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2022 Winter Olympics


dirac

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I felt sorry for Trusova and saw her outburst as an explosion of adolescent rage. She's a product of this toxic system too. It's tragic she couldn't be happy about winning a silver medal. Also incredibly sad to see Scherbakova sitting all alone in the "kiss and cry" after just winning gold. The whole Valieva saga has been heartbreaking, to say the least. 

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1 hour ago, JuliaJ said:

It's tragic she couldn't be happy about winning a silver medal.

Google the phrase "settles for bronze" and you'll get page after page after page of results. Every time I see one of those "settles for bronze" headlines, my heart breaks a little—not because the athletes in question didn't win a gold, but because they medaled in an olympic or world championship event and all that seems to matter to the press is that it wasn't a gold medal. In my book, just making it onto an Olympic team is worthy of celebration—medaling, whatever the color of the medal, is icing on the cake.

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Whereas the truism is that bronze medal winners are often much happier and more satisfied than silver medal winners.  Often, like Sakamoto, they are dark horses coming in and are thrilled to be on the podium, while silver is seen as Not Gold.  Anything but a sweep for the Russian women was unthinkable before Valieva's drug test results became known.

Figure skating is very different from the traditional winter sports where there is a multi-month circuit in which the athletes travel around like a pack, and World Cup titles, in addition to World Championships and the Olympics every four years, plus "slams" like the Four Hills championship in ski-jumping, so that consistency and excellence over a long period is rewarded.  In those sports you see athletes winning combinations of medals over three or four or five Olympics, and keeping that streak alive is lauded and valuable.  Of course, those are mostly sports where .5 seconds is considered doom or an invincible lead...  I wonder if the feelings about the medals are different for athletes in those sports, although Russian gold medal winners are given a bonus, real estate, a car, and a lifetime stipend, and Trusova's second place cost her a mint.

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3 hours ago, JuliaJ said:

I felt sorry for Trusova and saw her outburst as an explosion of adolescent rage. She's a product of this toxic system too. It's tragic she couldn't be happy about winning a silver medal. Also incredibly sad to see Scherbakova sitting all alone in the "kiss and cry" after just winning gold. The whole Valieva saga has been heartbreaking, to say the least. 

I felt the same. Tutberidze.....I have no words.

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I did not feel sorry for Trusova.  Scherbakova  skated better than Trusova and therefore she won by some 4 points.  Trusova has almost no artistry or interpretive skills. Also, she faltered on some of her jumps.  Scherbakova was the clear winner, fair and square.  Trusova's infantile outburst was disgraceful.

 

Edited by abatt
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2 hours ago, Kathleen O'Connell said:

Google the phrase "settles for bronze" and you'll get page after page after page of results. Every time I see one of those "settles for bronze" headlines, my heart breaks a little—not because the athletes in question didn't win a gold, but because they medaled in an olympic or world championship event and all that seems to matter to the press is that it wasn't a gold medal. In my book, just making it onto an Olympic team is worthy of celebration—medaling, whatever the color of the medal, is icing on the cake.

The athletes often feel the same, or as Brian Orser once put it, "The gold medal is it. It. It," and no man is better situated to know. If you are in contention for the gold, of course second place will be disappointing, even crushing in some cases. As Helene notes, if you a a dark horse you'll be well pleased with second or third - Elizabeth Manley was delighted with her silver in 1988 and so I imagine was the Canadian press. But your main point is correct.

I do think that many athletes are pleased just to be there and call themselves Olympians.

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58 minutes ago, dirac said:

I do think that many athletes are pleased just to be there and call themselves Olympians.

Here are a couple:

Alyssa Liu, 8th in the Short Program, 7th in the Free Skate, and 7th overall, and who was widely expected to be the Women's selection to the Team Event, where US was expected to vie for gold if enough ducks fell in a row --  more realistically, earn silver -- but was bypassed, along with US Champion Mariah Bell, and who would have every reason to be bitter, since she was never in real contention for an individual medal:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CaFPA5mLNd7/

Ashley Cain-Gribble after the Pairs Short Program:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CaHzauMuOZ3/

She and Tim LeDuc did not make the 2018 Olympic team after a disappointing 4th place skate at 2018 US Nationals.

[Edited to add] And here's a judge's point of view about her own participation:

https://www.thestar.com/sports/olympics/2022/02/15/beijing-behind-the-scenes-canadian-figure-skating-judge-loves-being-on-the-hot-seat.html

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Thanks for all the discussion.

I really try not to write out of emotion, unless it's a good one, and nothing seems to be totally black or white, but I have to largely concur with the bitterness expressed here and across a lot of the internet towards 'those responsible' surrounding Kamila Valieva. I feel that her coach(s), 'medical advisor(s),' etc. should be as thoroughly investigated and restrained as may be warranted and is possible. 

I would also like to mention that this is not the only topic at Ballet Alert! where  humaneness has been discussed. Comments about the Bolshoi's Artistic Director Makhar Vaziev and some others also come to mind. 

I can certainly sympathise with Kamila Valieva's very young age, without necessarily granting her total innocence status, and I do feel a great deal of sadness and love for her. I can hope for her as well. 

So what can we hope for for her ?

Former British Olympic gold medallist, Robin Cousins, who covered the event for British television and who apparently "broke down in tears live on TV while discussing Kamila Valieva's Beijing disaster" during the Free Skate, offered this.

"Someone thought having her do that was better than having her go home to her family and to wait and sort this out, knowing she could have two more Olympics ahead of her," he said.

https://www.businessinsider.in/sports/news/an-olympic-skating-legend-broke-down-in-tears-live-on-tv-while-discussing-kamila-valievas-beijing-disaster/amp_articleshow/89670389.cms

Is there more for her in skating ?  Is another shot at the Olympics possible ?  Hopefully.

And beyond that, she's mentioned that some of the things that she'd like to do are photography, travel and modern dance. 

(Rehearsing with Olga Smirnova)
https://www.instagram.com/p/CaCMIrwApHz/

(thanks to Sophia at Dansomanie)

Hopefully there will be happiness and reward somewhere for her and justice and hope for the entire situation.


 

Edited by Buddy
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18 minutes ago, Buddy said:

Thanks for all the discussion.

 

Is there more for her in skating ?  Is another shot at the Olympics possible ?  Hopefully.

 

 


 

In any other country, I would say that she has more Olympic competitions in her future.  Under the system in Russia, however, the fact is that most of the women figure skaters are gone after one Olympic cycle.  There will be a 15 year old  waiting in the wings who can do a quintuple jump, and team Tuberidze will always promote that skater.  Unlike the US and some other countries, where figure skaters are around competition for a up to a decade on the senior circuit, this simply does not happen in  Russian ladies figure skating.  

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54 minutes ago, abatt said:

In any other country, I would say that she has more Olympic competitions in her future.  Under the system in Russia, however, the fact is that most of the women figure skaters are gone after one Olympic cycle.  There will be a 15 year old  waiting in the wings who can do a quintuple jump, and team Tuberidze will always promote that skater.  Unlike the US and some other countries, where figure skaters are around competition for a up to a decade on the senior circuit, this simply does not happen in  Russian ladies figure skating.  

Thanks, Abatt. Maybe there's more to the future of figure skating than this current approach. Robin Cousins implies that she could appear again at the Olympics.

Added: And my usual caveat based on personal experience in regard to the future of figure skating. I wouldn't set foot on the ice without a helmet. Surely in our space age, an attractive and effective one could be produced.
 

Edited by Buddy
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58 minutes ago, abatt said:

In any other country, I would say that she has more Olympic competitions in her future.  Under the system in Russia, however, the fact is that most of the women figure skaters are gone after one Olympic cycle.  There will be a 15 year old  waiting in the wings who can do a quintuple jump, and team Tuberidze will always promote that skater.  Unlike the US and some other countries, where figure skaters are around competition for a up to a decade on the senior circuit, this simply does not happen in  Russian ladies figure skating.  

I recall some poignant interviews with Katarina Witt of East Germany. She pleaded with the government to let her tour in the west, as western peers did after their Olympic success. She was actually on a limited European tour when the Berlin Wall fell. She told sad stories of predecessors in East Germany pushed to win Olympic medals to show the "superiority" of the communist system and then dumped in favor of the next generation of Olympic stars, left to do nothing but perhaps teach when they could have toured for years had they been in the capitalist west. The Soviet Union fell three decades ago, but some of the old attitudes don't seem to have changed much. 

Edited by California
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In most countries, there is one entry until there is a dominant skater who earns a second entry, and then a younger or series of young skaters gets that second spot, unless it's a discipline where no one else qualifies.   It is how Carolina Kostner (4), Thomas Verner (3), and Michal Brezina (4), for all of their talent, were able to weather periods in which their results weren't stellar and have/had been able to compete in multiple Olympics.

But even in countries with a lot of competition, aside from Russia, women do, indeed, return:  Sakamoto competed in 2018, when Higuchi was the next senior-eligible skater in line, and Miyahara, who also competed in 2018, attempted dto make the team again this year, finishing a disappointing 5th at Japanese Nationals.  

If the ISU members do pass either the current resolution to raise the minimum age of 15 to 16 in 2022-23 and from 16 to 17 in 2023-24, rather than accelerating that schedule in light of the CAS ruling, then one more year of young skaters will be allowed in, but they will still have to last through three competive senior seasons to the 2026 Olympics. 

But, because ISU age rules are always as of the beginning of the season, July 1, if the age limit had been 17 when all of Tutberidze's wunderkinder skated from 2014, at the time any of had skated,

  • Sotnikova would have been eligible from 2013-14, and no 2013 Worlds (by one day)
  • Medvedeva would have been eligible from 2017-18, and no 2016 or 2017 Worlds, Europeans, and Grand Prix Finals, all of which she won
  • Scherbakova would have been eligible from 2021-22, and no 2021 Worlds gold or Europeans and Grand Prix Final silvers.
  • Trusova would also have been eligible from 2021-22, and no World, European, or Grand Prix Final bronze

There would have been:

  • No Lipnitskaia until the 2015-16 season, her last, and no Olympic Team Gold, European Championship, or World silver in 2014
  • No Radionova until the 2016-17 season, and no World bronze in 2015
  • No Zagitova until the 2019-20 season, and no Olympic gold in 2018 or World gold in 2019
  • No Valieva until the 2023-24 season
  • No Kostornaia until the 2021-22 season, and no European or Grand Prix Final gold

That is not to say that there weren't plenty of skaters from around the world and non-Tutberidze skaters from Russia who would not have been eligible when they first skated -- Lipinski would have been first eligible in 1999-2000, Kwan in 1998-99, Yamaguchi in 1990-91, Sarah Hughes in 2002-03, Ito in 1987-88, Karen Chen in 2017-18, Flatt and Nagasu in 2010-11, Edmunds in 2015-16, Asada in 2008-9, Leonova in 2008-09, Sotskova in 2017-18, Tuktamysheva in 2014-15, Pogorilaya in 2015-16 -- but most of them skated longer than two-three years in the senior ranks, aside from Lipinski.

And that's not to say that Sotnikova or Medvedeva or Scherbakova or Trusova would not have been able to go straight to the Olympic podium in their first season, but I think it would have been less likely without the systematic push to raise the level of women's skating in Russia before Sochi and the young skaters who did it.

If the age rules change, then Valieva has to worry about one group behind her, but the skaters behind them have to wait two years instead of one, and the skaters behind them will have to wait three years instead of one to be age-eligible.  That's a lot of training and waiting and only competing in the junior ranks for another three seasons for most of the up-and-comers.  

 

3 hours ago, nanushka said:

If there’s ever a time to retire the (IMO) outmoded phrase “ladies’ figure skating,” this Olympics must be it.

They did: It's officially Women's skating:

https://results.isu.org/results/season2122/owg2022/index.htm

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Valieva received a hero's welcome back home in Russia,  where she is considered a hapless victim of the Olympic system,  instead of a drug cheat whose handlers blew their timing on the dosage.  They let her skate,  although any other athlete with a failed drug test would have been sent home in disgrace before sundown.  I don't feel sorry for her in the least,  as I have no doubt she knew she was taking a banned substance.  Tutberidze's girls aren't allowed a swallow of water without supervision.  Blaming it on grandpa sealed the deal for me.

For me,  the only question is whether Valieva fell apart because of pressure,  nerves,  or lack of her usual pharmaceutical help,  or did she take a dive.  In practice before the free skate,  she landed every element.  The idea that EVERY Olympic skater would lose their potential moment of glory to accomodate Valieva was a hypocritical,  grossly unfair decision.  Imagine the meltdown if Trusova had won gold and Valieva won bronze or silver?  I thought Trusova was going to swing on somebody,  which was at least an honest,  unorchestrated reaction.  If skaters are too young to follow the rules,  they're too young to be participating.

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15 hours ago, On Pointe said:

I don't feel sorry for her in the least,  as I have no doubt she knew she was taking a banned substance.

Quite possibly — though if she did, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that she was made to feel she didn't have a choice. I can easily imagine quite convincing threats made against herself, her loved ones, etc. Tutberidze and her skaters are part of a much larger, corrupt system.

Edited by nanushka
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I can only imagine the pressures exerted upon Valieva and others, and I'd say the same if Valieva were several years older than she is. Should she have been allowed to skate? No. Should she face consequences? Yes. But focusing on her as an individual makes little sense in this context. As the official reception in Russia reflects, all the positive reinforcement is in the wrong direction.

I was a mite amused by Thomas Bach saying that he was shocked, shocked, by Tutberidze's callousness as caught on camera. As Travis Tygart said in an article posted earlier on this thread, the IOC has done much to "incentivize" this behavior.

Quote

If the age rules change, then Valieva has to worry about one group behind her, but the skaters behind them have to wait two years instead of one, and the skaters behind them will have to wait three years instead of one to be age-eligible.  That's a lot of training and waiting and only competing in the junior ranks for another three seasons for most of the up-and-comers.

 Sure is.....

https://www.rt.com/sport/550043-tutberidze-valieva-jackals-beijing/

Quote

"Back to practice," Tutberidze captioned it.

I certainly hope not.

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On 2/18/2022 at 1:04 PM, Buddy said:

Former British Olympic gold medallist, Robin Cousins, who covered the event for British television and who apparently "broke down in tears live on TV while discussing Kamila Valieva's Beijing disaster" during the Free Skate, offered this.

"Someone thought having her do that was better than having her go home to her family and to wait and sort this out, knowing she could have two more Olympics ahead of her," he said.

https://www.businessinsider.in/sports/news/an-olympic-skating-legend-broke-down-in-tears-live-on-tv-while-discussing-kamila-valievas-beijing-disaster/amp_articleshow/89670389.cms

 

Thanks, Buddy. I've always liked Cousins' commentating when I've had occasion to hear it. Unfortunately, as others have already noted, the assumption for Valieva among those closest to her was probably that in Olympic gold terms she is one-and-done.

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4 hours ago, nanushka said:

I can easily imagine convincing enough threats made against herself, her loved ones, etc.

The threat is that you follow the protocol and get elite training plus stipend paid by governments, the opportunity to compete, adoration of the public, lucrative sponsorships, opportunities to skate for decades in a thriving and ice show environment and skating/skating and dancing TV competition series after your competitive career, and if you win the Olympics, a car, an apartment in Moscow, and a stipend for life.  Or you don't, and it all goes away.

It's actually a lot like most jobs, if you don't have someone with power who has your your back or a strong union.

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3 minutes ago, Helene said:

The threat is that you follow the protocol and get elite training plus stipend paid by governments, the opportunity to compete, adoration of the public, lucrative sponsorships, opportunities to skate for decades in a thriving and ice show environment and skating/skating and dancing TV competition series after your competitive career, and if you win the Olympics, a car, an apartment in Moscow, and a stipend for life.  Or you don't, and it all goes away.

Those are incentives — or their absence. I'm thinking genuine threats. I would not be at all surprised. (And if so, then moral censure of her as an individual becomes even more difficult.)

Edited by nanushka
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I don't think they need actual threats, particularly at Tutberidze's rink: they already have 14-year-olds with triple axels and multiple quads to take over.  Which skater has never been the point.

Why do ballet students and dancers hide injuries and eating disorders/disordered eating, from their parents and companies?  They know there is someone to take their place.  That is true of elite athletes as well, amplified in sports like skating and gymnastics and many of the "X" sports where many of the athletes are so young.

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