Colleen

Actually, S&P have not been perfectly gracious, stating several times that their program was 'perfect' and that 'everyone knew that they had won'. Those comments, quickly followed by "not to take anything away from the Russians", were inappropriate. It's one thing to say that there were disappointed in the result but to make a claim for perfection is a little much. And for people not trying to stir up more controversy or detract from other athletes, it seems S&P are on a few too many talk shows to accomplish that. Like the example stated above, if a principal was not given a role she thought she deserved and made several claims about her 'perfect technique' on several national/international programs this same ballet audience would be very critical of that dancer. The Russians have only appeared once, on Larry King last night, and I would describe them as grace under pressure. And two gold medals?? I agree that this is simply an attempt to put a quick to the scandal. And it's unfortunate that it turned out this way before a full, independent inquiry was completed and actual evidence of wrongdoing presented to the public.

Unbelievable that there is a tie for gold. They really need to fix this system. I remember how difficult it was to get Sylvie Frechette, a Canadain synchro swimmer, her gold that was unfairly denied her after a judge mistakenly entered her mark (1992 Olympics maybe). The judge entered 8.9 instead of 9.8 and did not notice until the marks were posted on the screen. He then immediately notified the referee that it was a mistake (all of the other judges had marks in the range of 9.7-9.9) but the result was deemed final. In this case there was no question at all of which performance had won. Sylvie didn't get her gold for years after. But there was no international outcry, just Canadian displeasure. Funny how quickly things can happen with public pressure.

Goebel's problem isn't the choreography because he has the best choreographer in the business, Lori Nicol, trying to help him out. It's all about his ability to perform. And I'm glad the judges didn't just hand over presentation marks for his lack of artistry as they sometimes do for a techinically packed program. I think they gave him the correct marks for artistry and still managed to give him the proper rank. Even though it was the best skate of his life it wasn't gold worthy given that a whole half of his program (the artistic half) isn't anywhere near the quality of the top 5 men. It's really nice to see great depth in both the men's and women's programs now. For a time it was an either/or situation but now both fields are jam packed with talented skaters, at least 4 or so of whom could win the competition on a given night. It's great to see such fierce competition.

That was an umbelievable long program tonight! Congrats to all of the men, especially the medal winners. And also to the judges for rendering the correct result .

And Ed it's okay to be critical of the Canadian broadcasting, it has its merits as well as demerits just as the US broadcasting does and you don't need to be a citizen to notice it . In the last couple of days I have wondered if the Olympics had been cancelled to give CBC more time to focus on Jaime and David! Yeah the public is interested but it's not the crime of the century that they didn't win gold and there are other Canadian athletes that we should be giving our support to as they begin competing. The CBC is giving this issue as much coverage as CNN gives national/international incidents. And given that no real facts have been uncovered in the 10min interval updates, it's beyond excessive.

The French and Italian teams didn't skate to potential in the Grand Prix final, and the Italians even slipped so the Canadian team won gold. So, the alledged pressure would be to ensure that result does not happen again. But if the French judge was 'pressured' why didn't she speak to the referee before the competition. And I find it wonderfully convenient that after the competition she's willing to tell all, presumably endagearing her job, the only reason I can find for her not speaking up before But truly, the Russian team only made one visible error and contrary to Jaime's overly-broadcasted opinion, the Canadian performance was great, but not flawless. But you don't need to be technically perfect in the LP to win the gold. Like I mentioned before you only need to think back to Oksana and Nancy to remember a case where a great, gold-medal worthy program (Kerrigan's) was defeated by one (Baiul's)with errors. And in that case there were a few errors and not-so-great choreography. And although Kerrigan was obviously upset there was no great public outcry, the US didn't file an appeal, and no one was trying to remove a gold medal from Oksana. And it was a case of Ukraine(aka part of that Soviet Machine that Costas so wanted to topple) vs USA. So why wasn't there a problem then when the 'scandal' should have been greater? For the exact reason that there is a scandal now. Oksana was a heart-warming 16yr old who won the crowd over. It was her 'spunk', not her program, that won her that gold. But because that's the type of thing audiences like no one really complained. Well, except Nancy of course. And here we have a similar situation. Even though the host of CNN's Talkback Live wrongly stated yesterday that Jaime and David were relative unknowns before Monday night (would it be that hard for CNN to educate their staff on the facts before allowing them on internationally broadcasted programs. calling the reigning world champs, undeafeated in 10 or so major competitions, unknown is a mark of great ignorance), we all know that for the last year or so they've been growing in public adoration. And there is already tendency for American/Canadian audiences to champion non-European skaters when at all possible (unfortunately for her they didn't really seem to like poor Nancy ). So all of that is fueling the great controversy over the fact that one of the two gold-capable programs (a comment made by the Canadian commentators) won. But to penalize the skaters in the event that official wrong-doing was proven (yes proven, not just alledged in the AP) would only add to a sad situation. Elena and Anton only made one mistake, the bobble on the double axel, they are not being accused of judge tampering. So to ban them from skating would be very unfair and wouldn't do anything to solve the problem of judging. And besides, removing all of the French and Russian skaters would get rid of a large proportion of the best international skaters. And that would only serve to make the competitions weak on talent and maybe give some Americans and Canadians shallow victories in Ice Dancing and Men's (the ladies competition is largely between the US and Russia and I think Michelle can beat Irina anyway ). If there is an actual problem then it needs to be fixed, but by addressing the conditions that allows judges to be influenced, not by punishing innocent skaters.

I agree that ballet is not the be all and end all of artistry, but there is a quality of expression in the face and body that Alexei, Todd etc. have that Elvis lacks. And there's no way you can equate Pluschenko's programs (esp. Michael Jackson) with ballet, but the way he delivers the program is superior to Elvis. And I don't even particularly like the Mike program, so I'm not speaking from an admirer's p.o.v. And a Chinese skater, Li Chengjiang, had a martial arts-inspired SP which was wonderfully presented and he got good marks for it. So I don't think the judges are necessarily predisposed to marking down non-balletic programs, I just don't think Elvis (generally) sells the program to the audience or the judges. He "stays within himself" a little too much. [ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Colleen ]

I feel the need to stick up for Shae-Lynn and Victor because I honestly believe that they were robbed of a medal in Nagano and at the World's (2yrs ago maybe) where there was actual physical evidence of judges' midconduct. I don't think there's any denying (and we've even discussed it on this forum) that ice dancing has big troubles where fairness is concerned. And I too am getting tired of Jaime and David's 'scandal'. If there is actual evidence of wrong doing I certainly hope it is brought to light. But until that day, I think it's rude and offensive to publicly claim that the medal is theirs.

Regarding B& S balletic style, as far as skating goes it's fantastic and head and shoulders above most of their competitors. ALL skaters do that weird sideways arabesque. In my entire life of watching figure skating, and I watch it fairly religiously, I have NEVER seen a skater with proper ballet placement. Even Michelle's much touted spiral, which I love, is lifted to the side with her hip up, not at all behind her. But since it's skating and not ballet no one really cares. They're just amazed that she can get her leg straight and high. And neither Jaime's nor Elena's throw landings were perfectly in control. Both of them did the same 'crisp' landing which to me indicated a lack of control. And there were other pairs in that last flight or two(esp. woman who had a light blue outfit, very flexible, can't remember what country) who landed in a nice plié that flowed for a couple of seconds afterwards, and therefore IMO were better than both Jaime and Elena. But it's the overall quality that counts I guess. And other things, like the breaking of the wrist, are most likely quite in keeping with the Russian ballet training that B&S received, this opinion gained from the small sample of Russian trained dancers I've seen at my studio. The three girls have many mannerisms in common, one of which is a more affected ports de bras than I'm used to seeing in RAD and I assume it's related to their training (grew up in Russia mostly). It's different than what I'm used to, but it isn't necessarily wrong, and in a skating arena a minute concern. Also, I find the question of story vs. 'plain' skating interesting. The Love Story program is indeed a story, and Jaime and David tell it well, but I don't agree that this is automatically better than a program that is lovely but doesn't show a range of emotions. Because at the last World's and more recently the Grand Prix final they did programs that were just lovely skating and didn't have the story aspect and weren't marked down for not showing a range of expression. And usually skaters pick a theme and carry it through a program anyway. Even Yagudin's fantastic Winter program is just pure enthusiam from start to finish. True he's supposed to be portraying a child's joy, but really, can anyone really say that 'child's joy' is so different from "i'm having fun performing". So I don't agree that the story that Jamie and David show is necessarily better than Elena and Anton's classical program. And with regard to the speed and edges etc. the Canadian commentators were very enthusiastic about these aspects of Elena and Anton's program and saw the 'tension' between them as a good thing, as a good connection rather than the indifference to each other that they sometimes/often show. And while Jaime and David's speed was good, it wasn't as good as the Russian's, even Barb and Paul admitted as much. So I think that, coupled with the more intricate footwork gave an edge to B&S in some judges' minds (well, 5 of them actually) I hope the men's long generates as much interest in skating, preferably positive . I think barring some catastrophe, Yagudin will win the gold, but it would be nice for Pluschenko and Honda to win the other two medals. I must say that I'm one of those who can't stand Goebel's lack of style and artistry and while I can commend his improvement I really don't think he deserves good presentation marks for simply skating better than he used to. I generally find his programs should receive the marks that Elvis Stojko used to get for presentation since they seem to have similar deficiencies. Judging seems to have gotten less severe in this respect, giving a good technical program decent presentation marks regardless of the stilted and awkward 'artistry'. If only the judges were former dancers...

Well skating does attempt to answer this dilemma by having the two categories of technical merit and presentation. The SP has required elements that you must execute cleanly to earn the points and it is very clear how marks are deducted (i.e. 0.3 lost for missing a jump). But for the long program there are only 'guidelines'. So like dirac mentioned, if you do 5 good triples or doubles you wouldn't be penalized per se, but if other people do 7 great triples your technical mark wouldn't be as high. But while the SP is the technical program, the LP is clearly the artistic program. And the fact that the LP is worth 2/3 of your overall score, it seems to me that the ISU also favours artistry. And the 'rule' is that a blunder in the LP that doesn't detract from the performance won't be reflected in the presentation mark, and therefore likely won't be reflected in the ordinals (although you could lose technical merit points for it). And, although it isn't always clear to the viewer, proper execution of jumps and spins is (usually) reflected in the marks. Certain jumps take off from an outside edge, others from an inside edge. So just as an examiner would mark you down for a pirouette from fifth that landed in third, a 'flutz' as Dick Button correctly tells us, is a similar mistake. And two-footing a landing is also bad, just like a spin that doesn't stay centered and travels across the ice (see tonight's men's programs--good spins Tood Eldridge, bad spins--most competitors ranked lower than 5th). And damnit 'layback' spins are attitude turns and the leg should be supported and turned out not dangling! A noodle like layback should lose at least 0.5 IMO Whew, that was long! I personally feel that all things being nore or less equal (technically), artistry, nice lines, good edges etc. should win out, even if a program has lots of sentimental value (of course i wasn't referring to any program in particular ).

But we have to remember that even a seasoned eye won't see what a judge's eye will. And perhaps there were things that an amateur won't consider, like speeed, that will influence a judge's choice of first place. And as this was the LP, artistry over technique was favoured and it has often happened that a technical mistake has not cost a pair or single skater the gold (Oksana Baiul immediately comes to mind). And even this Canadian can admit that as engaging as Love Story is, the sheer artistic talent of the Russians is better than that of the Canadians. And in the end it's a judgment call, do you like dancer X's technique-artistry over dancer y's artistry-technique? I think it was a greater 'mistake' that Ina and Zimmerman were in 5th largely because they skated so early in the evening. I thought they were possibly even better than the Chinese pair given their (the Chinese) not-so-great showing last night. But what do I know p.s. Maybe we should start a new thread for each of the discipline's?

Wow, I'm impressed that someone remembers Tai and Randy! The sign of a true skating fan

Unfortunately Plushenko won't be at the Euros due to an injury, so we won't be treated to that Russian rivalry until the Olynpics. I would love to know if he's actually hurt or not risking losing any more momentum to Yagudin before the Games. But I like him, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt . Regarding Ice Dancing, I do regard it as a legitimate sport because their footwork and lifts require amazing degrees of techinicality and the quality of their skating is judged harshly. By that I mean the same way dancers judge clean, turned out pirouettes vs. multiple, badly executed spins, ice dancers are judged on the quality and degree of their edges etc. So in this sport it's not enough to throw your leg in the air for a spiral, it actually has to look nice and be technically difficult to gets points. But unlike other categories of figure skating it seems to suffer more from unfair judging. Anissina and Peizerat (and others) have obviously missed steps (a sin equivalent to falling on your bum several times) and still won competitions while other couples have skated cleanly. And this last Grand Prix is the only competition that I've ever seen where obvious mistakes have been penalized. That is my one great criticism of Ice Dance over pairs or singles: unknown skaters can come up and win or place well in the latter categories but ice dancing seems to require an established reputation for a team to do well. But hopefully there will be a trend now towards fairness rather than favouritism.

But the SP is the technical program where you are required to do a specific set of jumps, spins etc. and are marked down severely if you don't. And the LP is the artistic program where you should do some of the same techinical stuff, but you can still fall on your bum and win because the emphasis is on your presentation of the work. That's why Todd Elderidge, as long as he completes all of his jumps, can beat Goebel, because of his style and grace, but he most likely can't beat Yagudin because Yagudin has an amazing 50/50 combo of techinical prowess and brilliant artistry. And usually unless Michelle falls to pieces she does out-skate her other competitors because she can jump but the jumping looks like a part of the overall 'dancing' rather than her skating looking like a series of jumps strung together with footwork. And Maria Butyrskya isn't always smiling because she's usually not coming through on her performance. Back in 1999 (i think) at the World's when Michelle messed up and Maria was the next closest competition and therefore won the gold I can tell you that she certainly was grinning from ear to ear during that performance. I think that's a really interesting comment/question about pairs skating, because the connection between the couple is really important. When Anton and Elena weren't on good terms it was quite evident in their skating and they weren't winning like they usually did, and when Sale and Pelletier skate Love Story well it's a wonderful sight. And often teams that don't do the romantic stuff or at least do something where their acting comes into play, they sort of plateau. The top Chinese team Shen and Zhao doesn't really do a lot that requires an obvious connection between the skaters beyond the technical elements and they have never gotten past 3rd in an international competition (where all of the top teams were present). So maybe the pas de deux feeling is necessary.

Wow, I thought that I was going crazy re:Sarah Hughes, but I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who isn't crazy about her skating. I find her incredibly awkward to watch, with her jumping ability her only saving grace. I find her footwork decent but her upper body positions painful, and her bent knee and dog-at-fire-hydrant leg in her spirals make me cringe (they all do that to some extent, but her's are particularly ecarté while she's supposed to be in arabesque). When she first came on the scene 3 years ago I was really excited to see such a nice crop of young skaters, and although she's progressed a great deal I find it's only been in one area--athletic not artistic. I've been watching skating for a really long time and I totally agree with a previous post, she's perhaps in the same league as Midori Ito, Suriya Bonally, Irina Slutskaya (more in the past than lately) but she's certainly not the next Ekaterina Gordeeva, Kristy Yamaguichi, Michelle Kwan or the budding Sasha Cohen. IMO, I think you should have to have a 50/50 combo or close to it to win major competitions which is why the LP is worth so much.

Another thing to add to the mix is the fact that teachers generally make their students start all exercises with either the left hand or the right hand on the barre as a rule. In RAD exercises almost always start with the right foot (I honestly can't think of ever starting an exercise with the left foot in my many years of dance), so for most dancers you learn an exercise on your dominant side. So the theory (I read this somewhere) is that if you always learn exercises initially on your dominant side, you will tend to be stronger on that side in general. I am right handed and I do most things better with my right leg as the supporting leg, so I turn better CCW en dehors but I turn better CW en dedans for example.

Karen Kain is generally considered to be the best classical ballerina that Canada has ever produced. It's kind of sad that she isn't more renowned world wide.