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2022 Winter Olympics


dirac

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Chen was terrific in the short and really good in the long. Outstanding Olympic performance and a well deserved gold. 

I've seen Brown do better - that Biellmann was not so pretty - but he was fine. Very good showing by the men.

We learn Valieva's fate on Sunday. 

Did anyone see the rhythm dance?

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Valieva will be allowed to compete.

I couldn't have been happy to see her disallowed, because it's a sad -- devastating -- situation for her. But I still find it unspeakably depressing that she is being permitted to skate.

One of the reasons given by the CAS is her status as a minor, and I personally hope this causes figure skating to revisit the age of competitors at the Olympics and International competitions. (If you are too young to answer for drugs in your system, then maybe you are too young to compete when the stakes are this high.  Fewer triple axels or quads at the competitions? especially as performed by immature bodies? I can live with that.)

I feel incredibly sorry for the other skaters. As for Valieva's team-mates: in my mind, the asterisk next to her name extends to them.

(Will I watch the ladies competition? Haven't decided, but quite possibly. Mr. Drew on the other hand--who loved Valieva in the team competition--definitely will not.)

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8 minutes ago, Drew said:

and I personally hope this causes figure skating to revisit the age of competitors at the Olympics and International competitions

There is a proposal by the Netherlands Federation that has been endorsed by the ISU Council and will go up to the membership for a vote at the next ISU Congress.  The proposal is that the age rules won't change for 2022-23, since the Congress won't convene until after this season ends, and all healthy skaters have already planned for next season (if they're planning to compete), but will be raised to 16 in 2023-25 and to 17 in 2024-25, in time for the 2026 Olympics.  The ISU has already postponed the Junior World Championships until May, given the COVID-19 situation in Bulgaria.

A change to 16 would mean that all skaters are subject to the same rules as adults.

Papadakis and Cizeron skated an exquisite program to Faure for their Free Dance to win the Olympic Gold Medal in Ice Dance.  :flowers: :flowers: :flowers:.

 

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If there was any question about raising the age limit to at least 16 I expect this episode will remove it. However, this debacle has less to do with age limits IMO than the failure to ban all Russian athletes outright from competition in the first place during the period of the two-year "ban." I realize that would have been unfair to the Russian athletes not doping, assuming there are any, but this is unfair to everyone.

Of course, it's idiotic that Valieva's age is being used as an excuse to allow her to remain in the competition.

I actually hope for her sake that she does not compete regardless of this foolish decision, although I will be sorry not to see her.

I also hope that this leads to consequences of some negative kind for Tutberidze, but not holding my breath for that.

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11 hours ago, Drew said:

(Will I watch the ladies competition? Haven't decided, but quite possibly. Mr. Drew on the other hand--who loved Valieva in the team competition--definitely will not.)

I went cold turkey on the Olympics more than 20 years ago because of this kind of thing: the endless doping, cheating, corruption, hypocrisy. The time has long since passed to put an end to the IOC and their filthy colossus.

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10 hours ago, dirac said:

If there was any question about raising the age limit to at least 16 I expect this episode will remove it. However, this debacle has less to do with age limits IMO than the failure to ban all Russian athletes outright from competition in the first place during the period of the two-year "ban." I realize that would have been unfair to the Russian athletes not doping, assuming there are any, but this is unfair to everyone.

 

I completely agree, but the way it has played out in this particular case also foregrounds problems with having minors compete.  (Of course it's hardly the case the case that seventeen-year olds are likely to be that much savvier than fifteen-year olds in terms of dealing with coaches and adults around them, but at least their age can't be used, as Valieva's has been, to the detriment of fair play for everyone else.)

 

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7 hours ago, Drew said:

I completely agree, but the way it has played out in this particular case also foregrounds problems with having minors compete.

Only if you buy into the logic that her age should be considered as a factor in whether she be allowed to complete after having tested positive for a banned substance — which doesn't seem at all logical to me. I don't understand what the one has to do with the other. Her age should impact who is held responsible, not whether she skates in competition. Her presence on the ice, after a positive test, renders the whole competition a bizarre exercise in overlooking the obviously relevant. It calls into question the significance of the entire event. I don't think it should matter whether she is 18 or 15, or whether the substance got into her by force, in ignorance, or with her willing consent. Once it's there, she should be out. Yes, it may be sad that she as a (possibly innocent) minor should have to pay that price for the mistakes of her elders — but the competition makes no sense if she skates, IMO.

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4 hours ago, nanushka said:

Only if you buy into the logic that her age should be considered as a factor in whether she be allowed to complete after having tested positive for a banned substance — which doesn't seem at all logical to me. I don't understand what the one has to do with the other. Her age should impact who is held responsible, not whether she skates in competition. Her presence on the ice, after a positive test, renders the whole competition a bizarre exercise in overlooking the obviously relevant. It calls into question the significance of the entire event. I don't think it should matter whether she is 18 or 15, or whether the substance got into her by force, in ignorance, or with her willing consent. Once it's there, she should be out. Yes, it may be sad that she as a (possibly innocent) minor should have to pay that price for the mistakes of her elders — but the competition makes no sense if she skates, IMO.

I don’t buy into the logic that her age should be considered a factor and apparently WADA doesn't either...but the CAS did, so it played a big role in their justification for their decision. Of course, that could be bulls**t—and they were just grabbing around for excuses. My view is the same as yours. (Though I also would like to see the age of skaters at senior events raised.)

 

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WADA code specifically calls out the situations in which "protected person" status based on age is applicable, including not releasing the person's name as mandatory, the burden of proof, and, the severity of the punishment.  It does not apply explicitly to the temporary suspension issue, which was the subject of the appeal to CAS by multiple organizations.

WADA argued that if they had wanted different "protected person" standards, they would have written them.  CAS ruled that they were implicit and made part of their decision based on this.

There is plenty of outrage among skating professionals, even a few within Russia, like from Irina Rodnina (scroll):

https://english.pravda.ru/amp/sports/150323-kamila_valieva/

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5 hours ago, nanushka said:

Only if you buy into the logic that her age should be considered as a factor in whether she be allowed to complete after having tested positive for a banned substance — which doesn't seem at all logical to me. I don't understand what the one has to do with the other. Her age should impact who is held responsible, not whether she skates in competition. 

Agreed. 

An article by Jeré Longman in the NYT on the dilemma facing athletes in countries with systematic doping:

Quote

“Let’s also be clear that doped athletes in Russia are, in many ways, victims, too,” Grigory Rodchenkov, a chemist who helped devise, and blew the whistle on, the elaborate doping system used at the Sochi Games, wrote in The New York Times in 2017. “In the Russian system, they do not have much choice but to cheat, even if some did so enthusiastically. Many, even most, would prefer to compete without doping, without the constant fear of getting caught.”

Obviously it's rougher when someone as young as Valieva is involved, but an 18-year-old is just as vulnerable in such a system, potentially.  But in any case, after testing positive they should not skate, regardless.

Quote

The International Olympic Committee, which continues to be criticized because it never made Russia pay meaningful consequences for state-sponsored doping — and “likely incentivized it,” Tygart said — just as the I.O.C. looked the other way with East Germany.

Related:

Quote

 

“The main element [of the CAS decision was] if the athlete was to be suspended the athlete would not be able to participate in the Games and the damage to her would be irreparable,” Oswald said. “Whereas the medal can always be withdrawn. That was apparently the reasoning [of CAS]. We have to respect that decision......

In the past, anti-doping agencies have taken a harsh stance on stories of accidental contamination. Athletes in various sports have blamed food, over the counter medicine or vitamins. A grandfather’s heart medication might be a new one though.

 

 

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I think the damage to the other athletes who will win medals should be factored in.  The medal ceremony and having your country's anthem played as your flag is waving is part of the experience of a lifelong quest to be an Olympic medalist.  The other medalists are now robbed of this experience because of the conduct of one skater and her entourage.  Not fair.

 

Just heard on the news that KV (through her attorney) has claimed that the contamination occurred because of a medication her grandfather takes.  Sounds fishy to me,  unless her grandfather ground up his medication and put it into  KV's food or drink.  I regularly administer medication to my mother, so it's possible that traces of medication remain on my hands if I don't wash them after touching the med. However, would a 15 year old have any direct contact with the meds of her grandfather?  Not likely. 

Up until this point I had sympathy for KV due to her age, but this explanation seems so false that I've lost any sympathy. 

Edited by abatt
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The rumored explanation [edited to add: actually not a rumor anymore] also made me uncomfortable to say the least--I find it implausible especially from an athlete who has regularly been subjected to drug testing throughout her career and thus knows something about the importance of what goes into her body. (When Tara Lipinski and Johnny Weir were discussing the decision, and talking about their own awareness of doping issues when still very young competitors, Tara said that when she was in a competition she wouldn't touch a poppy-seed bagel--a line that would be funny under other circumstances.)

One imagines the "grandfather" story was concocted for her by the team around her--especially since 'I was taking vitamins given to me by my coaches' would implicate them--but unfortunately, her putting it forward, very much implicates her in the corruption. Again--she is young and is doing presumably what she is being told or encouraged to do and perhaps what she herself thinks "everyone" does --I still have some sympathy for her as a person and as a very young person who is, in many ways, a pawn...but the whole thing is disheartening.

And having read @Helene's post... Brava to the marvelous Irina Rodnina!! I remember her as a great champion...and now I can add to those memories, because taking the position she has can't be popular or easy in Russia.

Edited by Drew
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1 hour ago, Drew said:

. . . Tara said that when she was in a competition she wouldn't touch a poppy-seed bagel--a line that would be funny under other circumstances.

Tara was right to be concerned. I remember travelling with somebody who was subject to random drug testing at work who was also super-careful to avoid poppy seeds.

https://www.usada.org/spirit-of-sport/education/can-poppyseeds-cause-a-positive-drug-test/

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6 hours ago, California said:

Tara was right to be concerned. I remember travelling with somebody who was subject to random drug testing at work who was also super-careful to avoid poppy seeds.

https://www.usada.org/spirit-of-sport/education/can-poppyseeds-cause-a-positive-drug-test/

I also heard Tara Lipinski say that when she was a kid, if she had a cold, her mother called the authorities before giving her cold medications to make sure all the ingredients were OK for her to have. It seems young athletes and their families develop a super awareness, as they should.

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2 hours ago, vipa said:

I also heard Tara Lipinski say that when she was a kid, if she had a cold, her mother called the authorities before giving her cold medications to make sure all the ingredients were OK for her to have. It seems young athletes and their families develop a super awareness, as they should.

Sure, because taking the wrong medication could have severe consequences, which is how the rower Silken Laumann lost the gold medal she won at the 1995 Pan-Am Games. Ultimately she was able to evade long-term suspension by convincing the world rowing federation that she had been given bad advice by team doctors, and in 1996 she competed in Atlanta and won the silver medal.

https://archive.macleans.ca/article/1995/4/3/laumanns-lament

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3 hours ago, vipa said:

I also heard Tara Lipinski say that when she was a kid, if she had a cold, her mother called the authorities before giving her cold medications to make sure all the ingredients were OK for her to have. It seems young athletes and their families develop a super awareness, as they should.

Yes: Johnny Weir spoke about the same things. I'm willing to believe that a lot is different in Russia especially with the coaches controlling so much of their skaters' lives outright--but I don't believe Valieva was simply unaware of the need to be sensitive about what goes into her body. She may well have been lied to by her coaches, but they now appear to have her lying--which is poisoning her in yet another way.

(If Valieva had been sent home, then I'd likely have been rooting for her to come back clean and do well in the future. And I'd probably even have been okay with a shorter suspension due to age especially if the role of those around her was also being looked into seriously--and not simply by Russia's own doping agency. But...as it is...)

Edited by Drew
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9 hours ago, Drew said:

Did watch the Ladies Short as covered by NBC in Primetime. By far and away my favorite skater was Kaori Sakamoto--Hoping she pulls off a spectacular upset on Thursday or at least ends up with a medal....

She was a bit of fresh air in all of this, wasn't she.

Added: I do hope that all this can be settled as fairly and compassionately as possible.

Edited by Buddy
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15 hours ago, vipa said:

I also heard Tara Lipinski say that when she was a kid, if she had a cold, her mother called the authorities before giving her cold medications to make sure all the ingredients were OK for her to have. It seems young athletes and their families develop a super awareness, as they should.

Unfortunately, in Russia the super awareness goes all the other way. As the Longman article points out, they face an additional set of pressures. I have no idea what the dynamic is within Valieva's family and her team and what kind of influences are at work on her, although I'm guessing they're not good. I don't want to suggest she's entirely without responsibility but based on the information I have this really isn't a matter of individual agency. The presence of three drugs suggests a sophisticated plan. IMO, the main culprits are the Russian doping culture and system and the IOC for failing to deal with the Russians effectively. (And no, she shouldn't be skating.)

That said, she skated beautifully, all things considered. Head and shoulders above the rest. She probably doesn't even need the damn stuff, unless she has some underlying health problem we don't know about.

A Slate article on Tutberidze's methods:

Quote

Tutberidze has come to be regarded as the world’s leading expert in creating figure skating champions. Her methods are no secret. The Eteri girls talk openly about not being able to drink water during competitions. They do their best to delay puberty by eating only “powdered nutrients,” or by taking Lupron, a puberty blocker known to induce menopause. They are subjected to daily public weigh-ins and verbal and physical abuse. And they compete while injured, huffing “smelling salts” while wearing knee braces and collapsing in pain after programs.

 

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20 minutes ago, Buddy said:

 

Added: I do hope that all this can be settled as fairly and compassionately as possible.

Unfortunately, it already hasn't been. It's way too late for this to be a fair Olympics (or a fair European Nationals -- I forbear comment on the Russian National Championships). Every clean skater out there is being treated unfairly. Arguably, every Olympic athlete who has been banned for a doping violation has been treated unfairly. 

And adults giving heart medication to a youngster who, according to what they themselves have been saying, does not have a heart problem can be put at the top of the list for lacking compassion for the skater(s) placed in their care. (For athletes who do have heart problems--there is a mechanism to get permission to used banned medications....)

9 minutes ago, dirac said:

 IMO, the main culprits are the Russian doping culture and system and the IOC for failing to deal with the Russians effectively. (And no, she shouldn't be skating.)

 

The main culprits yes...

Edited by Drew
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