nanushka

Helene, and others, have explained well and thoroughly why the Big Lie by which you set such store is disputable. You say that you "await specifics." In this thread, and in the old Copeland threads, it seems to me that we are up to the wazoo with specifics.

nanushka, perhaps you are coming a bit late to the party. I suggest respectfully that you may wish to review, if you have not already done so, the Copeland threads in the "Dancers" forum, where you will find many of the same points raised here hashed (and rehashed) over.

Possibly the solution is to have a "Misty Copeland is a Big Honking Liar" thread where the like-minded can congregate to discuss her personal and professional shortcomings.

I think you are assuming that those of us who approach Misty and her story with an attitude of skepticism -- not in the sense of disbelief or suspicion, but in the sense of questioning and agnosticism -- are in fact extremists in opposition to your views, believers in the statement that "Misty Copeland is a Big Honking Liar." I would not have an interest in such a discussion among "the like-minded," and when I have encountered such I've found it tiresome. If you read what I have written upthread I think you will see that I am not of a settled mind when it comes to many things Misty. Based on my first-hand experience of seeing her dance, I do not think that she deserves promotion at this time. But this discussion has not primarily been about that question, nor was it ever (I think, based on its topic) intended to be primarily about that question. There are many other issues surrounding this individual that are interesting and, I think, worthy of discussion -- and on many of those issues, my mind is not at all settled or made up.

Who goes around claiming to be the first at something without having tried to figure out if they were?

I think this gets to the crux of the issue. I said upthread that I wasn't convinced she was lying. But this is the point that leaves me unconvinced she was not lying. A definitive claim without any due diligence done to ascertain its truth -- that seems problematic to me.

If ABT did not make the first black soloist part of its ongoing narrative, for examply, why would she know. What she did know was that there were any black faces at ABT when she became interested in ballet and when she joined ABT.

Again, a point that I think is a very good one. I still don't see how she would get from this lack of knowledge to making a definitive statement like the one she made in the 2008 interview. That leap seems problematic to me.

There are very few places where dancers are steeped in dance history.

Doesn't the very act of making the statement -- ""They've never had a black woman make it past the corps de ballet" -- suggest that one has looked into the history?

I was clearly responding to kfw's summary of his thoughts, which he expressed differently.

I don't have an issue with multiple factors being taken into consideration when a promotion is made. I think there is a credible, alternate narrative to "Because she's waged a PR campaign that includes the hot-button issue of race, the only reason she'll be promoted is because McKenzie has caved into the pressure."

I agree with what you say here, but I also don't see anything in kfw's posts that contradicts this. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Obviously, I'm not dirac, but I would say specifically that one thing I would dispute is your characterization, which leaves out how much more than her description of racism she encountered is part of her narrative, which is wider-reaching and more subtle.

I don't see how this is "left out" in kfw's post, the one that I think was mainly under dispute here. I emphasize in bold below:

My point was that “lots of other people have done it” is no defense. One doesn’t need to have seen someone dance to know a PR offensive that includes accusations of racism and a false claim to singularity is an appeal to something besides merit, or to know that accusations of racism and racial groundbreaking are highly effective today.Copeland may have earned a promotion solely on merit (i.e. in McKenzie’s opinion may deserve it), but now we’ll never know. I think that’s unfortunate.

What exactly in this post is being disputed?

Any reports on Thomas Forster's Purple Rothbart Tuesday night? Would love to hear how that went. Thanks!

Here's what I'm having some trouble following -- and what I think kfw was asking dirac about as well. kfw wrote (addressing dirac):

Well, the accusations are a matter of record and the PR campaign is a matter of record, so I’m not sure exactly what you dispute.

To clarify, kfw had previously written, "One doesn’t need to have seen someone dance to know a PR offensive that includes accusations of racism and a false claim to singularity is an appeal to something besides merit..."

To the above-quoted post, dirac responded:

I think there's been plenty of disputation of just those things going on, or have I missed something on these two long threads?

What are the "just those things" that are being disputed here? That's what I think kfw was asking, and what dirac's latest post does not really make clear to me.

Two others:

Brahms-Haydn Variations (have seen only once, the last time they did it, and remember really liking it -- loved getting to see so many principals and soloists in one piece)

Birthday Offering (have never seen)

Of course that's not a correction per se, of any earlier misstatements (or whatever you want to call them) given to any specific publications or made during any interviews.

No, but it's something. Thanks for the info.

And, also, does the misstatement appear in her book? Because that should have been fact-checked. (But we all know that doesn't happen so much nowadays.)

I'm not convinced she was lying, but what I'd be interested to know is, having (mistakenly or deceitfully) made that a part of her narrative, has she ever later acknowledged the truth? I don't know the timeline of when people began pushing back on the idea that she was the first -- and whether, for instance, her 2012 Glamour interview came after that or not. Is there anything in the public record about her correcting this often-made (by her and others) assertion about her?

Good observation nanushka as I feel likewise all these years, after missing Matthews, Kajiya and Messmer to name a few, fortunately they have stuck with doing what they love and finally got to where they should have been with the ABT. I really hope the trend will not increase, as we have lost so many of our favorites already, I hope they will wake up and not let the talents get stuck, or I am almost certain this trend will continue in the worse way. Let's not forget Stella again!!!

Joseph Phillips is another who has, reportedly, done great work elsewhere.

I thought Paulina was one of the shorter corp member.

I could well be wrong. She looked to be about the same height as Melanie Hamrick last night, whom I've always thought of as taller than average (though definitely smaller than Veronika).

I might be mistaken but last year, Corey was just coming back after a severe injury.

Yes, that's correct. Cory hadn't danced much at all the whole Met season; SL was the same week last year as this year. His first performance in SL last year was with Veronika, and he performed again later that week. People reported that his second performance (which I did not see) was much more dramatically engaged than his first.

Also, nice to hear about the pairing of Waski and Hamrick working out well...

They made a very nice pair, especially with Veronika's Odette, as they are both rather tall and have similar dancing styles, it seemed.

This was #8 or 9 of Veronika's Swan Lakes for me as well -- I think year 8, but probably the 9th one, since she did two the year she filled in (for whom? I forget) with David Hallberg. Of those, I agree that it was a highlight -- probably not the best, in my eyes, but certainly very, very fulfilling.

Backing up, though. I could tell from the moment that Cory came on stage that this was going to be a different show from last year's. Two years ago I was finally mostly satisfied with his performance opposite Veronika, but then last year was a big let-down. He seemed to me to be a complete blank. But last night was much different. He entered spirited and engaged with the entire corps.

Now, there was a problem here, and this portrayal was not really coherent in the context of this particular production. One thing that I dislike about McKenzie's Swan Lake is that it seems to confine Siegfried to one particular interpretation -- the outsider, estranged from the court, as exemplified when he has no one to dance with and almost runs back into the castle. So there was kind of a disconnect between Cory's performance at the start of Act I and what came later as the act progressed. I'd prefer to see a production that could accommodate a variety of interpretations -- including, for instance, a youthful, carefree Siegfried who doesn't want to be tied down but then is struck with passion when he meets Odette.

Still, at least acting was happening last night, even if it didn't seem wholly coherent. Whereas last year Cory couldn't have cared less about the crossbow or what his mother was telling him or anything much else onstage, last night he was dramatically present. And his dancing seemed to me as beautiful as it's always been in past years. He has a gorgeous arabesque, one that just stretches out into space in both directions. And his landings are as clean and soft as can be; I was very close and hardly heard a thing.

I was really hoping for the "dream-cast" (at least nowadays) PDT of Gorak, Lane and Brandt from Monday night, since I knew they hadn't danced it at the matinee, but I was pleased to see we'd get Zhiyao Zhang, Luciana Paris and Cassandra Trenary as a nice back-up. They started off very well, but then things began to go a bit downhill in the variations. Luciana's seemed quite good to me, though Cassandra's dancing was even more spirited and engaging. She was really connecting with those around her (corps and Prince) even while dancing her variation. Still, it was a bit sloppy toward the end. Zhang was quite good in his variation but ran out of space at the rear of the stage at one key point and sort of had to ad lib a bit. The coda was messy as well. So still a work in progress, but I agree that Trenary is one to watch -- and I've felt the same about Zhang since at least last year.

Cygnettes were Elina Miettinen, Skylar Brandt, Sarah Lane and Mai Aihara. They did very well, were pretty much in sync, mostly clean. Still, they lagged in the first 4 bars at the repeat of the music's 'A' section -- which is where ABT cygnettes always seem to fall behind. (I think I've only once seen them keep up at that point in the music. Don't recall who it was, but a few years back.) They need to be drilled harder on that bit.

Paulina Waski and Melanie Hamrick were indeed the big swans, and danced very well, both of them. It was nice to see Melanie Hamrick back onstage.

As for Veronika. Gorgeous as always, but finally with a partner who could meet her halfway and allow her to luxuriate in the role without having to carry the performance all on her own. What can I say that hasn't been said before? The feet, the legs, the arms, the back, the hands -- all fully engaged, fully controlled, and yet fully expressive of beauty and pathos in her role. Four or five years ago she finally seemed to overcome the technical inconsistencies that had hobbled her at times -- though even before that point, I was fully won over by her dancing in other ways. A few years ago she probably reached her peak, and we're perhaps a bit beyond that now -- the extensions (particularly to the side) are no longer so luxuriant, and the back is a bit less flexible, I think. And yet her expressive characterization through dance just keeps getting better. (And, on the technical side, supported pirouettes seemed even better last night than before. And the lifts were quite solid. Nicely done, Cory.)

Veronika's Odile last night was particularly revelatory. I've always loved her characterization here, even when the technique has been lacking. (And let's face it, we don't go to see Veronika with the same expectations we have for a Gillian. Single fouettés straight through, but very cleanly done; they traveled straight downstage, which I'm fine with, even if it's not ideal; at least there was no veering off to one side.) But last night was a perfect mixture of seductiveness and pleasure -- Odile's own pleasure, that is, in her seduction of Siegfried. There was no apparent evil -- after all, this Odile is capable of keeping that perfectly hidden, until the very last moment of revelation.

And then there was Marcelo. Wow. I think he really outdid himself last night. If Marcelo is the definitive Purple VR (and he is), this may have been his definitive performance. He still has all the moves -- the arabesque on demi-pointe was great, and he commanded the entire stage throughout the solo portion (second half) of the variation. And his interactions with the princesses were almost indecent -- particularly as, at some point throughout the piece, he came very close to the face of each one, almost for a passionate kiss, but left each one longing for what he was withholding. As I mentioned before, his eyes were incredibly dynamic. Again, this may have been enhanced by my nearness to the stage, but I felt his face must really be projecting to the last row of Family Circle. It was an overwhelming performance. I hope he continues to dance this role for many years to come, even after he retires his leading roles.

Before moving on to Act IV, I'll mention that Gabe Stone Shayer and Jonathan Klein were the Neapolitans. I don't recall having seen (or at least having noticed) the latter in anything before, but he did well for an obviously young and relatively inexperienced dancer. I've seen bigger problems in this number from senior corps members and even soloists in the past. Klein's only major problem was that he was consistently behind Shayer and the music almost the whole time. But the dancing looked promising. Perhaps another one to watch out for.

Act IV was more satisfying than it usually is in this production, particularly because of the total engagement of both Veronika and Cory. The moment when Odette mimes that her heart has been broken was, indeed, heartbreaking; and the moment after, when she gestures to keep Siegfried away from her, was filled with desolation, for both these characters.

Cory's leap off the cliff was just about perfect, I think -- a visually impressive moment, but not one that seemed to provoke applause or that seemed to be striving to impress. So, satisfying, but still in keeping with the tragic ending.

Finally, I have to commend Thomas Forster for his performance particularly in this final act. Usually, once Odette and Siegfried are gone, I'm just left twiddling my thumbs until the final tableau. But he was totally captivating in that last minute or two. Even with all that silly costuming, he came across as fully human here in his agony and defeat.

A fantastic night!

I loved that in one of the curtain calls, when Marcelo was standing next to a corps swan, and the curtains were closing, he wrapped her up in his cloak. He's so fun as the baddies!

Yes! Another example: as Carabosse, when he got wheeled on in Act III for the wedding, he made a threatening gesture toward Florestan, who had to take a moment to put Carabosse in her place. The fact that Marcelo made something of what could have been a total non-moment was great to see. (Craig Salstein, by contrast, was completely still when wheeled on -- don't remember about Nancy Raffa, but certainly nothing she did there caught my eye.) He's such a delight!

Both Veronika and Marcelo, by the way, got bouquets thrown from the audience.

I was at the Part/Stearns/Gomes Swan Lake last night and it was a wonderful performance. I'll write more later, but let me just say briefly that I am finally fully resigned to the fact that Cory is now Veronika's regular home-team partner. I have been very critical of his performances with her in the past -- especially last year, when I felt that he was pretty much a total blank. This was always a disappointing partnership in my eyes, as I have many fond memories of seeing Veronika dance with Marcelo especially, as well as with Roberto Bolle that one year. I have always been impressed by Cory's dancing and partnering on a technical level, but he never seemed to project much character, and I always felt that Veronika -- such a passionate, engaged and engaging dancer -- deserved more. Well, last night he changed my mind. He was fully invested in the role and in the performance, and there were many fine nuances of character throughout. Given that the Marcelo-Veronika pairings are likely a thing of the past, I can live with this partnership going forward. It was a very satisfying performance. Thank you, Cory, for finally giving it your all!

And having Marcelo there to play Purple Rothbart was just icing on the cake! I feared going in that I'd spend the whole evening wishing that Cory and Marcelo would just trade places, but the casting seemed just right. Marcelo was perhaps better than I've ever seen him in this role, particularly in terms of characterization. The way he used his eyes throughout the Act III scene -- evil, seductive, cunning, amused -- was just a pleasure to behold!

I was there, I didn't see it as a choice per se, in the sense of an artistic decision made ahead of time, but I saw it as a pretty "flawless," if one can use that word, cover for something going "not right."

Did she intend to do the fouettés or hope to? I think/assume so. But she had a backup plan if they didn't and executed it well. I have seen people mess up the fouettés and basically crash and burn...falling out of them and then standing there stunned for the rest of the music. I've seen people gut their way through them all, but so poorly that they looked awful and you were chewing your fingernails off wondering if they were going to land on their ass.

She did neither. Was it disappointing, well yeah a bit. But it was preferable to other things I've seen and it was just a few minutes of a very nice performance.

Thank you, aurora -- that's exactly the sort of "middle-road" approach to the issue that I had in mind.

I love the idea of a feeder vs a destination company. I'd never thought about it that way before. I agree that ABT has been a destination company but this has changed somewhat over the years and will continue to change as the reputations of companies like PNB, SFB and others grow. I guess what I'm saying is that ABT is still a destination company but it is not as much a first prize as it used to be.

And it's one thing for ABT to be a destination company for principals and soloists, as Helene's data shows that it still is. But is it as much of a draw for corps dancers from outside? (I don't know -- genuine question.) And in thinking about the term "feeder" company, I have in mind what's happened to a lot of promising soloists whom we've seen leave in recent years. Dancers who have risen up from corps to soloists, gotten stuck, and left. I'd be curious to know whether that trend has increased over time, or if it's just always been a part of what happens and I've only recently become more aware of it.

Sara Mearns failed to execute the 32 fouettés in her first performance, opting for 16 and then a pique circle after. I didn't hear anyone complaining then, and it certainly didn't hurt her career. I think it's silly that that one component of a near three hour ballet could ruin a performance, but maybe that's just me.

I completely agree, but I don't think one should jump to the other extreme and proclaim that switching from fouettés to pirouettes halfway through was an interpretive choice on Misty's part and that there were therefore no flaws at all worth mentioning. We need to try to be as honest and objective as we can when evaluating a performance, however impossible that may in fact be. I find it hard to believe that a soloist aiming for principal and performing O/O for the first time on the Met stage would be capable of doing 32 fouettés and yet choose not to. Bad optics. it seems far more likely that she was unable to and chose to finish in a way that worked best for her. Fine. Does that make the performance execrable? Certainly not. Let's take a middle road here.

No. Copeland chose to perform the piques at the halfway point, as Plisetskaya and Kistler did.

It was an extraordinary TOTAL PRIMA PERFORMANCE. I've never heard such energy for a Prima before, except for Alonso in the day.

Changing fouettés to piques is far better than bombing the Rose Adagio, as recently happened to a slighter soloist.

I'm curious to know which soloist you think "bombed" the Rose Adagio.

Does this performance indicate that she has earned her promotion on merit, not just on self-promotion and audience building (I understand her performances were sold out early)?

Getting only halfway through the fouettés does not sound promising, though like all things Copeland I'm sure opinions in response to your question will be quite mixed. Don't expect a consensus to be reached anytime soon!

Kudos too to Zhurbin's purple Rothbart!

Zhurbin danced purple Rothbart?! If so, that's great news, and wish I could have seen it!

What happened to Hammoudi, though?

It is a destination company and has been for a long time: just off the top of my head, Makarova, Fracci, Baryshnikov, Bruhn, Godunov, Ananiashvili, Vishneva, Bocca, Careno, Corella, Stiefel, Simkin, Cornejo, Gregory, Orr, Marks, Lander, Bolle, Semionova, Whiteside, McKerrow, Renvall, Radojevic, van Hamel, why even Kevin McKenzie. All danced in other companies, leaving from all ranks and joining at all ranks.

As frustrating as McKenzie's casting and promotion practices have been, 7/10 Soloists and 4/16 Principals hail from the Studio Company, and three more Principals joined as corps and were promoted through the ranks during his tenure.

Sorry, my point was more a rhetorical one, and more about the recent past and present (not the time of Makarova, Fracci, Baryshnikov, et al). I was referring to the fact that every Met season now seems to end with a bunch of departures of very promising dancers to greener pastures. Perhaps that's the way it's always been, but I'm more aware of it now.