silvy Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 I wanted to post this in the "Raymonda" forum, but it is closed -that is why I am posting it here. I would like to know why being Raymonda of French royalty (as I read in the forum I mentioned above), does she do all those "czardas - Hungarian" arms in her third act variation (the wedding one- the one with the million pas de bourres). Is there any hint in the libretto, or something? I am most curious!! silvy Link to comment
Alexandra Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Yes, we've moved the Raymonda forum to the Archives, but it's fine to have more discussion! The Hungarian dancers are in honor of Prince Andrew of Hungary (I believe a real person). I think Raymonda is Hungarian and has traveled to France, to the court of her cousin, for the wedding. Prince Andrew was one of the heroes of the Crusades -- I forget whether he was related to Raymonda or not. Someone must know! Regarding the choreography, "Raymonda" is the one (some would say perfect) example we have of Petipa's way of providing variety in dance. The first act is classical, the second character, and the third combines character arms with classical technique, producing semi-character classical dancing. Link to comment
silvy Posted June 5, 2003 Author Share Posted June 5, 2003 thank you very very much, Alexandra. I think that this is the key to many parts in the ballet (the maids finesse, for instance, and the "prelude et la Romanesque" section, which somehow reminds me of French troubadors). I remember that once I saw a video in which Alicia Alonso said that a dancer should get as much information as possible about the ballet she/he is about to dance. And I know that this is not always the case - I have talked to dancers in companies who do not have a clue what they are dancing!!! That is why I value information such as the one you have just given. thanks again silvy Link to comment
Marc Haegeman Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Like Alexandra said, Andrew (or Andreas) II, King of Hungary, is a historical person, early 13th century, one of the leaders (Alexandra, I wouldn't exactly use the word "heroes" in the context of the Crusades, though ) of the Vth Crusade. His brother-in-arms Jean de Brienne seems also to have been a real person. The story of Raymonda is located in the Provence, in southern France, which provides a link with the troubadour figures Bernard and Béranger, the two friends of Raymonda. The last Act takes place in the Provence as well, but is an homage to the Hungarian guest, King Andrew (whom in reality was beaten during the Crusades and made a far less glorious return home). Interesting to know that Petipa initially wanted to locate the 2nd Act in Cordoba or Granada, in the Arabian conquered part of Spain, where he could place all the oriental dances. Link to comment
Alexandra Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Marc, I think in the world of the ballet, he was a "hero" -- getting beaten didn't seem to matter much. If we're going to get politically revisionist Raymondas (King Andrew, imperialist butcher of the saracens) it might open more doors and windows than the ballet can sustain. I think Mel wrote something about King Andrew the last time his name came up-- I hope he'll see this thread. I'm sure he'll know the military history Link to comment
Mel Johnson Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Yes, both Andrew II of Hungary and Jean de Brienne, Crusader King of Jerusalem, were historical personages. Most productions make King Andy a large, imposing, elderly warrior, while the real one was short, skinny, and tended to be sickly, and when he went on Crusade, his nobles thought they would never see him again. When he came back, it turned out that the Holy Land had agreed with him, and he was much better than he had been. (His army wasn't, but he was) He made a whole bunch of reforms in Hungarian government, subscribing to the Golden Bull, and also kicked the Germans out of Hungary. He was also the father of Saint Elizabeth of Hungary. Jean de Brienne was about thirty years OLDER than King Andy, and mostly hung around Constantinople. Now, I had to look this up, because I could remember that he'd been married twice, but now I see he was married THREE times, (to Mary of Montferrat, Stephanie of Armenia, and Berengaria of Castile) Not a Raymonda in the bunch. Link to comment
Alexandra Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Thanks, Mel! I wonder what ever happened to that glorious ballet, "Berengaria de Castille"? Link to comment
silvy Posted June 6, 2003 Author Share Posted June 6, 2003 What ballet is "Berengaria de Castille"? silvy Link to comment
Alexandra Posted June 6, 2003 Share Posted June 6, 2003 None! That was a joke -- read Mel's post about the real wives of Jean de Brienne Link to comment
silvy Posted August 11, 2003 Author Share Posted August 11, 2003 Raymonda's two female friends (or whatever!) I was wondering about R's "friends". They appear in two Bolshoi video versions of Raymonda (one starring Semenyaka , the other Bessmertnova). I would like to have more info about them (who they really are in the ballet's libretto - if "maids of honour", if royal princesses, or whatever), as I believe their dances are one of the finest of the ballet (I intend to dance one of them at my next guest appearance, so I would welcome as much information as possible) thanks in advance! silvy Link to comment
Mel Johnson Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Given Raymonda's deferential attitude toward her aunt, the Countess de Doris, it looks to me as though Raymonda herself is at most a viscountess, or at least some kind of worthy heiress, to allow her to be eligible for marriage to Jean de Brienne, who, if you'll recall, was a king, not just another handsome knight-errant. So I'd say that princesses royal were out. They might be lesser nobility or gentry with some kind of court function and title, but actually do no work, other than keep their mistress company. "Friends" is about the best term for them. Link to comment
doug Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 According to the list of characters in the affiche of the first performance, Clemence and Henriette are "girlfriends of Raymonda." In the libretto, they are referred to as Raymonda's "closest friends." Raymonda herself is the "Countess of Doris," and her aunt, the Countess Sybille, is a "canoness." Link to comment
Mel Johnson Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 So the castle is Raymonda's? A canoness would be in orders, and under the big three, poverty, chastity and obedience. That first would mean "no real estate". But as to the Friends, they're still just assorted courtiers. Link to comment
doug Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 Maybe Raymonda was in some guardianship sort of arrangement prior to marriage? Just a shot in the dark ... But it does appear from the original scenario that the castle is hers. Nevertheless, she still takes guidance from Aunt Sybille. Link to comment
Mel Johnson Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 Heaven forbid that a ballet plot should actually make historical sense, but if this were 13th-century France, then the Salic Law was in full force, which had, as one of its amusing curlicues, the inability of most women to inherit property in their own right. They might be able to inherit titles, but absolutely no land or wealth of their own. There were exceptions, like Eleanor of Aquitaine, who as a Dowager Queen of France had her own prestige and claims on French sovereignty, despite the letter of the law. That's one of the things that helped kick off Henry V's campaign in France which ended in Agincourt. So maybe the castle is under the patronage of Jean de Brienne, or King Andy, or even the King of France, with the ladies just living there, having the enjoyment of the property, and on an annuity. But the Friends are still just the Friends. Link to comment
silvy Posted August 12, 2003 Author Share Posted August 12, 2003 thanks everybody!!!!! I guess I shall have to leave my tiara out for Henriette or Clemence!!! Is there any reference in the libretto to Raymonda's father? There is no male elderly figure there, right? Only young men!!!!! silvy Link to comment
R S Edgecombe Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Did Lydia Pashkova write the libretto from scratch, or did she base it on one of her novels? I seem to have read contradictory accounts in this regard, but I'm not sure. And could one of our Russian members (Mikhail, are you reading this?) please give us some idea of her literary reputation in Russia. I have never been able to find her in any reference books I've consulted. Was she a trashy writer like Marie Corelli, or a semi-respectable one like Walter Scott? Link to comment
silvy Posted September 3, 2003 Author Share Posted September 3, 2003 About "dream sequence" in Raymonda (or nightmare? - when Abderakman appears) I am somehow confused as to whose choreography is the variation danced by Raymonda in Boshoi versions on video (Semenyaka and Bessmertnova). Is it original Petipa? Or is it really Grigorovich's work? Because I know that the music of this solo does not belong to Glazunov's "Raymonda", but to "Scenes de ballet" by the same composer,so I thought maybe someone (not Petipa) might have introduced the change there. Anyone knows? silvy Link to comment
rg Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 doug fullington knows RAYMONDA pretty much inside-out, so, w/ any luck, he'll answer your query. whatever other information that might around regarding the choreography of the dream scene, doug might well know if there was an interpolation from 'scenes de ballet' in petipa's ballet. if not, one we can assume this solo is by other hands. gorsky did a prod. and is credited i believe for select parts of soviet ballet restagings of petipa's production particularly for the pas d'action for raymonda, jean, abder-akhman, and the two demi-couples. here are some credits for the gorski & grigorovich productions, alas there is no mention in these listings of any interpolations: Raymonda Chor: Aleksandr Gorski after Marius Petipa; mus: Aleksandr Glazunov; scen: Konstantin Korovin & Aleksandr Golovin; cos: Konstantin Korovin. First perf: Moscow, Bolshoi Theater, Nov 30, 1908.//Revival: Feb 18, 1918; Oct 12, 1933. Raymonda Chor: Yuri Grigorovich after Alexander Gorski and Marius Petipa; mus: Alexander Glazunov; lib: Larissa Pashkova and Marius Petipa revised by Grigorovich; scen & cos: Simon Virsaladze. First perf: Moscow (?), Bolshoi Theater (?), June 29, 1984; Bolshoi Ballet. Link to comment
doug Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Yes, the waltz variation that Raymonda dances in the vision scene was interpolated into the 1898 premiere of Raymonda. The music is indeed from Glazunov's Scenes de ballet and was arranged into a short variation. In the Raymonda piano score at the Harvard Theatre Collection, the two-violin rehearsal repetiteur of this added variation is inserted as the third variation. So, Petipa never choreographed the third variation Glazunov wrote for that scene, but Balanchine choreographed it for Raymonda Variations. The Mazurka in Act III was also interpolated from Scenes de ballet. Link to comment
silvy Posted September 4, 2003 Author Share Posted September 4, 2003 Thanks Doug!!! And then, what about the actual choregraphy as danced by the Bolshoi in the videos I mentioned? Is this choreography by Petipa, or by Yuri Grigorovitch????? Do you know? silvy Link to comment
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