Nanarina

My thanks to both of you,I'm glad we all agreed about this Dvd.- the part with Clive Barnes got to me too. Looking forward to the info on Rudi.

Can you please tell us about the Nureyev Bio. Is it the one where her swims naked from his Island hideaway or is it FromRussia ........Where it is about his early life? Looking forward to the getting the details Nana.

That's nice to know, thanks. I'm not sure I'm up to sitting through the entire running time in a theater - Wiseman's documentaries now tend to run about as long as Braveheart - but at least I have the option.

It should be out on DVD in 4/6 months, so you watch it at your leisure at home (if you have a DVD) Nana

I recommend this documentary "Margot", having recently viewed it through Netflix. It was very informative, I learned alot more about her day to day routine and her financial struggles towards the end of her life. When she guested with us in Washington, you would never have known of her problems. In this dvd, there is an extended segment of her gala in which Sir Fredrick Ashton joins her on stage to do the "Fred step". Maybe I'm too sentmental, but watching this section,I find myself getting teary. I would now love to see a documentary on Rudi of the same caliber.

Hello Duffster: I must wholeheartly agree ith you, I do not think for one minute you are too sentimental, from the first time I watched it, I felt very emotional, when you see the struggle Cive Barnes has to control his obvious distress, it tugs at your heart strings. The end where you see the small metal plate in the cemetary, and Margot's sister in laws description of events, is so very sad.

Seeing Margot when she was younger. and as I remember her in Act One pretty pink sleeping beauty tutu, which I attended to on many occasions. or seeing her and Ruddi together makes me cry.

May she rest in peace Nana.

Normally I moan loudly about the fact that the Swedish TV show ancient ballet programs (if they show anything at all) and that the culture channel show equally ancient stuff (in that case it might be understandable, they probably buy cheap sale packets at TV fairs).

But I want to thank all previous posters for their views - this stuff is not worth waiting for five or six years for. I can relax and realise that I have missed nothing at all. All this said sarcastically.

But one a more serious note. I am flabbergasted that some guys got their heads together, and got in their own opinion the very great idea to drag two persons' names through the mud, knowing that same two people cannot stand up and defend themselves. OK, it might not be that bad, but from your posts I gather that truth was not strictly adhered to. IMO, it would have been better to make a screen play based on the characters of MF and RN.

Most probably I will not bother to see it when it comes along.

Look out for the documentary "Margot" by Tony Palmer, and produced by Keith Money, Isolde Films MMV Digital Classics Cat.No DC10001 (2005?) This is very good indeed, and although it is revealing, the people who speak are those who really knew Margot, and the production is very respectful and well filmed. God luck as it is multi regional I hope you will be able to get it to watch and enjoy. You can buy it on line from Amazon France using Euro's if need be.

A review of the film from The Times http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol...icle6938024.ece

Do scroll down past the column to read the comment by Ian Payne.

I agree with the comments that Ms Duff and her co Actors did not reppresent Margo, Ruddi, Sir Fred, Madame, Somes and BQ in my opinion, it was simply nothing like them at all. The Other documentary which tells the story of her whole life, called Margot is much more faithful. Just by watching this and seeing the clips posted on Swan Lake etc, shows how dismal the efforts of this programme were. The other true documentary does contain some candid information, given by dancers and critics etc, and I do not see any reason for these people to exaggerate or lie about their personal knowledge.

It seems awful that young people do not know the world atlas. there is no excuse really, as even if they are not taught at school this information is available on line. Does this confirm that their time is mainly used in playing computer games and watching TV? And in connection with dance of the world that is the least of their interests. Unless they are involved in the arts.

It's not the kids i blame but the adults. schools (NCLB plays a big part here but its not the only culprit) cut out "extras" with the goal of having children test well on the things that are tested, mainly reading/writing and math. sometimes science, less often social studies, almost never music or art. and parents don't prioritize these things outside of school, often because they never learned much about them themselves.

Nana: I thimk you have made a very relative point Thankyou E. Johhnson

As this film appears to be about an unsubstantiated affair between Fonteyn and Nureyev surely it all comes under the heading of fiction rather than biography anyway, as all this speculation seems to be based on someone once spotting RN leaving MF's hotel room at an early hour. That's not much of a basis for assuming they were lovers in my book, but never mind, let's make a film about it anyway, putting aside the inconvenient truth that Nureyev was gay and actually on record as saying how unappealing he found heterosexual union.

Mashinka, he may have said it, but there is also another documentary sbout his life as a student, and early days in the Kirov. Which is to be screened (I think this week after Romeo and Juliet (MacMillan Royal Ballet) From memory of only seeing this once, it contains some rather surprising revalations about his conduct with a Tutor's wife, and it's results. Then there is a fellow young lady dancer. Perhaps he had a preference for an experienced older woman? And in the early days he was still "experimenting ", for him to be able to make this comment, (If he did) rather than just being confirmed gay. As you know Men did not "come out", even hiding behind marriage/children until well after the sixties, and in Russia and the UK it was probably still illegal. As the taboos lifted so many of these men were able to admit to their sexual orientation.

Both Dame Margot and Rudolf Nureyev had had big hearts and a generosity of spirit. The vast majority of us will remember them for this and their relationships with hundreds of people whose names will neither appear in any book or newspaper article nor most probably any film, but who loved them.

I'm not defending tabloid trash or unsubstantiated gossip, but I think interest in the personal relationship between these two great dancers is natural. They were not just performers, they were people, and their personal relationship was important to both of them. To suggest that their private lives be completely off limits by biographers and filmmakers is kind of unrealistic.

Yes Canbelto, this is very true, they were not just dance partners, you only had to see them together off stage, in the cafeteria, whispering and looking into each others eye's,walking hand in hand in the corridors, sharing costume fittings, sitting in a cave dressing room together drinking sweet tea,at Baalbeck. This is neither made up or un-substantiated it was witnessed by many people, including myself at the time. It was also wonderful to see. But their privacy was respected within the Company.

I don't see Ansanelli bearing much of a resemblance to Fonteyn looks wise, other than they both have dark hair.

True, but Ansanelli is a dancer. (If the makers of "Isadora" back in the Sixties had cast Lynn Seymour as in the title role, she wouldn't have been an exact physical match, but in spirit and style she would have been as close to Isadora as anyone could have gotten.)

Duff also strikes me as a little young for the movie's time frame described in the article - she will be playing the middle aged Fonteyn, not the young dancer. So in the best of all possible worlds a suitable mature ballerina would be cast in the role, although no one springs to mind offhand.

It may be, of course, that the filmmakers don't intend on showing much if any dancing, in which case the project would indeed be worth very little....

Thanks for commenting, everyone! Keep posting.

(Edited to note that my comment was in response to Old Fashioned's post and not Helene's, which I didn't see before posting, and so I've altered this post slightly to reflect that.)

Has anyone out there seen the DVD "MARGOT"? It is a complete coverage of her life and dancing thus no need for a movie, i.e a phony portrait.

Nana: Yes,Smitty I have it and frequently watch it, everytime I do so, it is so "real" it brings memories flooding back. By the end I feel emotionally drained, as I can remember speaking to Margo before and after the performances, I had to be on duty to surpervise the costumes side of things. She was a relly lovely person, and I also knew Ruddi, I still have a pressed red carnation he gave me after a show (Raymonda) at The Baalbek Festival in The Lebanon. Poor Margo after such a long and dedicated career and her loyalty to a non deserving husband.The terrible suffering she endured at the end of her life, is heart braking I also have Meredith Daneman's Book.

I found the cast did not really get into the c haracters, and it was hard for me to reconise the people they were supposed to be. I was quite disapointed with the film. Whilst it featured things we alraedy knew about bout the subjects. However, the other two people of the series of Women we loved, I was much more comfortable with the portrayals, but cannot help wondering if it was because I never actually met or knew Enid Blyton or Gracie Fields. Is it due to the fact I still have a very clear picture of Margot and Ruddi, plus the others in my mind. I feel sure that they could have found different people to portray a number of renouned people in the dance world who could both act and dance.

The research that was undertaken regarding aesthetic issues must have been very minimal. Nothing was like the originals used by in particular by Margot. The costumes failed to look like the actual onrs, which was e mistake as there are plenty of photographs and video's available to refer to. This is surely the responsibility of the designer

No not for me, when you look at the clips from the documentaries posted earlier you realise that this play fails miserably to tell the story of Margo and Ruddi..

From the 2nd edition of the Concise Oxford Dictionary of Ballet:

"Cancan (also Can-Can or Chahut) Orignally a decent and measured social dance invented by Monsieur Masarie in 1830 as a varient of the quadrille, it appeared after 1844 in the French music halls, developing there an increasingly uninhibited emphasis on the throwing up of the legs of the danseuses and the display of their underwear so that it was soon forbidden by the authorities. It is an immensely electrifying and lively dance in 2/4 time, considered by some to be a successor of the fandango."

Thank you Alymer, we are getting lots of very interesting information on this thread now.

Nanarina.

I am so sorry Mel, I am afraid my eye's have probably mis-read something, it is a shame as want I wanted you to see was brilliant (Or so I thought). It is the first time I have ever attempted this exercise. So I need much more practice.

A.D.M's info about the caller is enlightening, we still have a caller in UK Country dancing, and our repreaentation of square dance, based on American, plus country and western. I think maybe?? in some forms of Scottish dance. It would help dizzy blondes like me(when younger) to know where to go

and what to do. If they wanted a disaster they would have only had to let me loose!!

If you wish you can go onto my YouTube Page under Nanarinauk(Top right), click on here to reveal a drop down menu,click on playlists, new window, lists on left of page, scroll down until you reach Character Dance. You will find different posts there r If you want a run of them, click play all and it will make viewing like a film. The last clip is my favourite. Better still if you put the setting on full screen. Hope you have better luck with this. Nana.

Hello Mel,

Thank you very much for your post, it was most interesting. I do not profess to have such a wide knowledge as you about the subject, and in a lot of respects my gut feelings are responsible to if I like something or not. I found I could not relate to the Can Can being connected to the Marzurka, and that was why I tried to research it. I watched a lot of peerformance on my computer, showing a variety of Marzurka. some which seemed to be in folk form, or amatuer? Other with more professional dancers. I still feel the same about character dance in ballet, I prefer it to be danced into the ground more, not with too much elevation.,(depending of course in the dance in question) which is how I feel it was meant to be

I cannot seem to get my computer to post items from YouTube onto Ballet Talk, but there is something I hope you will not mind me asking you to look at. (Hope I can get the URL okay as it is in vdery small print for me( Any information Mel appreciated)

http://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=v5bwS62m (Staged choreography)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saYDoWoY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFKbIAVPpu

.

If one wants to do a 'subversive anti-papacy show at Christmas to really *mike a stite-ment* ', it's not the BBC that's the right venue, it's at an alternative space in live performance, or on special exotic cable channels.

Hi Patrick,

One thing I really want people to understand is that the piece was intended for BBC4. BBC4 is not a mainstream BBC channel - it's a specialist pay to view/cable channel that specifically shows high art and niche arts subjects.

It is an alternative space for broadcast performance. It's the equivalent of an art gallery, niche arts performance space, the content shown is more specialised than other cable channels such as the Performance Channel.

There was never any intention of showing the De Frutos sandwiched between Blue Peter and Eastenders and never any real potential for a five year old to switch on the television and be confronted with images of a Pope punching a pregnant nun. To get BBC4 you actually have to have the cable technology and actively want to scroll through the menu to find it and select it.

BBC4 is as off-the-beaten-track, non mass audience, niche market as it's possible to get.

Thanks for clarifying, Simon. I thought it might be possible that there was something I was missing about British TV (may not have read your posts closely enough sorry). And I have to say, now that you've explained it, I can't disagree with anything you're saying. As far as I'm concerned, an 'off-the-beaten-track', 'non-mass-audience' use of De Frutos's piece is fine, even on Christmas Eve or Day.

The clarificartion that has been ptovided is rather exaggerated, I was talking about Freeserve which is not satelite, and Freesat, which is, but both are with restricted channels, and have a 9pm watershed,so do not show things like Sexcetra until very late at night at least 11pm.I still maintain that anyone can watch BBC4 with ease. They are not pay to view or subscription services, such as full satelite, with numerous channels showing a broad spectrum of subjects..

Thanks, nanarina. The Margo play is listed as "coming soon" on BBC Player. The focus seems to be on her relationship with Nureyev. Anne Marie Duff and Mihiel Huisman are Margo and Rudi. Derek Jacobi is Frederick Ashton, with Penelope Wilton as Fonteyn's mother, the Black Queen (BQ).

Details and photos/videos are here, but video doesn't seem to pay in our "area." This is sad, because it would have been fascinating to watch Jacobi dancing with Nureyev in the studio. The closeup photo of their heads is quite astonishing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00p510x

Thank you Bart for the link. I have just managed to get it to play. I am very interested in seeing this to see how authentic the actors are. So far Duff does not really register with me, but then who could play Margo, so many of the people who knew her are still alive. We will just have to wait and see. Enid Blyton the other woman who featured in this series seemed very convincing, and the programmes were excellent.

In the photos I've seen of Duff as Fonteyn, she (Duff) has zero turnout, and the BBC Four website manages to misspell her (Fonteyn's) name at least once:

Margot tells the story of one of the greatest dancers of our time, Dame Margot Fonteyne (Anne-Marie Duff), who claims to take her art more seriously than herself.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see, but so far I'm not encouraged.

It has just been advertised again on BBC 4, as "Part of the women we loved season" and

a repeat of the singer Gracey Fields has just come on which is also in the series.

I agree with kjw and in some ways with patrick posts about thr BBC's decisions concerning the De Frutos, and did make the same point myself about showing it at Christmas when the general public would be viwing.

But saying that, there is also another point to make, the BBC often broadcast a ballet at christmas, but it is usually something which would appeal to the general viewers or ballet lovers. It is broadcast in the afternoon of Christmas or Boxing day. Appart from that we do not get hardly any other programmes to enjoy. Even on BBC3 or 4 the amount of dance subjects are very limited.

I do not see them being able to put De Frutos on in the middle of the afternoon, as it's content would not be suitable, it would have to be at a later time. So it could have meant we had lost one of the valuable spaces they allocate to Dance.

When you consider the uproar and condemnation that Jonanthon Ross caused by his comments this year on his show, 0n TV , one cannot begin to imagine what this ballet would have put in motion.

Referring to the information how BBBC 4 is accessed

within a year, anyone will be able to receive this channel.in the UK. The analogue signal will be changed to digital, people will have to either obtain a new TV, or a digital box. With a freeview box you can obtain a large number of channels via the remote control, so BBC4 is not exclusive and has been available for a long time in many homes. It is as simple as changing the channel with a TV remote. Freesat, one of the many satelite systems is harder to obtain as yiou need a dish, but is on the same principal as Freeview you just buy it with a one off payment. The diffderence being with Sky, who can be connected with a subscription, or a one off payment now as well. It is very easy to use, even if you are partially sighted like I am myself.

And my grand children from 5-10 years can use my remote controls if I allow them to.

I totally agree with you, Music, History, Geography, are very poorly represented in todays curriculum at schools in general not just in dance establishments. The technical skills of computer studies, the three R's, reading, writing and arithmatic seem to prevail. By the time my youngest daughter went to school in the UK, although there was a choice to take these subjects the content had vbeen vastly reduced from when I myself went to school/college in the 1950's.

Here in England the young people miss out on learning in much detail the heritage of their national dances. Country dancing and Maypole sometimes rarely feature in middle/infants and junior schools up to the ager of 10/11. Even before they get to Secondary school, it is Disco's.

It seems awful that young people do not know the world atlas. there is no excuse really, as even if they are not taught at school this information is available on line. Does this confirm that their time is mainly used in playing computer games and watching TV? And in connection with dance of the world that is the least of their interests. Unless they are involved in the arts.

Thank goodness for the foresight of the BBC, what must be realeased is a lot of people are not so protetive of their rights. And are happy for cencwership/guidance in this type of situation. Why should we have to be faced with something which is obviously obscene. The BBC are usually very open minded in what they will broadcast, snd have the knowledge and wisdom of their responsibility to their viewing public. Why should a minor section of the public dictate to the majority. If to meet the demands of their right of freedom to watch and experience a free choice, it should be done by watching a DVD(if available) in the privacy of their own homes, or in live performance not on a TV broadcast around the time of a special holiday. Obviously this is my view

and I speak for myself only.

Mel, Intrigued by this subject I decided to do some reasearch on-line, I just could not see in plain talk, a connection between the Mazurka and Can Can, as you know. I looked up both in history of Dance sites and could not find any strong associations. What I did discover was a relationship between the Can Can(1822 France) a hybrid, with a Quadrille(1740)French) and a Polka(Czech)both origanating from an earlier dance that went back to the Eygyptians/Catatonians (high kicking steps and a TRIORI 1549. OF South Brittany. This was outlawed by 1830 as being immoral.

The only mention of a Mazurka was minute in connection (with a Alternante Polka Mazurka (Ladies Own) So the stronger links seem to be with the Polka's and Quadrile's (Millitary Male parade to start with).

The Traditional Marzurka seems to be entirely credited initially to Poland, and I have found no mention of the Can Can at all, it's structure has remained very true.

Known in Poland as the mazur and mazurek (smsll mazur) which in general terms means Polish Folk Dances. It originated in the plains of Mazova around Warsaw. The male population of the area were called Mazurs, and the dance has the same name. The dances are known abroad as Mazurka's, buth tthere are more than one type. mazur or mazurek, obertas or oberek, and the kujawiak from the neighbouring districtg of Kujawy. These dances are linked by a common rythmic and choreographic traits. The names are much younger the the actual dances, and probably came from another region.

The dances were known as early as the 16th century.

The introduction of the Marzurka to art music is usually credited to Chopin, but he was preceeded by maria szymanowska and others. Chopins borrowing from folk, urban or salon types have been discussed by scholars Certain melodic and other traits point to the close relationship with the Mazur type daces. Several stylised Mazurs of the nobility appear in stage productions Szymanowski and Maciejewski. Opera and ballet..There were also other Polish composers interested in Mazurka's Moniuszko, Tansman,

In America the Marzurka appeared in the 1840's , salon composers wrote the Marzurka's as dances associated with Poland and it's loss of independence or as fashionable dances dedicated to society ladies, In some varients the Marzurka is crossed with te Polka - a salon dance not it's folk counterpart. Janta lists in his 19th century study about 30 American/Polish Mazurka, describing them as "Russified The Mazourka the National Dance of Poland and was introduced into Russia and the Russian's subjected Poland.. Russian's dance or ratherr walk the Mazourka with a dignified air, but they lack the natural animation and graceful ease adapted by the Poles "1845 New York edition of A Set of Marzourka's and A set of Polka's by Coote and Glover.

In addition I looked up The Online ETYMOLOGY Dictionary but found no mention of Can Can in any form but I did find Mazurka..

research from: copyright PolishJazz.com. Courtesy The Polish Music Centre(USC)Marzurka) also Dance History Archives by StreetSwing.com (Can Can)

etymonline.com

Remember, music and dance get transplanted very quickly. J.S. Bach wrote polonaises, not just Chopin. Some dance etymologists trace the can-can to the mazurka!

Mel, I cannot quite see that one, Doing high kicks, jumping up in the air and ending up in the splits, doing a kind of Ronde de jambe held above the knee, in no way reminds me of the qualities in a Mazurka!!!

When one considers the music in National and Folk dance, it is often composed by the actual Native people themselves using simple instruments, long before it is updted or used in professional compositions.

Ian, there appears to have been a misunderstanding. My list of ballets was not intended to be exhaustive; I was merely naming some of the most well-known ones that require large amounts of un-balleticised character dancing. Obviously there are many more examples even beyond those you have listed, but there is no need to point out every single ballet that requires a few character steps or we would be picking at each other for years. My point is, and has been from the beginning, that although character dance is a necessary skill for ballet dancers to have, many of them do not have the training needed to do it well.

This is also my point as well Hans.

A French style Marzurka? Not a true Marzurka, a Choreographers take on the subject. If it was authebntic it would be danced by say Hungarian visiting guests at the wedding, wearing national costume.

then it could be considered authentic. The first Marzurka's came from Poland, and that is the ethnic connection.

Czardas the national dance of Hungary, originated from Gypsy music and dances, it also formed the basis for the Magyar Kor a ballroom dance favoured in Eastern Europe. It is performed as a dance for courting couples; and features alterations in tempo from slow to fast.

I do not agree that authentic dances should be altered to suit the audiences. Resulting in the original interpretation is gradually lost. What is more I do not think a western audience really knows what a true character dance is, they are mainly used to a Choreographers idea or whim. In saying that I do not hold any grudge, if it is because they have not had the opportunity to experience character dance in a true form. Neither can we really blame a choreographer or reperter if they are not conversant with it either. It comes down basically to a lack of experience and knowledge. Or they are just not interested in preserving the older traditional values.

I would very much like to suggest some Ballets for the members to be able to see what I am referring to, but this may take a little time for me to go through my large collection of DVD's as well as getting some new ones, to be able to complete this project. Then I will post my findings later for you all to compare and comment if you so desire. Hopefully you will probably have a collection of DVD's and video's you can use. It will be a good excuse to spend some more time than usual watching them.

Enjoy your interest in Dance Nanarina.