballet as being beautiful. To all, I wrote in my first comment to this topic "It seems to me that the word 'Beauty' is not generally associated with the male form . . .," but I was not sure if everyone would agree with me on that. Since writing that no one has disagreed and I wonder if that means that people do agree with that statement. I would like to hear from anyone who disagrees or anyone who agrees. Tom,

Sandik, I agree with your statement "By consigning women to such a limited place in the culture they have limited their own vision of what a human can be -- I think this affects their aesthetic vision as well." My point in bringing up the Classical Greeks wasn't to hold them up as an ideal, but was to give an example where I felt the perception of beauty, in regard to the sexes, was different than our own thus supporting my belief that just because something is common in our current culture doesn't mean that it is what is natural. I don't believe that the Classical Greeks were the only culture that limited the vision of what a human can be. Again thank you for your intelligent input. If forces me to think about and refine my opinions. Tom,

Sandik, thank you for your reply, I value the input of someone like you who has knowledge of the Classical Greeks. I agree that the Greeks at that time, particularly the Greeks in Athens, treated women as second class citizens and I would add maybe worse and that is certainly a major failure of that culture, but I'm not sure what you mean by ". . . it's tricky to apply an aesthetic developed at a time when women were so clearly second class citizens to issues about gender." I also believe that all or at least most civilizations treated women as second class citizens or even worse. In my opinion we are currently moving in a direction where people are less likely to be assigned roles based simply on their gender. I like to think that we will also move in a direction where it is no longer felt that people of a certain gender are less beautiful than those of the other gender. Tom,

One reason I feel the male from can be perceived as beautiful is that I have found more and more cases where I perceive the male form as being beautiful. Many of these examples are in ballet, but I have also seen this in other art forms. Dame Laura Knight was an artist (I feel a very good artist) born in the United Kingdom in 1877. She appears to have mainly produced works depicting women or children, but did some beautiful depictions of men, In particular there is the painting "Physical Training at Witley Camp" (1918) hopefully shown a the following link: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/02/2b/17/022b17169c9f5992978d0f2ea8ceab8d.jpg I view the form and the action of the men in this picture as being beautiful. Further I see them as related to ballet in terms of their exaggerated movement. That I see is an important part of the beauty of ballet and also the beauty of this picture. I also see the clouds and the straight lines of the ropes as compared tot he action of the boxers as adding to the painting's beauty. If you cannot view the painting through the above link you can do a google image search for "Physical Training at Witley Camp" by Dame Laura Knight. I still would like to see examples of what the members of Ballet Alert view as Male Beauty either in dance or elsewhere. Tom,

I wrote "what maybe beautiful to one person may not be to another," but it maybe that people as a whole tend to experience many of the same things to be beautiful. That is many, but not all people may agree on what is beautiful in some cases. There could be, at least, two reasons for this, which could be summarized as "Nature and Nurture." Nature refers to what we are born with, basically our genetic makeup, while Nurture refers to how we are brought up, including what we are explicitly or implicitly taught. In my opinion people are not born with a predisposition to perceive the human form as being ugly and may very well be born with a predisposition to perceive the human form, both the female form and the male form, as being attractive and in some cases even beautiful. My opinion is that the predisposition to perceiving the human form as attractive and in some cases even beautiful is of similar intensity in regard to the viewing of both the female and the male form. However, in regard to nurture, it is my opinion that the way we are brought up, including what we are explicitly or implicitly taught influences what people in any particular culture experience as being attractive or beautiful. So in any particular culture at any particular time there may be similarities in what people regard as being beautiful. But, it also appears to me that in different cultures and at different times the concept of what is beautiful, in some cases, varies significantly. To start this topic I wrote "It seems to me that the word "Beauty" is not generally associated with the male form, but I feel that the male form has the potential to be seen as beautiful as the female form." I believe that, in our culture, (primarily modern USA) people tend to perceive the female form as being more beautiful than the male and in some cases may feel that the male form is never beautiful. But I don't believe that is because of human nature (what we are born with), but due to the nature of our culture. I feel there could be a culture in which people tend to perceive the male form as being more beautiful than the female. My guess is that a person, female or male, living in Greece during the Classical period (approximately 500 BCE to 300 BCE) would have said that the male form is more beautiful than the female. I see that this discussion relates to Ballet, as I feel that Ballet tends to be a exception to the general idea of beauty in this culture in that men are not presented as being beautiful and I feel that many viewers of Ballet experience male dancers as being beautiful and so Ballet may be a good area to examine the idea of Male Beauty. Tom,

C. M. B. I appreciate your comment on this topic, but I am not sure what your point is. Tom,

Syrene, again I thank you for your contribution to this topic. Your comment led met to the following thought. I feel it is difficult to always separate my subjective opinion from objective fact. Earlier I wrote that "Sometimes I might say or write that something is beautiful, but that is just a shorthand way of me saying that I perceive it as beautiful." However, it is also a matter of habit on my part. Plus when I feel strongly about the beauty of something it is difficult for me to see an opposing viewpoint. I am not always logical. In regard tot he topic of "Male Beauty in Dance" at times I have experienced intense aesthetic pleasure and deep satisfaction when viewing a male dancer dancing. That is I experienced that man performing his dance to be beautiful. This is true no matter what others think about me or even if no one else in the whole world experienced it to be beautiful. This is what I started this topic to explore and Syrene, you and ABTFan have helped me do that. Tom,

I have written that I feel strongly that beauty is in the "eye of the beholder." What that means to me is that a person or object or any living thing cannot be beautiful or ugly in and of itself. I may perceive something as being beautiful, but that does not make that thing beautiful, because the perception of beauty is within me, not in the object. Someone else may perceive that same thing as being ugly and by the same logic that does not make it ugly. Sometimes I might say or write that something is beautiful, but that is just a shorthand way of me saying that I perceive it as beautiful. I suspect not all people feel that way. For example The Random House College Dictionary defines beauty as "a quality that is present in a thing or person giving intense aesthetic pleasure or deep satisfaction to the senses or the mind." I agree with the second part of that definition ("giving intense aesthetic pleasure or deep satisfaction to the senses or the mind"), but for the first part to be the case ("a quality that is present in a thing or person") would mean that everyone would have the same perception or opinion regarding the beauty of a person or thing. I don't think that is the case. Tom,

Helene, I finished reading "Dance Was Worth It All" the story of Nini Theilade's life. It was very interesting particularly the parts about dancing. Tom,

Syrene, thank you for the reply and the links. This is how I learn about different dancers. Looking at your profile I noticed that you live in Demark. I just finished reading Nini Theilade's book "Dance Was Worth It All." Tom,

ABT Fan, thank you for commenting and for the link. You make a good point. I feel strongly that beauty is in the "eye of the beholder" and in that way is subjective to the person perceiving the beauty. Meaning what maybe beautiful to one person may not be to another. So, the perception of beauty can vary a great deal both from one person to another and also within the same person. I would like people to comment, like you did, on what they feel are examples of male beauty in dance, but also male beauty in general. Again, nothing that I write is meant to take away from female beauty. Tom,

It seems to me that the word "Beauty" is not generally associated with the male form, but I feel that the male form has the potential to be seen as being as beautiful as the female form. One of the many things I enjoy when viewing dance and in particular ballet, is the many times I perceive the male dancers to be beautiful. I don't know if that sounds strange or not. Perhaps the best example of this, at least in my mind, is the short ballet "Le Spectre de la Rose" and there are others. I also found examples of beautiful dances by men at the "Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater" website. These include "Ostrich" and "Takedeme." At the BravoFact website I found "Lost in Motion" and doing a search I found "The Calm Below." It's not just the visual aspect of the form of the male dancers that I find beautiful, but also the costumes they wear and the expressive quality of their motions. These are traits that I feel are not generally associated with men. By writing the above I do not mean to say that women are not beautiful, but that is a common feeling and is easy to say. It is more difficult for me to say that men are beautiful. Tom,

Alexandra, I have thought about this question for a long time and I feel that the simple answer is that it is both an Art and a Sport. The Random House College Dictionary defines Art as "the quality, production, expression, or realm of what is beautiful, or of more than ordinary significance." Based on that, in my mind Ballet is definitely an Art, particularly in terms of being beautiful. The definition for Sport is "an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature." I interpret the phrase "of a competitive nature" as meaning overt competition where there are formal winners and losers. Since the word "often" is used in the definition of sport and not the word "always" and since Ballet is "an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess," Ballet could also fit that definition, even if not overtly competitive. This brings me to what I think of as "Athletic Arts." By "Athletic Arts" I mean performances of physical activity in which if there is competition the competitors do not have to be present at the same time and in which the scoring is complex or subjective or both. Some examples of what I mean by "Athletic Arts" are dance, gymnastics, synchronized swimming, acrobatics and figure skating although there are many others. I feel that trying to make Athletic Arts overtly competitive is harmful to its art. Tom,

Helene I was able to download the book "Dance Was Worth It All" which was the story of her life. It is very interesting and I have been reading it all day. Thank you again for the reference. Sandik thank you for responding. Tom,

Helene thank you very much. Tom,

Helene, thanks for replying. The mini biography I mentioned was just a paragraph for a 2005 film "Ballets Russes." I briefly looked for a way to contact someone, but couldn't find any - the same for the IMBd information. About 9 months ago I found a Vimeo video which seems to have been connected with Nini and I left a comment, but did not receive any response, so I don't know what happened. Since I last posted here I found a webpage that was published on June 15, 2015. It seems to state (it is a translation from Danish) that Nini made it to her 100th birthday "And were it not for an unfortunate fall in 2013, she had still been sitting in front of young aspiring dancers and pounded his (sic) cane on the floor when she thought they made an effort." It also indicates that she was living in a "small nursing home" at that time. the article was written by Charlotte Nielsen so maybe my best bet is to try and contact her. I would also like to communicate with anyone who is knows about Nini Theilade. Tom,

From what I have read, Nini Theilade was born in Poerwokerto, Banjoemas, Dutch East Indies (now in Indonesia) on June 15, 1915 [from IMDb]. I believe that for the most part she lived, studied and worked in Europe, in particular Demark. I first saw her on film in the 1935 movie "A Midsummer Night's Dream" where she danced and acted the role of the fairie attending Titania. I also believe that she choreographed the dance scenes which I find to be enchanting. She then danced for the Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo. I recently read a mini biography which stated that "Nini Theilade lives in Demark where she teaches at a university dance department." If she is still alive she would be 101 years old this June 15th. I would like very much to send her a congratulatory "fan" note. Tom,

Does anyone know if Nini Theilade is still alive and how I could email her? Tom,

Elena, I like your statement that “Personally when I think of the definition of ballet I too think of line, placement, turn out, the equilibrium of the body, a specific codified vocabulary.” Even before starting this thread I kind of felt that way although I couldn’t talk clearly about them. I feel that the answer to my original query is complex and involves many different qualities of ballet. After reading all of these replies, which I appreciate, I feel even stronger that the answer to my original query would have to be complex. Tom,

Quiggin, your point about touch is a good one. When I looked at the picture you linked to (from 1653) the dancer seems to have a certain care and delinquency of “touch,” the way the hands are held as if lightly and carefully touching something and the way the feet are positioned to touch the floor that I feel I have seen in modern day ballet dancers, almost like walking a tight rope. Thank you for the link. Tom, PS Does what I wrote make sense to anyone?

This post is edited below. Tom,

Angelica, I know you said you were going away for a week, but I didn’t want you to think your posts were going into a “black hole.” I have been following your comments about ballet line and I realize that ballet line is not the same as lines in “action poses” or railroad tracks. These examples are just what came to my mind when thinking about ballet lines. Tom,

Yes, Albany Girl, you're right, I misspoke. I will edit it. Sorry. Tom,

Karen, I have watched ballet on YouTube, but either because of my computer or my ability my experience, while positive, has not been great. I would primarily classify ballet as an art, but I feel there is an overlap with sport also. I think of any kind of dance, gymnastics, synchronized swimming, cheerleading, figure skating, trampoline, acrobatics and maybe diving as being “Athletic Arts,” as far as I know I made up the term. My definition of an “Athletic Art” is an athletic activity whose primary purpose is beauty. In my mind the most important part of any “Athletic Art” is the beauty and I feel any overt competition distracts from the beauty. I just looked up the term “Athletic Arts” and I found out I didn’t invent it. Tom,

Karen, I believe that when I wrote that I was planning to watch a DVD I have of the American Ballet Theatre doing “La Corsaire,” but instead I watched some parts of “Swan Lake.” I don’t know what company preformed that. I live near Rochester, NY and recently I saw the Rochester Ballet perform to recently composed music describing New York City. Both the dancers and the orchestra were on the stage with the dancers in front of the orchestra. Tom,