Davidsbündlertänze

Yes, but that's résumé, and the dancer is self-tracking, as you've said. Career details like this are rarely made public by ballet companies, any more than a Fortune 500 firm publishes bioblurbs about its COs. Can you see it? "And after 3 hit years with Slimemold, Fenster and Czolgosz, Mr. Jones actually succeeded in downsizing HIMSELF in a personnel model of his own devising!" "In 5 years at Entropy Partners, Ms. Smith became renowned for her mastery of the financial workings of the company, gaining five hundred million dollars in personal salary while accidentally outsourcing all production to Bhutan."

I do know, however, that Robert Joffrey actually used to check on claims on some CVs. He had me make the calls. Sometimes the results were enlightening.

Maybe this is too strange an idea (I seriously don't have enough common sense to know if it is strange), but something like an "Internet Ballet Database" would be very useful like the IMDb. I wonder if that could happen. I used to visit the site "Musical Theatre in Europe" (couldn't find it recently; they must've changed the name) and it had all the stats for opera singers who performed in European halls - easy-to-use & very convenient.

Edited to add: I should have googled "Internet Ballet Database" before writing this post. I guess I'm really behind the times: there seems to have been an IBD - but it doesn't exist anymore?? That's a shame!

On a related note: The "unpleasant episode" over money between Balanchine and Prokofiev (p.112, Taper's Balanchine) is also mentioned in David Nice's Prokofiev: from Russia to the West. Prokofiev denied that the incident happened, and Nice implies that Balanchine was exaggerrating (or possibly made it all up? I have a hard time believing Balanchine would do that.) I returned the book to the library (so I can't quote it exactly), but that's what I remember.

Needless to say, Prokofiev comes off as a real jerkface in Taper's book. I still love his music, though.

When I left it by accident on a flight from NY to Portland (are there really any accidents?) I did not run out to replace it.

Before taking a 12 hour flight last year, my friend gave me John Irving's A Prayer for Owen Meany ("I love this book! You must read this book!") Ugh. I wish I had left it on the plane. Or better yet, thrown it at the propeller.

I didn't care for Winter Season overall because I thought the style was hopelessly mushy, but it also presents a valuable snapshot of NYCB, Farrell, and an ordinary dancer's life and so it's worth reading. I just passed over certain sections for reasons that will be obvious once you get to them. Bentley's writing has gotten much better over the years. I admire her book on Karinska.

What was I thinking? I will definitely read Winter Season for Farrell info. Thanks dirac! I will also try to read her book on Karinska.

Well, I think we have all seen a bunch of pas de deux's where the man throws the woman around, hoists her over his head, drags her on the floor and twists her around in pretzel shapes to show that love is war

ROFL. I just watched MacMillan's TRIAD for the umpteenth time on dvd. I like the ballet (love Prokofiev's 1st violin concerto), but your description fits! Every time I see it, I feel so bad for La Fosse in the PDD - he looks like he's about to collapse. I'd rather be the person being twisted into a pretzel. I think that would be lots of fun!!!

I'll just spit it out: I hated this book. There. I said it.

I love Suzanne Farrell, I'm impressed that Toni Bentley was a ballerina with the NYCB & became a writer (I enjoy her articles in the NYTimes), but I just found it utterly painful to read this book.

Maybe my timing was off. Immediately before reading this one, I read Taper's bio of Balachine and Kirstein's book about the 30 Years of NYCB. Both books were a joy to read and I had very high hopes for Farrell's bio. Instead, utter disappointment. I'm thankful for the information, but I was just so put off by the writing style (I know, I'm no great stylist, but I'm not a professional writer. This is only my opinion.) I must have underlined the phrase "of its own accord" thirty times? For some reason, the repetition of that phrase annoyed me to no end.

This is the reason I've been avoiding Winter Season. I'm scared of it. I want to know about the real life of a dancer, but if it's anything like Holding onto the Air....

Somewhere (where?) I read that Tchaikovsky, broken hearted by rejection of his affections by a young man, had wandered around the city in the winter, not appropriately dressed for the weather, caught pneumonia and died... I want to say I read this in Balanchine's Tchaikovsky but I loaned that book out to a much admired non-native-english speaking accompanist and it somehow never returned... Does anyone have a copy and could check? Or does this version ring a bell with any of you?

Balanchine says that Tchaikovsky "tried to catch cold, to chill himself to death, and that's not the same thing as committing suicide" when he was married. As to his actual death later on, Balanchine speculates on the story that Tchaikovsky drunk a glass of unboiled tap water in a restaurant during a cholera epidemic. This may have been a "kind of Russian Roulette," a "playing with fate." He says he believes the composer had thought about his death for a long time, that though he was devout and certainly thought suicide a sin, he wrote in a letter that he didn't believe in a punishing God, and that he wrote the "Pathetique "as a kind of suicide note."

With all due respect to Balanchine, I'm wary of looking at the Pathetique as Tchaikovsky's swan song. I read Brown's bio of Tchai., and I think he convincingly writes about how the composer was in the midst of really enjoying his success, his place in life, his own skin - so suicide was the last thing on his mind. He was, argues Brown, a man content in the present & optimistic about the future. (Edited too add: "Suicide was the last thing on his mind" - and this is how Brown supports the theory of Tchaikovsky being forced to commit suicide. You'll have to read the book to get the juicy details.)

I guess composers' last symphonies have a tendency to be seen as farewells to life, especially if they pass on [during] or shortly after, like Mahler's last one. But I remember reading in the journal of the International Gustav Mahler Society (can't locate the article; I get their journal approx. twice a year) that Mahler's last was more a farewell to love, not of life. H. de la Grange has found info. that supports the fact that Mahler was recovering from Alma & was ready to move on with his life without her. Grange also discounts those characterizations of Mahler that made him sound very weak and frail - instead, Grange has found that Mahler was quite robust & relatively healthy, and he certainly didn't expect to expire during the time before he died.

Mahler was looking towards the future & had everything to live for - the same could be argued for Tchaikovsky. Therefore, the Pathetique is a farewell to love (for his nephew "Bob."), if one is convinced of that theory.

Well, i'm not sure about the consensus, but I think it's ballet; so do most British critics, including the hell-on-pretentious-upstarts whip-smart Quentin Crisp (or at least his writings suggest that).

LMAO!! I do this all the time! A few months ago, I mentioned "Quentin Crisp" to a friend and he said, "I didn't know he was a ballet critic!" And recently, I was searching for an interview with Clement Crisp that I read 4 or 5 years ago - but I typed "Quentin Crisp" into google - and I kept getting THE NAKED CIVIL SERVANT. This went on for 15 minutes until I realized...

but The Naked Civil Servant is a wonderful film.

I haven't seen it, but I heard that the best parts of the film are when the main character is either being naked or being civil. It is difficult, though, to be both naked and civil at the same time. (And yes, I've completely lost it.)

Let's hope the search engines attract additional browsers, some of whom stick around to become new members/posters/fellow BT'rs!

That's how I found this site!

I should have read this introductory section first - there's a lot of helpful info!

What would happen if all 3,000 members logged on at the same time? Would this website explode? I know this would never happen....but I really wish I could see it. That would be pretty wild. (I'm joking, btw)

Well, i'm not sure about the consensus, but I think it's ballet; so do most British critics, including the hell-on-pretentious-upstarts whip-smart Quentin Crisp (or at least his writings suggest that).

LMAO!! I do this all the time! A few months ago, I mentioned "Quentin Crisp" to a friend and he said, "I didn't know he was a ballet critic!" And recently, I was searching for an interview with Clement Crisp that I read 4 or 5 years ago - but I typed "Quentin Crisp" into google - and I kept getting THE NAKED CIVIL SERVANT. This went on for 15 minutes until I realized...

Thanks to everyone who responded!

1) I haven't seen RAY yet - I'm putting it on my list of things to watch.

2) muppets and muppeteers - I didn't know Henson and co. were musicians!! Sehr interessant!

3) Valley of the Dolls - Haven't seen this either, but I've heard of it. Isn't it a Corman film written by Ebert?

3) a person doesn't have to be qualified to comment - you know bad impersonations when you see them!

papeetepatrick Posted Jun 8 2008, 09:35 PM:

All the actors in THE RED VIOLIN

ugh, impersonations of violinists!! what a nightmare!! And the movie itself was awful.

Agree, one of the most horrible things I've ever seen, but I'm only talking about the 45 minutes I kept it on.

I rented it from Netflix, so I felt obligated to finish it...to the bitter bitter end. When it was all over, I pumped my fists into the air in victory: "Hooray! It didn't kill me!" But I remember saying to my friend, as a joke, when the film started: "I bet the 'Red' is ketchup." And I was right! (Ok, it's not really ketchup, but I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't seen it yet.)

Would agree about 'The Piano', but didn't care too much because the sound of the music itself was torture enough. Now THAT definitely belongs in the Overrated Movies, and I think I saw it there.

I've never seen THE PIANO, actually. Is that the one with Michael Nyman's music?

Another bad example I forgot to mention: David Thewlis in BESIEGED. He's one of my favorite actors, but he really screwed up what should have been a tremendous scene. Such a letdown! It's still a favorite film of mine, though.

Did you see Husbands and Wives? Pollack is really great in that, too.

I forgot about that film! Yes, I saw it and I liked it a lot, especially Pollack. Hmmmm...so it turns out that I like three of Woody's films, not two. I'm sure he'll be so happy to hear that.

After watching dozens of clips from vintage Sesame Street & the muppet show, I was impressed with how realistic those

muppets looked when they sang & played instruments (ex. "Letter B", "Country Gardens", etc...) The puppeteers really did an excellent job: they should have coached the following actors:

Adrien Brody - THE PIANIST

"I'll just wiggle my fingers near the top of the keyboard when the music gets high..." But it's more than the fingers, of course.

Romain Duris - THE BEAT THAT MY HEART SKIPPED

He's worse than Brody.

All the actors in THE RED VIOLIN

ugh, impersonations of violinists!! what a nightmare!! And the movie itself was awful.

There's a problem when purple and green puppets look more human playing musical instruments than humans, no??

The BEST ones I've seen:

Helena Bonham-Carter - A ROOM WITH A VIEW

She looks like she can really play the piano. But later I found out she never touched a piano until she was coached for the film. Amazing!

Hugh Grant - IMPROMPTU

Grant as Chopin: I also thought he must have been an amateur pianist possibly. Nope - he never took piano lessons either. But in the film, when Chopin plays one of his etudes, Grant totally looks like he's performing it. Not a fan of the film itself though.

Geoffrey Rush - SHINE

Well, nothing to say except amazing & totally believable. His academy award was well deserved.

This is a brief list because I try to avoid films about musicians (I'd rather watch the real thing). But I'm interested in your picks for the worst (and best?)

Brad Pitt playing an Irish character in that movie with Harrison Ford (can't remember the movie name). He keeps saying "oy, oy, oy, oy." Barf.

papeetepatrick:

If you'll look back, you'll see I didn't compare Amerian Beauty to Blue Velvet.

oops, sorry! i finally read the whole thread without jumping in between tabs...misread some stuff!

Frankly, I don't see that Blue Velvet and American Beauty have much of anything in common. Blue Velvet is removed from the world, American Beauty isn't, it's in the world.

I guess I'm strange b/c even though BV is bizarre and crazy, it seems more real to me than AB. haha!

By the way, I definitely don't think 'over the top' should be meant as a criticism nearly as often as it is. Some of the best things in the Arts are over-the-top.

Good point/agreed.

Cruise is popularly disliked these days, but he's dazzlingly brilliant when he's good, much more of a natural movie star than his ex-wife, whom I find ordinary.

Totally disagree about Cruise being a natural movie star. I don't understand his appeal. I thought he was awful in MAGNOLIA and EYES WIDE SHUT (Sydney Pollack rocked that film, imo.) Then again, those are the only two I've seen him in...I avoid his movies at all costs. As for his ex-wife Kidman: if she’s ordinary, then what does that make Katie Holmes?? I can't think of anyone more ordinary or with less charisma.

On the other hand, I hate all Woody Allen, including 'Annie Hall'. Have I achieved the hatchet-job spirit yet?

wow, that sounds like me! Although I do love HANNAH AND HER SISTERS. I always fast-forward all the scenes with Allen &/or Farrow. (and I also like MELINDA AND MELINDA b/c Allen is never in it....and I prefer Will Ferrell doing Woody Allen.)

Neryssa:

Oh, I love that song! I want the music box... Did you know that it was actually performed by the maid "Anna" in the film? Quite haunting

I didn't know that!!! That's very interesting. I always wondered who sang that song; i always assumed it was Pamela Franklin!

Yes, do watch it again; there is a part where Duvall is not feeling so well and she sinks slowly to the floor. I don't remember if this event takes place after Kubrick loses his temper with her... She is clutching a bunch a kleenex as she "revives" herself

I finally watched the documentary again yesterday, and i didn't think they looked like they were "on" anything. i've never been on a movie set, but i could imagine how stressful it could be w/ the long hours & hot lights, & especially with Kubrick as director. i'm naturally spacey and scatterbrained - maybe Duvall is like that also??

I don't have cable anymore but I can only imagine him on a talk show. "Crash" isn't laughable; it is often moving. It just got on my nerves at times, especially the editing and the music [sic].

I meant "laughable" pertaining to the Tony Danza cameo.

LOL! This reminds me of an anecdote (not ballet-related though) from one of Oscar Levant's books. To advertise for an upcoming concert (1930s or 40s?) at their summer home Robin Hood Dell, the Philadelphia Orchestra put up a ginormous banner: "MITROPOULOS - FUCHS" (Dmitri Mitropoulos, cond. & Joseph Fuchs, vln) Maybe they should have put "FUCHS" first?? Nah, it still sounds bad!

I could blather on at some length about Kubrick’s masterly use of visuals, sound, and music (nice change from John Williams, eh, Davidsbundlertanze?)

YES! haha, just thinking about a Williams-style score for The Shining - now THAT's a really scary movie.

Jack Nicholson and Shelley Duvall were quite strung out on at least 1 "substance" during the production, and I just thought Nicholson's performance was over the top.

lols! I watched that short documentary many times & I never thought that they looked drugged-up. I'll watch it again. And I love Nicholson's performance - perhaps it's over-the-top, although I think it's a matter of WHEN Jack [the character] goes crazy, as opposed to "WILL he go cuckoobananas??" So that's why I'm not bothered by his already slightly deranged demeanor from the beginning of the film.

I detested the final scenes of "Crash" and the "music" that accompanied those scenes. It viewed like a television movie. Also, it is difficult for me to respect any film that casts Tona Danza even in a cameo.

I've haven't watched CRASH, but your description makes me want to see it now! I feel like I could get a good laugh out of it.

I was a loyal viewer of Tony Danza's awful terrible chat show - it was so bad that I liked it. I miss that show. wow, i can't believe i just admitted that.

And the music, sound effects, and stunning cinematography made the apparitions and children's precocious behavior even more chilling and disconcerting.

yes, and I often hum/sing the song from the beginning of the film. Not the happiest song to sing, I know. I've always loved Auric's scores.

How many overrated movies are on that list, I wonder? I haven't gotten passed the Bs, but did see Beverly Hills Cop and Breakfast Club!

Ah! Those great 80s films. BREAKIN' and BREAKIN' 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO should be on that list. haha, thanks for the link!

No floating plastic bags, though. I bet Lynch regretted not having that after seeing AMERICAN BEAUTY

I doubt it. I thought that floating plastic bag sequence was the most irritating thing in the movie. You had to watch and watch and watch, with the director using everything short of semaphore to signal: “Look at this. This is amazing. This is really special.” Urrrggghhh.

dirac: LOL!! I was being sarcastic - I should have been clearer on that, sorry.

These are perfectly understated compared to Lynch's endless noir lamps on nightstands in hooker motel rooms in 'Inland Empire'. And they are all cleaned and polished, as if for collectors of noir memorabilia.

papeetepatrick: Yes, Lynch is never understated, but he's always Lynch - I never feel that he's faking it. Never watched IE, but I disagree though that Blue Velvet is more over-the-top than AB. It's extreme but I still enjoyed it. I bought into its weirdness. I thought it was gritty - not glossy. And I'm not a huge Lynch fan, btw; I just think that BV and AB share the same themes, but that BV is an artwork that is sincere in its strangeness.

Gonna have to agree with dirac that Godfather for me isn't overrated. It might be a victim of its own popularity, a kind of "a movie that popular can't possibly be any good."

THE GODFATHER's popularity didn't affect my opinion of it - it was the film itself (and Al Pacino). When I finally watched THE CONFORMIST and LAST TANGO IN PARIS - already knowing how "popular" both films were - I was not disappointed. Both films exceeded expectations, and then some.

Well, it sure interests me, it's just that it's not realistic to expect it in many domains unless one wants to make oneself miserable.

Actually, perfection does interest me: things that I happen to love...I find these things "perfect". If something is flawless, unblemished - that doesn't necessarily mean it's interesting, or that I will like or derive joy from it. I'm not interested in perfection the way it's usually used: "The perfect house", "The perfect car", etc... you know, as in the Stepford definition, in which every wrinkle is botoxed, every liver spot lasered, every flaw "fixed".... That poem by Gerard Manley Hopkins (can't remember exactly): glory be to God for dappled things - that's my idea of "perfection." Ah, it's so early in the morning, so forgive me for being muddled & for the wild punctuation. Don't know if I made any sense at all.

I'd say 'Last Year at Marienbad was 'cinematic' and 'artistic' but not 'soulful'.

I love that film. Two out of three is fine in my book. The film is not 'soulful', but I meant 'soulful' not just in the story/characters - rather in the filmmaker & his/her 'vision.'

[i didn't care about 'American Beauty' as message, but it seemed to have this sort of hallucination of traditional society falling apart at the seams

I thought it was a pale rip-off of BLUE VELVET, the touchy-feely-glossy version. If I recall correctly, in BV there are red roses in the beginning of the film. No floating plastic bags, though. I bet Lynch regretted not having that after seeing AMERICAN BEAUTY.

There’s not much to say about Catch Me If You Can, is there

Yep. You said it.

John Williams is predictable too, but so are Jerry Goldsmith, and John Barry, and Hans Zimmer (did we catch all those quotes from Holst's Mars and Goretski's 3rd Symphony in Gladiator?) and Horner

I never saw GLADIATOR, and I've heard of those film composers but I can't match them to their films. I singled out Williams because I grew up watching the Boston Pops and he always creeped me out. A quiet man. But also menacing. His podium manner was like Hannibal Lecter.

And then there are those film scores:

SUPERMAN love theme = bastardized pas de deux from Stravinski's APOLLON MUSAGETE.

SCHINDLER'S LIST = warmed-over Mahler's FIRST SYMPHONY with extra cheese

A.I. = his quasi-techno take on DER ROSENKAVALIER

I can just picture him, rubbing his hands together, looking for his next victim.

But don't blame Spielberg for dialogue--he didn't write the scripts, he just has to make them work. And sometimes he tries hard, but fails miserably; and sometimes he overcomes the silliness and banality and tone-deafness of the author(s) and makes something visually stunning if not exactly listenable.

It's a collaboration but he's still the director. He gets most of the glory if the films are good - and if they stink, he should get most of the blame.

I'd have to disagree with you about 'The Shining.' In fact, I think it's a classic. It scared me witless when I first saw it, and those little girls still spook me every time. On certain days I'd even be tempted to call it Kubrick's best film, with the possible exception of Dr. Strangelove.

dirac, i agree 100%. i've always loved the film & i think it's his masterpiece. love dr. strangelove too. 'Merkwürkdigliebe' - haha! that always cracks me up!

I've never understood why people thought "The Shining" was so "scary." OK, maybe the lady in the bathtub was creepy...

it never quite scared me like a typical slasher film - and i don't think he intended it to be just 'scary' - but it still unsettles me because i feel like i'm being hypnotized & i've always enjoyed a good creepy ghost (reincarnation) story...and it's a father trying to chop up his family & he blames them for his failures... & they're stuck in a cavernous lodge in the middle of winter....isolated....and there's the wave of blood from the elevator, and then the rose petals fly out from her shirt - oops. wrong film.

nyressa: have you seen THE INNOCENTS (film version of The Turn of the Screw with Deborah Kerr), THE OTHERS...or Britten's opera THE TURN OF THE SCREW? these are all very scary imo....brrrr! i'm getting the chills just thinking about it!

Thanks dirac & hello to everyone: I've had a lot of fun reading the posts since I wrote the previous one.

I guess I was rather flippant in my last post - I was lazy and didn't want to get into any specifics.

Regarding Spielberg, I hate his films so very very much because from the outset you know exactly what's going to happen: every scene is laughably obvious, the dialogue cringe-worthy. This wouldn't be such a sin if there was BEAUTY or MAGIC in his filmmaking - Give me something uncanny for goodness sakes! It's all so saccharine-sweet that it becomes like a poison. His movies really should be chopped up & put back together into 30-minute sitcoms. Otherwise it's just terribly wasteful. (I don't know why he doesn't just get rid of the dialogue altogether. Then his films might be palatable.)

Somehow my sister forced me into watching A.I and CATCH ME IF YOU CAN - both on DVD. She's a sadist. Or maybe I'm a masochist.

Oh, I forgot THE TERMINAL. Pure trash. Every scene was vomit-inducing.

And AMERICAN BEAUTY - eh... so this is a film, really?? More like a Lifetime TV movie. Or a commerical for a rose petal company. I don't care that the movie wasn't perfect - perfection doesn't interest me. For me personally, I want to be 'bewitched' by films that I see. I want them to be cinematic, artistic, soulful. I enjoy it when a filmmaker creates a world and then I am seduced by it - if that world is happy or sad, realistic or unrealistic, I really don't care. I run away from 'message' films, but I love films that have meaning. IMHO, the "world" of AMERICAN BEAUTY was totally unconvincing. Phoney-baloney and dead inside.

Other films that I should have included in my overrated list/rant:

Both Almodovar:

ALL ABOUT MY MOTHER

TALK TO HER

Pina Bausch was the best part of TALK TO HER and I'm not crazy about Bausch. Still can't understand the plaudits for both films. BAD EDUCATION was such a superior film in every way (I think it's Almodovar's best film), & it should have won all those ridiculous film awards out there.

I'm looking forward to reading more of your opinions! Great thread, btw.

I'm not even going to apologize for my list beforehand. Sorry if some people can't handle (the truth).

THE DEATH OF MR. LAZARESCU

It's one of the WORST films I've ever seen & I couldn't believe how most critics RAVED about it.

ABERDEEN

Another highly praised film that I absolutely loathed. It was like a perverse ABC After School Special.

LOST IN TRANSLATION

Ugh! This film doesn't have a right to exist.

THE GODFATHER

APOCOLYPSE NOW

I want to punch these films in the face. Oh, if only that was possible!

EVERYTHING BY SPIELBERG

Actually, his films wouldn't be so *unbearable* if he cut out those cloying scores by JOHN WILLIAMS. Who am I kidding? They'd still be as bad as ever. (Somehow I always get tricked into watching a Spielberg film... I'll just save time and poke my eyes out now to prevent that from happening again.)

MOULIN ROUGE

STRICTLY BALLROOM

Baz Luhrmann is the Anti-Christ.

FORREST GUMP (or FOREST? who cares)

I'm not interested in George Dubya's life story. OK, I'm sorry, that was an unfair & cruel insult.....to FORREST GUMP.

AMERICAN BEAUTY

THE ENGLISH PATIENT

THE SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION

BREAKING THE WAVES

These films have already been mentioned, but it bears repeating how much they stink. THEY STINK!

DANCER IN THE DARK

LAST TANGO IN PARIS

CRIES AND WHISPERS

I *love* these films, so I must respectfully disagree with the posters who deem these films 'overrated.'

Thanks szymanowski-

I've always wondered what song this was. It's bothered me for a long time! I actually googled "Henry & June, song, Debussy or Ravel" and I got this website, so I registered to write a "Thank You".