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Drigos "Awakening of Flora" question


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I've just watched Lacotte's reconstruction of "Paquita" on DVD and loved every minute of it. But I am still confused about the music, particularly the parts that are supposed to be Minkus's. I was surprised when I read that only very little music is by Minkus, apparently only the pas the trois from act 1 and the coda which is really just a few minutes of music. Yet so much of the second act sounds like Minkus and doesn't fit into the mid-19th century pattern, at least to my ear. And, if Minkus did just a few additions to the score, why would he be credited with composing the music for "Paquita" by so many dictionaries?

Is there a good source that discusses the music for "Paquita"? It shouldn't really matter that much but I came to ballet "from music" and somehow like to have all musical matters under control if I can help it :innocent: .

Thanks for any input.

Izabela

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Is there a good source that discusses the music for "Paquita"? It shouldn't really matter that much but I came to ballet "from music" and somehow like to have all musical matters under control if I can help it  :innocent: .

i'm afraid this is puzzle that may never be fully sorted out.

there have been threads on the music over the years here.

i do NOT come 'from music' in any way, so i can't be of great help.

it's probably important to start with separating PAQUITA, the multi-act ballet [see below] and the GRAND PAS CLASSIQUE from PAQUITA, which has been discussed here in more than one thread, sometimes in threads on recordings of the music used in various videos. the music for the latter is a real mix of composers from all over the 19th landscape of 'variations' (and even a few 20th c. ones).

as for the precise proportion of Minkus in the lacotte staging i cannot say. (i don't even think one can say for certain that all of the now 'standard' pas de trois is minkus, some i believe is deldevez. (there is a book, in russian, published a few years ago, about the grand pas and it offers more than a dozen different variations associated in russia w/ the grand pas classique from PAQUITA, all with choregraphic 'notations' and with music by any number of composers well beyond minkus and deldevez.)

i realize i'm not really answering your simple question, mostly tho' i fear there is no simple answer even as there are surely more educated answers around than mine.

i don't know how the 'archives' on this site are kept, but if you search PAQUITA you might find some informative posts from the past on various details in this ballet.

Paquita - Original title: Pakhita. Chor: Piotr Malavern' and Marius Petipa after Mazilier; mus: Édouard Deldevez; lib: Paul Foucher and Mazilier. First perf: St. Petersburg, Bolshoi Theater, Sept. 26, 1847 (O.S.)//Revised: St. Petersburg, Bolshoi Theater, Dec. 27, 1881 (O.S.) with additional music by Ludwig Minkus.

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:D Now everything makes sense - so many posts here and elsewhere credited Minkus with only the Act I Pas de trois and II Act's Coda which amounted to really very little music. Maybe I misunderstood them - maybe their authors were taking it for granted that everybody knows that The Grand Pas is Minkus and since this Grand Pas is included in Lacotte's production, there is automatically more Minkus music in the whole thing. This music sounded "soooo Minkus" that I couldn't imagine it being written a few decades earlier. I was ultimately right but I didn't know why and now everything is clear. Thanks again.

Izabela

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Okay.

I've got a performance coming up in the middle of July. I'm schedualed to dance the second act Pas de Deux from La Fille Malgardee, and supply the musical recording as well. Here's my problem. I have no idea which version of the PDD I've learned. The video was sent to me by a friend, and it seems to be a recording of a Russian ensemble doing a perfromance in Japan some 10 odd years ago (I have a sneaking suspicion that the music I'm looking for is the same as the Nijinska version of the ballet). The music from the PDD in question is different than Ashton's (I think)- but I can't figure out who composed it, let alone where to get a performance worthy recording. Herold? Hertel? HELP!

thank you

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Hi, Ekunitz! Welcome to Ballet Talk!

You sound like a very good detective! Without seeing the tape, I can't help -- it could be Hertel, but it could be some other music completely. (This is so obvious I'm sure you've thought of it, but can you tape the music off the video? )

You might want to try asking the question in the Cross Talk forum of our sister site,

Ballet Talk for Dancers

You'll find more dancers and choreographers there (that site is for studio matters, this one is more for watching and talking about performances). We have quite a few music and video buffs here, too, so I hope you'll get an answer here, but asking both places would help.

Good luck, both in finding the music and with your performance!

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There was a broadcast from Canada, which is complete with "clap yo' hands", original cast with the exception of Jacques d' Amboise, who was replaced for that performance by Jean-Pierre Bonnefous. The library at Lincoln Center has a copy. It's on a tape with Tarantella and Movements for Piano and Orchestra.

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I believe you are dancing a VERY OLD pas from the ballet that is harldy done anywhere anymore. The pas de deux in the Ashton version is the "Fanny Elsser Pas de deux" with the ribbons etc.

The only other pas de deux I have ever known in 'Fille Mal Gardee' is the old short pas still performed in Russia, it is a combo of tunes by the original composer of the very first version of 1789 (forgot his name) and Herold.

The only recording ever done of this piece is from a box set called 'Original Bolshoi Theatre Orchestra' . It is a 6 CD set. Ive refered others to this set a few times here or there, as it has many ballet treasures played at the proper tempi, and well perfromed by the Bolshoi theatre orchestra. Unfortunatly this set is out of print...

So, just to make sure I have the right pas, is the male variation a waltz? and is the female solo a fast polka like number?

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I have one more question about Minkus's "Paquita". I've just got a CD with the music (conducted by Spassov) and one of the variations (no. II, track 22) is ascribed in the track list to POUNI (the previous one is by Delibes). My question: is POUNI a funny (erronoeus) spelling of (Cesare) Pougni or is it a different composer? Tried to find out on my own but all hits on the web refer to this very recording and the search seems fruitless.

Thanks a lot!

Iza

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There was a broadcast from Canada, which is complete with "clap yo' hands", original cast with the exception of Jacques d' Amboise, who was replaced for that performance by Jean-Pierre Bonnefous. The library at Lincoln Center has a copy.  It's on a tape with Tarantella and Movements for Piano and Orchestra.

There was a recording made of WHO CARES back in the early 1990s by ANdrew Litton(I think) and the Liverpool Philharmonic.

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After listening to this recording I have to say I was, well, just a little dissapointed.

For starters, the extended harp arpeggios were missing from the White Adagio in the 2nd act (or in the Kirovs case, Act 1 scene 2), and it was just the standard Tchaikovsky candenza that was played (though most beautifully - I mean this person on the harp really made up for it with some magnificent playing!). This harp solo was extended by Drigo, but is missing here.

The Pas de trios was another let down, for starters the ending of the entree is terribly rushed (and by a ballet conductor!), the 1st variation is not the 1895 edition but the standard Tchaikovsky, with a rushed tempo and ending.

The Variation of Odette in the 2nd act is played WAY to fast, with a criminally sped up ending. I could not believe that Fedotov recorded the music this way!

The waltz of the swans in the 2nd act (right before the white adagio) again had a horribly rushed ending. Such fast playing would make the classical choreography impossible.

The Variaitons of both Siegried and Odille in the Act III (or act 2 in Russia) Grand Pas were both rushed through. I must say the entree and grand adagio was played wonderfully. But the worst of all was the coda, played by the Mariinksy Orchestra at a speed that would have made 32 foutees for any ballerina impossible. I have a recording tilted "The Art of the Prima Ballerina" on CD that has Richard Bonynge conducting the Londond Symphony. This disc has the traditional Black Swan Pas as reworked by Drigo in 1895 and his conducting is far better!

The Valse Bluette (from Tchaikovskys op.72 for piano orchestrated by Drigo) performed by the Swans in the last act was well played, but the harp introduction was missing............

After listening to this recording I was left thinking "where did Fedotov get this score?" It was, in subtle ways, very different from the one used today by the Kirov. You really have to listen to find it (I know the Kirov score and the original score inside out), but there are, in certain places, differences in orchestration, repeats where none should have been, missing harp introductions etc. all through this recording.

Im not going to go so far as to say that this recording is a let down, but I guess I expected this recording to sound EXACLTY the same as it would have if Fedotov had dancers right in front of him. I compared the way he conducted on a video I have of the Kirovs Swan Lake with Makhalina and Zelensky with this recording, and I was left wondering, after having conducted this ballet so many times (he always conducts from memory as the liner notes of the CD say) what happend when he and the orchestra went into the studio????

I also purchased along with these Swan lake CDs, his recording of Raymonda. This, like the Swan Lake recording is of the performance score. And strangely enough his conducting for Raymoda is exaclty as it would be for the stage.

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No, the Odalisque Pas de Trois doesn't sound like Minkus big time. It is different from most of his other compositions but I do believe Minkus either orchestrated (very unlikely) Pugni's tunes seeing as Minkus was Pugni's contemporary or Pugni took some of Minkus' rejected tunes from one of his other ballets and orchestrated that.

I have recently found out that Minkus never actually wrote orchestrations for his pieces. He left that to someone else. All Minkus did was write the tunes and accompaniment for them and let someone else put them into orchestration because all Minkus played was the violin. But it was common to "borrow" tunes from other people when Pugni was around though that was starting to change by the time Minkus came about. That's why we have heard the familiar tunes of "The Pas de Quatre" by Pugni. Here is something I wrote in another forum about this forum because for some reason I couldn't register. It has stuff about Le Corsaire and I'm hoping some of you can clear a few things up or discuss at least:

"I would really love to discuss the music from "Le Corsaire". I find it so interesting that so many composers are credited (Adam, Delibes, Pugni, Drigo, Oldenbourg) for a single ballet, yet some (at least one vital one) are left out. Adolphe Adam was the original composer of the ballet, then Pugni's music was entered and then Delibes' and Drigo's. Pugni's part was as far as I can tell, part of the slave pas de deux (sometimes a pas de deux a trois) and the Odalisque Pas de Trois and some Pas d'Actions (action scenes). Delibes' contribution was the Pas de Fleurs or the Jardin Anime, though I have alot to argue about this. Drigo's contribution was part of the slave pas de deux but I am sure he would have had to have composed much more to be credited. I am not even sure what Prince Oldenbourg's contribution was! I am amazed that Minkus is left out of the credits. I heard from someone that Pugni adapted Minkus' music for the Odalisque Pas de Trois but I don't think this is true to the full extent. Minkus is Pugni's contemporary and I doubt Minkus would have composed anything for Pugni to have adapted. Also, all of Minkus' compositions were from ballets so surely we would have heard this Pas de Trois somewhere else and I haven't. Though interestingly enough, on a ballet class CD of mine, the second variation from the Odalisque Pas de Trois is credited to both Pugni and Minkus (C. Pugni-A.L. Minkus is what it says). I think maybe a few of the tunes may have been Minkus' but I am not sure. I have also heard someone say that this pas de trois is very "typically Minkus" and it is most certainly not. The pieces are actually quite complex and Minkus never did anything like it.

Another point, the Jardin Anime or the Pas de Fleurs, is entirely credited to Delibes. I find this VERY hard to believe. Gulnare's variation is nothing like anything Delibes has ever composed. It is completely different from his usual styles. The orchestration differs entirely from what he usually does. I may be wrong but I believe he didn't compose that piece. I have also heard different orchestrations of the piece used in some productions of "Paquita" which again leads us back to Minkus but this piece is not in the appendix score. Medora's variation is most certainly not Delibes. I think it may be Minkus but I am not sure. It appears in the score for Don Quixote (Minkus) as "Classical Variation I". But, on another ballet class CD of mine ("A Class from St Petersburg") that piece is credited to some guy called Ivanov who I haven't even heard of. It is certainly a different orchestration from the Don Q one but that doesn't mean Delibes can take the credit for someone elses work. The same person that said the Odalisque Pas de Trois was "typically Minkus" also said that the Jardin Anime was "typically Minkus" aswell. The Pas de Trois and the Pas de Fleurs differ so much! How can they BOTH be typically Minkus? The music for the Pas de Trois is simple in structure, but complex in notes and accompaniment. The music for the Jardin is simple and "cutesy". Minkus' music was simple, yes, but it definately was never "cutesy" take a look at four of his most well-known ballets ("Don Q", "La Bayadere", "Paquita" (only the Grand Pas and the Pas de Trois are his), "La Source") and you will find no music like it. Also, the orchestrations are too lush for Minkus and anyone who is familiar with his real music that hasn't been reorchestrated by someone else will know that Minkus' orchestrations weren't exactly textured.

I do believe that music for a ballet should definately stay with ONE composer. I have no idea why Petipa and Perrot didn't call upon Adam to put the appendixes in the score. If you have more than one composer, every single piece of music should be documented which composer composed what. I am surprised that the composers didn't have enough pride of their music to write their name on every single page let alone every single piece."

If anyone has more information on the music of "Le Corsaire" please let me know.

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Minkus composed alot of music for Giselle that was later scrapped when Minkus became unfashionable due to Tchaikovsky. Minkus' story is a seriously tragic one. But yeah... he wrote heaps of it and most of it's been lost but obviously some of it survives. It never worked because Minkus' music is so completely different to Adam's. Petipa wanted to add Minkus' work into the ballet because he thought it was too short. Personally, I think the ballet is way too long and boring. But I do love the Peasant Pas de Deux. It would have been refreshing to hear something with an easy tune when Minkus' music was added and I believe audiences back then enjoyed it.

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You have gotten yourself into a lot of trouble lol! La Fille mal Gardee is possibly the most confusing ballet ever! It's history is like AAAH! Ashton's revival is to music by Herold which was changed from the music by Hertel I believe it was and Hertel's music was just traditional folk melodies and then the original choreography to Hertel's music was scrapped and changed into Ashton's but then the original choreography was revived and is still popular but Ashton's is in UK and Australia. So I'm sorry, I can't help you but I believe you can only get recordings of Herold's score. And if you're talking about a "second act pas de deux" it's probably Ashton's one.

Confusing huh? :thanks::toot:

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This is just like... phrasing. Usually you have 16-count phrase (sometimes 8) which is repeated, then you go onto another phrase of the same amount and you come back to the first phrase again before finishing with a small coda. So the form kinda looks like this: ABAC for a classical variation.

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God, it makes me shiver just thinking about reconstructions. YOU CAN'T DO IT. If the ballet's lost it's lost. Okay:

Minkus wrote the GRAND PAS and the PAS DE TROIS. In Lacotte's its the first act pas de trois and I believe it's the whole wedding scene. Buy a CD of Minkus' Paquita and listen to it and you'll figure out which parts he wrote.

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