SanderO

Can some provide a good definition of "line".... please. I can't find it... but I have seen the word used here and have gathered the meaning from context. This is clearly a word with a very specific meaning in ballet. no?

Even the notion of proportion of the human form is rather vague. We tend to find long legs and shorter torsos more attractive than the reverse. Why this is so is hard to rationalize, yet our eyes get trained, most probably by the media and the images we are bombarded with.

The average male finds larger breasts as more attractive in a female along with a curvy silhouette a la Pam Andersen. I would think most ballet dancers and balletomanes find that form disproportionate and less appealing aesthetically and would find a lithe dancer's body to be more the ideal.

The term "line" is also unclear in my mind as I am not sure it it refers to a static image... as in a single frame captured form a movement.. or is in fact the entire movement. I would think it is the latter and this is where line might intersect with musicality, ie where the dancers movements are so perfectly in tune/timing and coordinated with the rhythm and tempo of the music... that it seems to flow right through their body in perfect synchronicity. So it's not JUST seeing the movement, but hearing music AND seeing the movement.

You could be deaf and love ballet, because of the visual aspect alone. But with the music it takes on a whole other dimension. So is the term "line" used absent music... and even absent movement, or does it include movement and music?

Help!!!!!!!!!!!!

This reminds me of judging a dog show where some standard is defined as "perfect". ICK for humans and it is weird enough for animals. Wasn't this called eugenics?

I am not terribly experienced in these things, but I have seen many dancers which look balanced, proportioned and in control of their bodies. I suppose they have gotten onto a stage because they have all the right stuff and the differences are often pretty subtle... but they do exist. But that makes it interesting doesn't it?

I would think that unless these so called "standards" are defined it is largely a matter of taste and may change over time and will vary from individual to individual observer.

Look at classical sculpture to see who our concept of beauty has evolved.

I find most dancers exquisite and that is fine with me.

overpaid for their level of talent

I will admit to be rather in awe at how some of the principals manage to move in such amazing synchronicity to the flow of the music.... not unlike watching a conductor "gesture" the music... but a thousand times better of course. If this kind of synchronicity is musicality, obviously some dancers have a remarkable ability to get it right and "not miss a beat".

This also raises in my mind how much rehearsal is required with a conductor to get his tempo... and if the dancers must always follow concept of the conductor or if the conductor asks the dancers about the tempo? Or perhaps the ballet master or something. I really don't know how this all knits together. But it is glorious when it works... Isn't it?

I wish I had an opportunity to see the more companies and be able to compare them. I would think one needs to see a lot of performances to reach a conclusion that one company's dancers are more "musical".

So my questions are:

How many performances would someone need to attend to see clear style distinctions in dance technique?

What is musicality in dance?

It seems odd that a dancer could lack musicality... for me they are in a very real sense a silent musical instrument of movement.

I saw this and thought it was quite stunning:

http://www.dance.net/topic/4762510/1/Balle...th-Bolshoi.html

Any word about when Ms Seminova might appear on a New York stage?

I could care less about the audience. I have come to see the artists perform and I have no restraint on MY reaction at the conclusion. I clap and call out bravos and bravas and even whistle! Yea that's me at the Met. My wife is a bit "embarrassed"... but she cuts me slack because she knows how much I have enjoyed the performance.

I do sometimes spring to my feet and clap the first moment possible when so moved. I have also sat and clapped in appreciation without the enthusiasm I show for some performers (and performances).

One day I will toss some flowers... a custom which I think is quite beautiful. Or present them somehow at the stage door or whatever. There is an entire flower protocol at the Met... and special florists which are used for the bouquets.

I have had to stand to see the performers take the curtain calls when I was not so moved to do a S/O... bit wanted to see the performers out of role. No big deal.

I do resent when people feel that exiting is rude before all curtain calls are over. For some people they simply can't stay and need to catch a train or something. If these blockers give you attitude, step on their toes as you edge by... just joking.

I suspect that performers love emotive audiences (at the end) but somewhat less so when they are interrupted mid performance at the end of an aria or dance because it might cut the flow of the piece.

I also enjoy some of the individual mannerisms of some ballerinas as they do a mid performance response to audience applause. Vishneva and Dvorovenka seem to have that bit down very well. Do they teach ballerinas these little moves?

I have rarely seen the entire audience do a S/O, but when you get most of them on their feet, you know you have just witnessed something special... like Ferri's farewell performances this past year.

My one experience at the stage door revealed that these incredible artists are very humble and appreciative of the audience and approachable. Try it sometime and meet one of your favs! You'll never forget that performance.

He may not have been everyone's cuppa tea, but then again who is? He did some very provocative films which I enjoyed at the time. I haven't re visited them. But once again... thanks Mr Antonioni. RIP.

My sister live along the Arno and I visit often and have never noticed and ballet productions. I have seen opera at the Teatro Publico (the name I recall). I have discussed ballet with one ex pat friend of my sister who I am sure was there.

It's terribly hot now in Firenze.... 99° F the other day. I imagine most Florentines stay home and keep cool. But seeing the NYCB there WOULD be cool!

He did a charming film of the Mozart Opera the Magic Flute... Zauberflot. It is available in Swedish with English subtitles.

He made a great contribution to the arts.

Thanks Mr Bergman, RIP.

I would like to see classical ballet. I think the ABT should leave the Mr B stuff to the NYCB and try to carve out a different niche as opposed to be all things to dance. But what do I know? Nothing. On the other hand they do need to have the opportunity to do "new" stuff I suppose.

Nor diana vishneva...

I don 't know about historical costuming, but I think an illusion is fine, accuracy being less important. I prefer seeing dancers' bodies and if the costumes hide them, I find that undesirable. But some interpretations are silly as in NYCBs recent R&J. I felt that the design of the costumes and their staging couldn't decide if it wanted to look old or new or what. It certainly did not make me think of medieval Verona. But does that matter always?

I often wonder when you see a ball scene, how everyone is in color coordinated dress, and it looks that they all were made by the same designer. I've never seen so much order out there... but maybe those days were different. Aesthetically it can be interesting, even if it lacks verisimilitude. Obviously the costuming is a design issue and along with the sets does add to the mood of the scene. Head dresses for ballerinas look pretty weird at times too.

Choreography with lots of the corps dancing often has the look of a flower growing (for lack of a better analogy), the symmetry, the repetition, the movement of the elements and so the colors would have to be "coorrdinated" and... they are. In fact, in those types of scenes...the corps looks like... well a corps.. not a bunch of individuals. The Met Opera designers do amazing color coordination in their sets and costuming as does the ABT, the companies I am most familair with, but I think color coordination is a rather common tool for production designers. It makes it work as a whole better I suppose... like music.. all the notes belong there. Do you remember the scene in the movie Amadeus, when they accused Mozart of having too many notes? hahahaha

And speaking of Mozart, I am particularly fond of the Met Zauberflot which is visually stunning, but a fairy tale of course. There (fairy tales) you have a lot of latitude with me. The Bolshoi's recent Corsaire production had backdrops which looked like huge 14th century paintings and did not seem to be trying to create the illusion of space and reality as does the ABT's Swan Lake sets, for example.

Imagine a set painted in the style of impressionism for a ballet of the late 19th century for say, Manon? Despite impressionism in vogue in painting, clothing was rather more mundane in the period compared to where painting was going. Such a set would look interesting, but it would be diffuclt to capture that aesthetiic of the late 19th century in all aspects of a production. But then again, we often don't know what the look of a period is until we get a chance to look back and see what "survived". Historians tell us that.

Any aspect of a story/classical production can set it off balance including costuming or sets. It's approaching that fine line, but when they pull it off it is a stunning visual experience.

That did it... thanks to everyone for the help.

My interface is working odd lately... has there been an upgrade?

I can't work my way back through the posts. Instead I see something that lookts like a collapsed outline. But I can't open any old posts and only few recent ones are visible. This is true regarless of how I try to enter the thread.

Also when I click the "reply" button the window appears "quoting" the last post..

Perhaps my own "settings" have changed? Can someone help get back to where I was able to read back through older posts.

WBAI's Through the Opera Glass did and amazing three hour presentation of Ms Sills work last Sunday AM. It is well worth a listen. She was truly an amazing artist. You can hear it on the WBAI's archieves.

As far as costumes go..... come on.... what purpose do those ugly Star-Wars headpieces serve? The ones the female peasants in Act 1 wear. And the dresses on all the females in Act 1, including the pas de trois are much too long. Can't see enough of the dancing action. Meanwhile the male peasants wore tight shorts....Ugh.

I certainly noticed the bicycle shorts and that looked weird as hell. That sure crashes the illusion. But any lycra tights seem anachronistic to me. I also don't like long dressed and "thick" costumes on dancers because it hides their bodies and movements as opposed to revealing them. The very thin fabic such as Juliet wore for longish skirts sometimes even add something to the movement and don't conceal the legs. I think call dance costumes need to defer to movement.

My memory is failing, but I don't think this was exactly the same production as last year. I don't recall the star wars head gear SZ mentions from previous years... and I don't remember seeing the swan head dresses last night. If they were there I was not looking at their heads... or maybe I was lost in the entire illusion of a swan.

The illusion of illusion also depends on on deep your knowledge and experience are with a particular ballet and your expectations. I'm a novice ballet goer and have only seen the same ballet a few times at most... and except for Manon, separated by a year or many months at least. When you have a history with a ballet or any "experience" you see more, and certainly see more nuance.

This is what you more experienced people are for... to see things and point them out for those who not there yet... and that is why Ballettalk is such a valuable resource to anyone interested in ballet. Thanks again.

McCauley obviously doesn't care for the ABT as his review in the NYTimes today makes perfectly clear.

One thing which stikes me as odd about ballet productions/critique is the focus on the authenticity of period architecture and costuming. I am not certain about how time specific and location specific the classic story ballets are, but in a sense does it really matter? It's an illusion, not a museum display.

We know that R&J took place in Verona. Does the set have to be actually a copy of some street in Verona? Surely not. And Swan Lake is yet another fairy tale... and it doesn't neet to have the verismilitude that one might expect from a play or a movie which aims at being a "period piece". All ballet is other worldy... people don't dance through life.

I don't mind the mixing up of classic styles of architecture and costumes... if it is done with finessse. One thing which I find beautiful is the color pallet of the set and costume designers at the ABT in productions such as Swan Lake, Manon and R&J. I don't imagine everyone showed up at a ball color coordinated, but perhaps in Italy they might have. But the image/illusion is lovely to behold.

A skillful set designer can employ classical motifs with some artistic license (they are artists and not historians) and create a "mood" of a historic time. I found the ABT's R&J worked and the NYCB's was a dismal failure. NYCB was trying to be new and colorful, but they missed because they has one leg in the uncertain past.

The ABT Swan Lake sets are stunning. The lake water in the background literally glistens in the glow of the moonlight. I have seen that gliustening on the water and the designers pulled that off perfectly. Hat tip to them.

As fas as historical accuracy of costumes and architecture... I could care less as long as the illusion works for me and provides the proper setting for the choreography. When the curtain rises I have to suspend disbelief and let the artists take me away.... all of them... the choreographer(s), designers, lighting and set carpenters, the whole crew and of course the dancers.

Vishneva, Gomez and the ABT made me a believer for a few hours. It made my day. McCauley is jaded despite the fact that he has seen thousands of ballet performances... Bad on him. He could only dream to have the talent Ms Visneva has in her pinkie.

I am going to bed now, but Diana Vishneva was amazing and the audience was very demonstrative of their feelings. Marcello gave his usual performace... but he appeared a little less engaged than usual. Diana on the other hand was so intense and she appeared to dance with her eyes closed in Act II at times, completely immersed in her role. Her back is amazingly flexible and her hands and arms are just exquisite.

The corps seemed a bit off in the first half of the ballet. It was nice to see Misty Copeland do some solo work; she performed beautifully, Stella was not as stellar as usual and Sasha didn't have much too work with as Rothbart, but his solo was exellent.

The production is gorgeous, costumes, sets, lighting and of course the music and the choreography. Diana was as believable a swan as a human could be. I think she nailed the role, but I would have liked to see more expression in her face and eyes. Or was I just looking at her body moving and not noticing it? When she does, it is very powerful.

One thing about the top ballerinas... their arms and hands are amazing to watch. Diana is a perfect example of this.

One thing which struck as odd... why would a swan "jump" as she does in the end? Yea, I know they call it a swan dive (why?)... but to my eye it looked strange... it reminded me of Tosca jumping to her death off the Castille in the final scene after she realized she had been double crossed.

Not a great review, but I loved the performance.

NYTimes messed up. Both dancers deserved their due, but the placement of the articles and even the fact that they appeared on the same day was a bone headed decision by the Times. Each article should have been first page of the Arts section on separate days. I wonder who was responsible for that???

My identical twin nieces are about 11 or 12 (I should know) and I want to take them to the ballet and see if they are interested in studying ballet. So I was thinking... Are there (were there) any identical twins who are ballet dancers in the same company?

As I have become more interested in ballet, I have been visiting BalletTalk more and more and attending more performances. I do find it addicitive.. seeing ballet performed and reading about it.

This past year I have attended perhaps 20 performaces. It's hard to believe that I am attending so much, but if I could I would probably go even more if I could.

I sat next to a lady last week who had 7 ABT subscriptions in one season!

How many performances of ballet do you attend in a year?

How many performances would you like to attend in a year?

Do you like to see different casts perform the same ballet in one week... or save your attendance for your favorite ballets and dancers?

My impression was that Bolle is a very handsome clean and very "large" dancer, but with a very boyish looking face. he didn't show a bit of aging in the final act, but Manon sure did.

I sat in the orchestra and pertty much decided that grand tier is a much better perspective for viewing ballet. A perfect example why I prefer being up (a bit) was the opening scene from Manon. From the orchestra you could not see the beautiful round cloke of Lesaut arrayed around him. He simply appears to be kneeling at stage center. From above the large round shape with him in the center is a very power statement of how central he is to the fate of his sister.

Also one notices the disparity in the dancers heights much more from the orchestra level and I find this a bit annoying. Bolle seems huge next to diminutive Ferri. Cornejo also looked small next to Gillian Murphy. A perfect role for Gillian and she rose to the occasion. And finally some of the intricate choreography of this ballet is lost when viewed from stage level. My fiend who accompanied me last night agreed as I got her up to sit with me in the grand tier on the previous ballet. She has always sat down in the orchestra as we did last night. She's moving up!

At the final curtain call for Ferri (there were many) her husband, who sat close to us with their two daughters... raised the little Ferri up on his shoulders and she waved to her mother who smiled at her and waved back. A very moving movement.

Sasha nailed the jailor and he was perfect as Lesaut on Tuesday. Good on him!

Fair enough Carbro... I plead guity to watching much of the ballet thru opera classes. And this does allow me to see lots of detail and facial expressions.

Accordinging I found Julie Kent was fabulous and when I passed the glasses to my wife to have a look see, I realized that without the glasses it was, as you say mostly body and form and so forth and seeing her expressions was virtually impossible and we sat in the second row in the Grand Tier.

The choreography of many dances cannot be seen with glasses and from abovewithout them it can and often is glorious.. the choreography is like a kaliedoscope of motion. I saw the Manon rehearsal and the Tuesday performance, rehearsal from the orchestra and performance from the GT and they REALLY looked like two different ballets. I spent a lot of time behind the spy glasses because I like to look at detail. From that intimate POV the acting was great. I would have missed many of the facial expressions of Sacha for example.. and he was excellent and the audience agreed and most did not need glasses to see that.

However, one can see dancing quite wonderfully with glasses, but hardly more than a few people at a time so the big picture is lost. When more than a couple or 3 are dancing glasses make no sense at all, such as when the corps is at it... unless you want to focus on one corps member... or soloist not performing standing on the side, which I do from time to time.

How expressive must a body/movement be to be "read" from a few hundred feet away in dim lighting? When does the distance mask the subtlety? I must admit I love the way the glasses let me look closely at the dancers... perhaps as if I am 10 feet away. Is that unnatural? I don't know. But it feels like I see so much more that way... and I see plenty of what I would term acting. But I see it in the movement, posture, and so forth as well. Symphonie Concertante is a non opera glass ballet for me.

One thing which occured to me about Mannon... when the male characters like Lescat, for example, seemed "excited" about something, some idea perhaps... he would go whirling and spinning across the stage... like bursting energy of thought or unspoken speech. Obviously some movement and gesture is more literal and easily read... but others.. like spinning is more abstract and I suspect that it is meant to mean something... at times ... more than just a display of virtuosity. But my guess is just that a guess. Perhaps not every step and movement is not meant to have meaning. I like to think it is... and that is part of the brilliance and mystery. Story ballet seems to marry abstraction and the literal in a magical and magnetic way.

Manon is a wonderful ballet at the ABT, music, sets, costumes (too much taking off of coats though), choreography and acting. I'll be there for a Ferri performace tomorrow making it my first experience of the same ballet with different leads in such a short time frame.