MinkusPugni Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Anyone who's read my posts before will know that I'm not a huge Graeme Murphy fan but now I think my mind has changed slightly: The key to Swan Lake IS the music and (for me) putting the score back close to its original version. So putting the Black Swan in Act 1 where Tchaikovsky put it and not cutting repeats just to make your life easier - because it was there for a reason. Link to comment
Solor Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 I think one needs to keep in mind that Tchaikovsky was doing what the ballet master wanted when he 1st composed "Swan Lake". People often say that the score of 1877 was his "original vision".....all he was doing was following instructions at the behest of the ballet master. The ballet master, for example, told him, "a pas de deux here, with (just for instance) and adagio here, a variation there, coda, etc. etc., a waltz, etc, etc.........." He was following directions, just as he did with "Sleeping Beauty" & "The Nutcracker". Another recording of the entire 1877 score is useless, just like the trillions of recordings of the same Mozart or Beethoven symphony (it blows my mind everytime I go into a music store and I see the endless recordings of the same stuff, be it Mozart, or Tchaikovsky or whoever). Tchaikovsky didnt 'put' the "Black Swan" Pas anywhere - again, he was told what to compose. It just so happens that this pas was where it was when the entire score was done in 1877. If this conductor knew anything about the history of "Swan Lake" , it would be known that there was no "Black Swan" anything anywhere in "Swan Lake" in 1877 or even in 1895......Again, we have a conductor conducting music for the ballet when they nothing about ballet music. Link to comment
Mel Johnson Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 No, he didn't. Tchaikovsky worked out the Swan Lake score pretty much on his own, using other ballets as a working model. Julius Reisinger, the original choreographer, was not like Marius Petipa, who would send choreographic scripts to his composers. Link to comment
Hans Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 It should also be noted that Swan Lake was Tchaikovsky's first ballet, and IMO he didn't really know what he was doing, so while the music is good as music, some of it is pretty awful for dancing. Variations blather on endlessly, the "white acts" are filled out with pointless "scènes," &c. I do think Tchaikovsky's original idea of having the would-be brides enter separately during the waltz, each with her own fanfare, makes sense--that way it works as an entrée for the pas de six, in which Odile joins as a prospective wife. So there's good and bad, but I think Petipa made intelligent decisions regarding the re-ordering of the score, some of which were made with Tchaikovsky's permission, shortly before the composer's death. Link to comment
Mel Johnson Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Exactly right, Hans! There is a "symphonism" to the 1877 score that had to be abated for the revivals of the 1890s. Act II having been modified during Tchaikovsky's lifetime, the music there was modified with his active participation. It seems that it got a second massage before the 1895 full production, this time from Drigo, but with a great deal of attention to instruction from the composer, which was mixed with comment from Petipa. Link to comment
MinkusPugni Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 I do think Tchaikovsky's original idea of having the would-be brides enter separately during the waltz, each with her own fanfare, makes sense--that way it works as an entrée for the pas de six, in which Odile joins as a prospective wife. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> When I first heard the original score I thought exactly the same thing until I realised there were only three fanfares before the full waltz so... I only agree with some of the changes Drigo made which were to get better results from the lovely Tchaikovsky score but he made (I know... under instruction) many pointless ones. I do agree with replacing the original pas de six intro music with the waltz and changing the orchestration of the male black swan variation (NOT cutting it up though). There are some other ones I agree with too but many I disagree with. Does anyone have a full list of Drigo's changes to the score? Link to comment
bart Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 So putting the Black Swan in Act 1 where Tchaikovsky put it and not cutting repeats just to make your life easier - because it was there for a reason. Tchaikovsky didnt 'put' the "Black Swan" Pas anywhere - again, he was told what to compose. It just so happens that this pas was where it was when the entire score was done in 1877. If this conductor knew anything about the history of "Swan Lake" , it would be known that there was no "Black Swan" anything anywhere in "Swan Lake" in 1877 or even in 1895. I'm confused. Can someone explain what this debate refers to -- and which is correct? Link to comment
Hans Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 As Mel wrote, Tchaikovsky was not told what to compose for Swan Lake--see his post immediately following Solor's. Link to comment
carbro Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 At the risk of confusing matters even more , weren't passages of what became the Black Swan pas (i.e., the adage and one of the variations) originally part of Act I? Link to comment
MinkusPugni Posted August 11, 2005 Author Share Posted August 11, 2005 The whole of the Black Swan is supposed to be in act one. Link to comment
doug Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 MinkusPugni, the changes made for the 1895/95 revivals are listed in Roland John Wiley's "Tchaikovsky's Ballets." You can get it an amazon.com by clicking at the top of this page on your screen. I think you would enjoy this book very much. The scholarship is very reliable and many questions are answered. Cheers. Link to comment
Solor Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Yea MinkusPugni, I put this up a while ago. Though it is not ALL of them (the score had little alterations done here and there) but heres the list of the most obvious: Drigo only did a few things to the score as far as BIG changes are concerned (I mean additions of music and/or revisions of endings to certain numbers). Aside from editing and, for example, changing a number from, say, 'allegro vivance' to 'moderato' (the first variation in the 1st act pas de trois) he did the following (and keep in mind, all at the behest of Ivanov and Petipa): **the Waltz and the pas de trois in Act I were reversed. **the order of the Dances of the Swans was changed from - swans waltz, odettes variation, the little swans, the big swans, pas d'action (or white adagio), swans waltz reprise (cut in 1895), and the coda. The new order, following the formula of a grand pas d'action, went as so - swans waltz, "white" adagio, the little swans, the big swans, odettes variation, coda. **he revised the ending of the 'white' adagio in the 2nd act from the original allegro ending, and gave it the more familiar close we know of today. Also, he extended the harp arpeggios that were originally composed. **he revised the coda and extended it by having it repeat before the end. **the entrance of Odille was now followed by the grand Divertessment. The Spanish Dance came to next so that the music could transition smoothly. **he transfered the pas de deux from the 1st act to the 3rd (after the grand divertessment), making it the famous "Black Swan" pas de deux (Originally, Odille was just a "Magic Swan", not a black one - this came in later revivals). He revised the ending from the original allegro to a new closing (as with the 2nd act adagio). The familiar variation for Siegfried was fashioned out of the omitted allegro. This did not happen for the 1st production. It was inserted into the pas by Vakhtang Chabukiani in 1941 I think. **Drigo then fashioned a variation for Odille to a piece from Tchaikovsky's opus 72 for piano - "L'espiegle op.72/no.12".........orchestrated very well I might add! Very colorful and rich arrangements - especially when heard live or on CD. Then came the familiar coda (where the famous 32 foutees were performed) this was left pretty much unchanged except for an internal repeat being deleted. **For the last act, the opening number was edited. This number originally went into the "Dance of the Little Swans", which was ommitted for the next number. The original Harp candenza was extended to go into the next addition of Drigo etc. - **Drigo's next interpolation came again from Tchaikovsky's opus 72 for piano - in this case it was "Valse Bluette op.72/no.11". This was added as a waltz for the Swans, and replaced the number originally composed. Drigo's orchestrations for this piece are magical and brilliant - a joy to hear live or on CD. **and the last insertion was for a short pas d'action for the two lovers, again from opus 72 - "Un Poco di Chopin op.72/no.15". Of all of the additions, this is the one I always felt could have been done without, not that it is not a well arranged number - again, Drigo does a fine job orchestrating. As far as the "Tchainovsy Pas de Deux" goes (It should really be called the "Minkus orchestrated by Tchainovsky Pas de Deux"): A ballerina named Anna Sobeshanskaya who did not like the choreographer of the first 1877 production of "Swan Lake" nor did she care much for Tchaikovskys score. So, she travled from Moscow to St. Petersburg so that the choreographer Petipa could fashion a new pas de deux for her to the music of Minkus. When Tchaikovsky heard of this he objected to the interpolation of another composers music. So he agreed to compose a new pas for Sobeshanskaya. But it left the problem of the choreography having to be changed, and Sobeshanskaya did not want to go to Petipa a second time. It is said Tchaikovsky composed a pas that would bar for bar and note for note match the music of Minkus. It is said that the male variation of this pas was left un-touched by Tchaikovsky, and it carries the signature sound of a 19th century 3/4 male variation (main melody, central melody, back to main melody). If one listens to it, it certainly appears so. I have read in a few places that the "Tchaikovsky pas de deux" is actually Minkus's music with Tchaikovsky's orchestrations. It really does sound like this is true, to me anyway..... ----special thanks to Roland Wiley's "Tchaikovsky's Ballets" for helping me with this list! And Victor Fedotov's recording of "Swan Lake" with the Orchestra of the Mariinksy Theatre. MinkusPugni - You should really get "Tchaikovsky's Ballets" by Roland John Wiley. It is out of print but you can get a used copy through Amazon.com. It is probably gonna be pretty pricey though. Also, there is a re-issue of the "Swan Lake" recording by the late ballet conductor for the Kirov Victor Fedotov of the complete performance score modified by Drigo. It is available through this page - http://www.classicalrecords.ru/cr/cd-en/042.htm It is kind of a pain in the you know what to get a hold of (I has to do an international bank transfer to buy it).....but you can get it! Also, they have a re-issue of the performance score of the Petipa's 1898 "Raymonda". Link to comment
MinkusPugni Posted August 16, 2005 Author Share Posted August 16, 2005 Doug, thanks so much for the suggestion of the book. I will most certainly buy it. Solor, thanks HEAPS for all that info! Yes, I heard that story about that mysterious pas de deux but I also read somewhere that the ballerina (Anna Sobeshanskaya) wanted a pas de deux for the black swan in the third act (though as stated, not then the black swan) so she went to Tchaikovsky first (with the collaboration of Petipa) but midway, the project was scrapped and it was decided that the pas de deux from the first act would be used. Tchaikovsky had written all the pieces but all were in piano-score form. The only one orchestrated was the second variation. I'm not sure which one to believe!? I have to say that I much prefer the original score to Drigo's. Of course some of it had to be changed - such as Siegfried's Black Swan variation (though I believe it only needed to be reorchestrated and not cut - a longer variation is a better one) but I believe many of the changes are unnecessary and in some cases inappropriate. I believe the changes to the ending of both Swan pas de deuxs are inappropriate. The B theme of the white swan pas de deux could be repeated and this is a good idea but Drigo's addition of the violin runs are completely unlike Tchaikovsky and sound strange - the same for the black swan pas de deux. It could have easily stopped while the violin is doing the trills and there are two pizzicato notes but Drigo decided to add runs which sound so odd! I also MUCH prefer the original Black Swan variation than the Drigo one. The Drigo one sounds like a solo for Odette who is helpless and soft - whereas Odile is strong, buoyant, shows off and is cunning. The original variation, in my opinion, would show Odile's difference in character from Odette's better than Drigo's variation. If I was rechoreographing this ballet, I would try to use as much of the original score as possible. Link to comment
PetipaFan Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 The recording I have of Swan Lake is the 1988 one from USSR State Symphony Orchestra with the conductor Yevgeny Svetlanov. http://www.musicabona.com/catalog/MELCD1000403.html.en It doesn't mention on the CD what score was used but as a reviewer noted, "this recording contains The Black Swan Pas de deux which was not part of the original score for Swan Lake and is often not included in many recordings." It doesn't seem they used much other Drigo? It's a great recording maybe it's the best there is I don't know. Link to comment
Solor Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 It doesn't mention on the CD what score was used but as a reviewer noted, "this recording contains The Black Swan Pas de deux which was not part of the original score for Swan Lake and is often not included in many recordings."It doesn't seem they used much other Drigo? It's a great recording maybe it's the best there is I don't know. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That recording is indeed the orignal score from 1877 - the reviewer seems to share in the confusion that many perople have concerning the original 1st act PDD that was later revised to become the Grand Pas for act 3 (or in the case of the Kirov act II). The pdd recorded in this case is the orignal Tchaikvosy,and not the one later revised by Drigo and company. In my own educated opinion as a ballet dancer and collector of 19th century ballet music on CD, the best recording of the original score is by Charles Dutoit conducting the Montreal Symphony (this recording ommits a number in act II, the Swan's Waltz reprise, but does contain a great recording if the "Tchikovsky Pas de Deux"). It is well conducted without the usual rushed tempi of most symphonic conductors. The conductor Dutoit, wether he was aware of it or not, conducts the classical variations well, with a "dancer aware" tempo and ending of each varaition, slowing down the music a little at the end. Heres the link - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...nce&s=classical The next is of course the Fedotov recording of the Drigo revised score of 1895, though at times Fedotov seems to forget his ballet conducting and rushes things a little. Heres the link to that one - http://www.classicalrecords.ru/cr/cd-en/042.htm The next is a recording if excerpts by the Georgian Festival Orchestra conducted by Vato Kahl. This recording conatins properly conducted numbers with thier 1895 revisions, such as the "White Adagio" from the 2nd act, the pas de trois (only the 1st variation is recorded here, along with the coda), the entree, adagio, and solo for Siegfried from the 'Black Swan' Pas, the Swans Waltz, the opening scene in Act II with all the editions of 1895 and a wonderfully performed "entrance fo Odette". Heres that link - sample the music! http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...g=UTF8&v=glance The next recording I would recomend is a recording by Boris Spassov conducting the Sofia National Opera Orch. called "Pas de Deux". This disc contains many treasures of the ballet, but it has the best recording I have ever heard of the 'Black Swan' pas de deux. The variations, adagio, and entree are all played at the proper tempo. A great thing to have if one ever needs a recording of this number. It also conatins the pas de deux from "Le Corsaire", "Flower Festival at Genzano", "The Flames of Paris", the grand pas and the 'peasant pas de deux' from "Giselle", and the very very very old pas de deux from Hertel's score of "Le Fille Mal Gardee". This item was only available in Europe but is now available in the states. Heres the link - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00...7142393-1020743 Link to comment
doug Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 I like the Dutoit recording best, too. One thing to remember about recording tempi is that performance tempi for Swan Lake in 1877 and/or 1895 may well have varied from appropriate tempi for dancing today because the choreography and performance style was different then. Also, Tchaikovsky may have preferred (this could be deduced from his tempo markings) tempi that one would not deem suitable for dance performance today. A number of variables exist when a conductor selects tempi for a recording of music for which a metronome marking has not been given by the composer and the Italian rubrics given may be interpreted with flexibility. I assume a condcutor would prefer to follow Tchaikovsky's tempo markings rather than those of Drigo or (God forbid) a ballet master. Also, a conductor likely is not conducting a recording with dancing in mind. I also assume that most conductors would assume a dance performance will have live, rather than recorded, music and therefore would not presume their recording would be used to accompany a dance performance. Some of the Bayadere Shades scene scores in the Harvard collection have metronome markings that would have most dancers today up in arms. Link to comment
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