kfw

Regardless of whether or not Croce's central point was valid, I've always thought that the best way for her to illustrate it would have been to go ahead and review the dance as dance theater" - to insist on her terms, and not what she saw as Jones'. The best way to say "this is not art" or "this is bad art" would have been to say that the specific work itself, not just the concept, failed as art.

Great topic. The article is available here.

https://artpdf.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/croce-oates_crisis-of-criticism_1994.pdf

Happy New Year to our members all over the world!

I would like to thank dirac for the huge amount of work it is to do Links all year round, and to Mme. Hermine for Sunday Links. rg's photos are a treasure for this site. :flowers:

Thanks, indeed. Happy New Year, everyone, and my 2015 include lots of great dancing!

There is an interview in the NY Times about Stroman's next project, the Merry Widow at the Met Opera. In passing, she mentions that the next stop for Little Dancer is a run during the summer of 2015 in Los Angeles at the Ahmanson Theater.

The Washington Post reports this morning that

Stroman may have jumped the gun. Neither the Kennedy Center, which produced the “Little Dancer” premiere, nor the Center Theatre Group would confirm her statement.

“We are in discussions,” a spokesman for the three-theater complex in Los Angeles said Monday.

The Center Theatre Group has a recent history with Stroman, having staged her revival of the Kander and Ebb musical “Scottsboro Boys” last year. . . . four-time Tony winner Boyd Gaines, who plays Degas, said he was keeping his schedule clear of long-term projects to be available for “Little Dancer.”

Thanks for taking time to find and post those links, Kathleen. I've only received fundraising calls from NYCB, and I rarely donate, but they've always been polite. What I find rude is that telemarketers, doctor's and dentist's offices, and the like always ask for people by their first name, and don't even identify themselves first. I used to ask "do you know so-and-so?", but having learned to expect the inevitable, now I just say "who's calling please?"

Thanks, abatt. They put a lot of their lectures online, so we can hope to see this there eventually.

But please, no sets and costumes similar to NYCB's SL & R&J ( sorry, I had to mention that). Any thoughts?

Given Martins' track record with story ballets, I'd prefer to see Mearns or Peck dance the ballet with another company. But if he did do Giselle, perhaps he'd commission Susan Tammany, who did his La Sylphide. Here's what Anna Kisselgoff wrote in the Times in 1985. I'm not sure it sounds any better than a Per Kirkeby set.

the surprisingly abstract scenery for the second act by the ballet's designer, a New York artist named Susan Tammany. Her forest does not have realistic trees but is filled with psychedelic stylizations in whites, grays, silvers and pinks with a purple ridge of heather. The farmhouse in Act I is bare and somewhat ugly in its earth colors. But Thomas Skelton's lighting creates a magical light-and-shade silhouette for the sylph when she first appears at James's window

Lauren Anderson made principal at Houston Ballet, Tapfan. (After all your opining you still haven’t bothered to inform yourself?) People much more knowledgeable than I think others should have been elevated to soloist or principal. Plenty of others, no doubt, if they'd had chances early on.

If you have knowledge of wealthy donors who expect ballet to look like the Mariinsky in 1965, or reasons to think they do, I’m all ears. Otherwise, I'm sorry, but that's just reverse prejudice. But whenever I've ask you for knowledge or viewing experience, I've come up short.

I know that Lauren Anderson and Tai Jimenez both danced as principals in major U.S. companies.

That's good, because what you wrote is that

we're not buying the explanation that no black woman has ever been good enough for the principle ranks.

I didn't explain myself very well.

OK, thanks for clarifying. I've certainly made the same mistake sometimes.

Lauren Anderson made principal at Houston Ballet, Tapfan. (After all your opining you still haven’t bothered to inform yourself?) People much more knowledgeable than I think others should have been elevated to soloist or principal. Plenty of others, no doubt, if they'd had chances early on.

If you have knowledge of wealthy donors who expect ballet to look like the Mariinsky in 1965, or reasons to think they do, I’m all ears. Otherwise, I'm sorry, but that's just reverse prejudice. But whenever I've ask you for knowledge or viewing experience, I've come up short.

I know that Lauren Anderson and Tai Jimenez both danced as principals in major U.S. companies.

That's good, because what you wrote is that

Lauren Anderson made principal at Houston Ballet, Tapfan. (After all your opining you still haven’t bothered to inform yourself?) People much more knowledgeable than I think others should have been elevated to soloist or principal. Plenty of others, no doubt, if they'd had chances early on.

If you have knowledge of wealthy donors who expect ballet to look like the Mariinsky in 1965, or reasons to think they do, I’m all ears. Otherwise, I'm sorry, but that's just reverse prejudice. But whenever I've ask you for knowledge or viewing experience, I've come up short.

Drew wrote:

It matters if people actually believe something or not. Someone who believes a racist fantasy is going to act in racist ways. Someone who just makes agreeable noises to get along is acting shamefully, but that doesn’t make them racist, or mean they’ll act it. (Then again, is birtherism always racism? The Tea Party would look for reasons to discredit a white Obama too. They’re no less kind, if less imaginative, about Reid and Pelosi). Most people do laugh at birthers. What mainstream pols take the birther position in mainstream forums? I think they’re going along to get along. Both sides court their fringes to gain power and keep it, and both sides play up the power and size of the other side’s fringes for political reasons as well.

“Mainstream” Republicans did flirt with the birther position in “mainstream forums.” As aurora and I pointed out earlier, the making of such “agreeable noises” would signify that an important voting bloc for their party required them. It would also mean that they were deliberately encouraging views they knew to be not only nutty and frivolous but detrimental to the legitimacy of the executive in the public eye, an executive who just happened to be a man of mixed race with a funny African name. Not to mention the nationwide distraction the birth certificate business proved to be.

While this topic was on the front burner, some conservatives did attempt to point to the 9/11 Truthers as the Democratic equivalent of the birthers. The truthers started on the fringe and they have remained there. You did not see Democratic politicians and apparatchiks playing footsie with them or openly encouraging them.

Some of you people spend a lot more time tracking birthers than I do. I'll take your word for it that some mainstream Republicans flirted with birtherism, but I've lost track of what that supposedly has to do with racism in ballet. Beyond that, I agree with what you say here.

The people who talk about facing the problem are part of the problem?

No. The problem is racism, and the question is how much of a problem it is. I didn't say talking about racism is racist.

Yes indeed, the problem is racism. I was responding to your statement, quoted above, that personal stories about experiences of racism are “counterproductive,” influencing their auditors to exaggerate a problem that a) does not exist at all or b) isn’t really that big of a deal these days and that such "object lessons" are causing unnecessary and misleading trouble -- and are thus, presumably, contributing to the problem they describe.....

Except of course that’s an oversimplification to the point of distortion of what I actually said. Try again if you like. I’ll help you. You could disagree with the premise in my first clause, upon which the rest of my argument hangs. Or you could accept the premise but say that stories of overcoming racism have a moral weight that makes it important to tell them no matter what. Or you could say that racism is still so bad in ballet companies that the value of preparing kids to face it outweighs the value of encouraging them by emphasizing instead the degree to which, racism having been stigmatized and hated, they'll likely get extra encouragement from many people precisely because they’re black.

See, I’m making your arguments for you. All those are arguments I might not agree with, but that respond to what I actually said. Try working with them. Even try answering my questions.

It matters if people actually believe something or not. Someone who believes a racist fantasy is going to act in racist ways. Someone who just makes agreeable noises to get along is acting shamefully, but that doesn’t make them racist, or mean they’ll act it. (Then again, is birtherism always racism? The Tea Party would look for reasons to discredit a white Obama too. They’re no less kind, if less imaginative, about Reid and Pelosi). Most people do laugh at birthers. What mainstream pols take the birther position in mainstream forums? I think they’re going along to get along. Both sides court their fringes to gain power and keep it, and both sides play up the power and size of the other side’s fringes for political reasons as well.

“Mainstream” Republicans did flirt with the birther position in “mainstream forums.” As aurora and I pointed out earlier, the making of such “agreeable noises” would signify that an important voting bloc for their party required them. It would also mean that they were deliberately encouraging views they knew to be not only nutty and frivolous but detrimental to the legitimacy of the executive in the public eye, an executive who just happened to be a man of mixed race with a funny African name. Not to mention the nationwide distraction the birth certificate business proved to be.

While this topic was on the front burner, some conservatives did attempt to point to the 9/11 Truthers as the Democratic equivalent of the birthers. The truthers started on the fringe and they have remained there. You did not see Democratic politicians and apparatchiks playing footsie with them or openly encouraging them.

Some of you people spend a lot more time tracking birthers than I do. I'll take your word for it that some mainstream Republicans flirted with birtherism, but I've lost track of what that supposedly has to do with racism in ballet. Beyond that, I agree with what you say here.

The people who talk about facing the problem are part of the problem?

No. The problem is racism, and the question is how much of a problem it is. I didn't say talking about racism is racist.

Plisskin wrote:

Your using Copeland's rank as a top reason as to why her claims of racism are false. It is completely significant to bring up Obama since, according to you, if a black person achieves a high position that means their claims of racism are "doubtful".

I see your point, but I’m not talking about a hypothetical black person, I’m talking about an exceptionally talented black dancer in a largely liberal (not a pejorative, I’m a lifelong Democrat who voted and canvassed for Obama twice) milieu. Yes, black females as well as males face racism (and again, I’m not pretending to know that Copeland never faced any, ever at ABT), but that doesn’t explain why males would succeed in a racist environment. Here, again, are some questions that indicate why I’m skeptical of Copeland’s perception.

Why wouldn’t ADS promote out of empathy?

Why wouldn’t ADs promote in their own financial interest?

Isn’t the argument that the ballet world is rife with racism an argument that it’s morally inferior to people posting on this thread? How likely is that?

Why would Americans embrace Cosby and Oprah but not a black ballerina?

Isn’t Copeland proof America loves a black ballerina?

Since black males are the most conspicuous victims of racism in society at large, doesn’t the success of Carlos Acosta, Craig Hall, and other male African-American dancers suggest the ballet world is, at least, far less racist, and for the most art welcoming?

Kathleen O’Connell wrote:

what kind of proof are you looking for? I'm not asking to be snarky. I really do want to know what you would accept as evidence that black ballet dancers are uniquely challenged when it comes to matters of coaching, casting, and promotion.

A good and fair question. One answer would be convincing answers to my questions above. But I’d say that while there is no question that African-American dancers have definitely been uniquely challenged, it’s also most likely that, more and more, their race is an advantage in many situations, for reasons I’ve tried to explain. When someone says, as Tapfan did, that the relative absence of black dancers make ballet look like some weird cult . . . that’s when I in turn ask for proof.

Vipa wrote:

Maybe Copeland's self promotion will translate into more African American girls studying ballet and more will enter the pipe line. That's my hope.

That seems happily inevitable to me, but I would also think that the more Copeland’s story is seen as a story of overcoming racism, the more girls will say “who needs it, I’ll go some place where I’ll be accepted.”

ETA:

Copeland’s rank and opportunities seem to contradict what she believes she encountered.

Obama never encountered racism then, because he became President of the United States.

That is your logic.

No, that would follow from claiming Copeland never encountered racism anywhere, but not from doubting its significance at ABT. Obama had a whole country to appeal to, each with one vote apiece, not just a few powerful people at ABT who stood to benefit from her success.

Kathleen O'Connell wrote:

May we offer up the voices of black dancers as "personal knowledge"? Many in addition to Copeland have spoken about their experiences.

Are there any other black women in predominently white companies who have advanced past the corp de ballet?

Yes. At this point in the discussion, the more pertinent question is which black women you have seen dance ballet whom you feel should have advanced further than they have. Make your case for them based on what you’ve seen – if you can. You allege discrimination. Names please – if you have any. “Everyone knows black people are discriminated against, so dancers are too” is not an answer. No one disputes that they have been, but you allege that that are now. Perhaps so. Someone somewhere, no doubt, and that’s a terrible shame. But you imply widespread and systematic racism. Please demonstrate it based on personal knowledge.

I'm not alleging anything. I'm asking a question. You're the one who's being defensive. I was asking because I honestly wanted to know if there were any other black women in senior positions.

A name or two has been mentioned in this thread. A simple wikipedia search will find some.

Are there any other black women in predominently white companies who have advanced past the corp de ballet?

Yes. At this point in the discussion, the more pertinent question is which black women you have seen dance ballet whom you feel should have advanced further than they have. Make your case for them based on what you’ve seen – if you can. You allege discrimination. Names please – if you have any. “Everyone knows black people are discriminated against, so dancers are too” is not an answer. No one disputes that they have been, but you allege that that are now. Perhaps so. Someone somewhere, no doubt, and that’s a terrible shame. But you imply widespread and systematic racism. Please demonstrate it based on personal knowledge.

If the crowd is sizable enough to make it worth playing to I don't think the distinction really matters. If they were outlying nutters then no mainstream pols would be playing to them or they'd be laughed out of town.

As the polls cited by Kathleen show, you don't have to be a birther by any stretch of the imagination to be among the millions "unsure" if Obama was born in the US.

It matters if people actually believe something or not. Someone who believes a racist fantasy is going to act in racist ways. Someone who just makes agreeable noises to get along is acting shamefully, but that doesn’t make them racist, or mean they’ll act it. (Then again, is birtherism always racism? The Tea Party would look for reasons to discredit a white Obama too. They’re no less kind, if less imaginative, about Reid and Pelosi). Most people do laugh at birthers. What mainstream pols take the birther position in mainstream forums? I think they’re going along to get along. Both sides court their fringes to gain power and keep it, and both sides play up the power and size of the other side’s fringes for political reasons as well.

A country in which Cosby and Oprah are enormous stars (if Cosby was America’s Dad, Oprah was female America’s Best Friend), and which elects a black man twice, isn’t a post-racial paradise, no, but it’s surely willing to welcome a black ballerina – as Copeland is proving.

quoting:

"He also hopes to secure a recording contract for the Orchestra and to record some of the music NYCB commissioned, but never used for a ballet."

Aside from the chance to hear works that didn't, for one reason or another, get used by the company, I'm hoping for recordings of seminal works at proper tempos. I've got a couple of recordings of works played as they are in the theater, and they're such a revelation, compared to other standard orchestral versions.

As I'm sure you know but some others may not, Robert Irving, longtime NYCB conductor under Balanchine, recorded the scores for Serenade, Agon, The Four Temperaments and Emeralds with the NYCB orchestra. The recording is still available.

The success of The Cosby Show was actually the first of its kind - presenting a middle-class black family to widespread white audience acceptance. Cosby's success was not typical, it was the exception and a first. It is true that several African-American male actors have become big stars, but not always without qualifications. And black female actors had, and continue to have, a much harder time of making it to the top and staying there, which may be germane to the topic here.

I don't think Obama was damaged by any of the birth certificate controversy. If anything, it made the Republicans look stupid and petty, and indirectly may have helped Obama. If memory serves, even John McCain confirmed publicly that he was sure of Obama's US Citizenship so that McCain could distance himself from the right wing extremists in his own party.

Only up to a point, abatt. The reason the Administration finally gave in and released the long form birth certificate was because the topic would not go away (the flames fanned by the GOP) and it really was beginning to hurt him. My hunch is they may have been playing rope-a-dope, in addition to a natural reluctance to give in to the crazies, but they did it a little too long. And again, we're not talking only extremists, but mainstream elements within the political opposition.

The Cosby show was a first 30 years ago, which was part of my point. And speaking of huge female African-American stars, Oprah, or so wikipedia tells me, goes back that far as well.

In regards to those mainstream pols, do they actually doubt Obama's citizenship? Are they really nutty on the issue (probable evidence of racism) or are they just playing to the crowd that is?

At the peak of the birther movement, various Republican politicians and pundits dipped their toes in those murky waters, lending various kinds of tacit or direct support. Generally they did back off when questioned directly, along the lines of just-what-did-you-mean-when-you-said-that-sir? but there is no question that mainstream conservative elements were, to say the least, chummy with the birthers, or at least disinclined to enlighten them. Names that occur to me offhand – Senators Inhofe and Vitter, Ken Cuccinelli, who was Virginia’s Attorney General.

And almost our governor. Not to disagree with your larger point, but while Cuccinelli could be considered mainstream because of his position, his views are not. He was, and even after the campaign remains, a Tea Party darling, someone most us think of as waaay out on the right. But then the center has shifted to the edges in both parties.

So far there're 7 sold outs that I know of, and 3 of them belongs to Misty, actually all of her Nuts are sold outs. If she can maintain her box office draw during the Met season, I'd expect promotion announcement soon after the Met season.

Leaving aside whether or not Copeland deserves promotion for her dancing - a subject I have no opinion on, not having seen her dance - what about a hypothetical soloist of any race who is getting lots of outside attention, who essentially has a fan club, and is selling lots of extra tickets because of it. For an AD, what are the ethics of promoting that dancer for the sake of his or her bottom line, and by extension, for the survival of the art form?

Interesting that Copeland's Nutcracker shows sold out. Did they do any special advertising for those performances? Of course Copeland tweeting etc. about them might have been enough. I have no idea what KM will do in respect to making her a principal, but see no reason to promote her because she has outside attention. As a soloist getting cast in secondary roles and an occasional 1st principal role she can serve the function of being a ticket draw without being a principal dancer.

True, although if that hypothetical dancer kept getting plenty of principal roles season after season, but not the promotion to principal, the AD's reasons would be obvious.