Finlay Resigns, Catazaro and Ramasar Suspended -- Update: Catazaro and Ramasar Fired

[aurora]

Just now, FPF said:

 Catazaro

My apologies for a typo. The point stands.

[On Pointe]

38 minutes ago, Kathleen O'Connell said:

I don't think "liking" or "not liking" is the issue here. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if some of the people who believe it is appropriate for NYCB to fire Ramasar and Catazaro also happen to like them. They may genuinely respect them as artists and may have had nothing but positive personal and professional interactions with them and still believe it would not be right for the company to continue to employ them.

Being liked or disliked,  respected or admired by the other dancers should have nothing to do with it.  They have no capacity to hire or fire.  Ramasar and Catazaro did not sign contracts with the other dancers,  they signed them with NYCB Inc.  The company undercut their own position by trying to include the other dancers in their actions.  

Performers have a long storied tradition of working well with people they do not like,  or whose views are opposite their own.  For example Betty White and Bea Arthur on The Golden Girls,  whose hatred of each other was legendary.  Or closer to home for NYCB,  Zero Mostel creating the role of Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof,  conceived,  choreographed and directed by Jerome Robbins,  who outed him to HUAC and destroyed his career during the McCarthy era.

[its the mom]

1 minute ago, On Pointe said:

Being liked or disliked,  respected or admired by the other dancers should have nothing to do with it.  They have no capacity to hire or fire.  Ramasar and Catazaro did not sign contracts with the other dancers,  they signed them with NYCB Inc.  The company undercut their own position by trying to include the other dancers in their actions.  

Performers have a long storied tradition of working well with people they do not like,  or whose views are opposite their own.  For example Betty White and Bea Arthur on The Golden Girls,  whose hatred of each other was legendary.  Or closer to home for NYCB,  Zero Mostel creating the role of Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof,  conceived,  choreographed and directed by Jerome Robbins,  who outed him to HUAC and destroyed his career during the McCarthy era.

It is a bit different.  The women of the company have to be partnered by those men.  Would you be comfortable with that if it were your daughter?  

[On Pointe]

7 minutes ago, aurora said:

My apologies for a typo. The point stands.

My point and yours don't meet. But we're not supposed to discuss  the  discussion so I'll leave it at that.

[volcanohunter]

19 minutes ago, aurora said:

A short list off the time of my head of dancers with Italian names in fairly recent times: Ferri, Fracci, Bocca (Argentinian, but an Italian name)

Not to mention Villella.

As co-creators of the art form, Italians have never been marginal figures in ballet.

[On Pointe]

6 minutes ago, its the mom said:

It is a bit different.  The women of the company have to be partnered by those men.  Would you be comfortable with that if it were your daughter?  

Debra Winger had to do a nude love scene with Richard Gere and they despised each other.  If I had a daughter - I don't - my level of comfort would have no bearing on her interactions with a partner who has never been accused of wrong doing in his professional capacity as a dancer.

[Kathleen O'Connell]

Just now, its the mom said:

It is a bit different.  The women of the company have to be partnered by those men.  Would you be comfortable with that if it were your daughter?  

I don't think partnering is necessarily the issue. I don't even think being a woman is the issue. If a company member knowingly shares explicit photos of another company member without consent, I think it is reasonable for anyone else in the company — man or woman — to believe that it is a violation of trust and community standards. 

[its the mom]

2 minutes ago, Kathleen O'Connell said:

I don't think partnering is necessarily the issue. I don't even think being a woman is the issue. If a company member knowingly shares explicit photos of another company member without consent, I think it is reasonable for anyone else in the company — man or woman — to believe that it is a violation of trust and community standards. 

I guess I feel differently, knowing some of the young girls at SAB.  As a parent, I would not want my daughter near any of them at this point.  

[Kathleen O'Connell]

2 minutes ago, its the mom said:

I guess I feel differently, knowing some of the young girls at SAB.  As a parent, I would not want my daughter near any of them at this point.  

Oh, I quite agree that partnering may be an issue! I just wanted to point out that there are other issues as well. Men might be troubled by the behavior and women employees who aren't dancers — and therefore wouldn't be partnered — could as well. It's important to remember that not every dancer is a woman and that there are plenty of women working at NYCB who aren't dancers.

[its the mom]

8 minutes ago, Kathleen O'Connell said:

Oh, I quite agree that partnering may be an issue! I just wanted to point out that there are other issues as well. Men might be troubled by the behavior and women employees who aren't dancers — and therefore wouldn't be partnered — could as well. It's important to remember that not every dancer is a woman and that there are plenty of women working at NYCB who aren't dancers.

Ok, I see.  I misunderstood.  Thanks for the clarification.  And, yes, I agree.  A violation of trust and community standards is certainly at play here.

[Villette]

The New York City Ballet did the right thing, in my opinion, and I am thankful. I am disappointed in the stance taken by AGMA. It is their duty to protect the interests of all the dancers in the Company, and right now, it seems like they are not protecting the women. It does not matter if the sharing of images occurred on work time or not. Challenging the dismissal of those who have engaged in the behavior alleged in the complaint could potentially allow those individuals further access to female dancers, and female dancers represent the population that was violated. In many careers, such as for teachers in schools, it is required to disclose whether you have ever been charged with inflicting harm upon anyone who represents the population with whom you would work. It doesn't matter if you were charged while working or while doing something completely unrelated. I hope AGMA will reconsider their stance and protect the female dancers.

[FPF]

24 minutes ago, Villette said:

 I am disappointed in the stance taken by AGMA. It is their duty to protect the interests of all the dancers in the Company, and right now, it seems like they are not protecting the women. It does not matter if the sharing of images occurred on work time or not. Challenging the dismissal of those who have engaged in the behavior alleged in the complaint could potentially allow those individuals further access to female dancers, and female dancers represent the population that was violated. In many careers, such as for teachers in schools, it is required to disclose whether you have ever been charged with inflicting harm upon anyone who represents the population with whom you would work. It doesn't matter if you were charged while working or while doing something completely unrelated. I hope AGMA will reconsider their stance and protect the female dancers.

I think that if AGMA has concluded that Ramasar and Catazaro haven't violated the contract, they will have to support the appeal. 

[fondoffouettes]

 

[Drew]

6 hours ago, nanushka said:

 

... The complete absence of any expressed remorse is striking, but that may have been somewhere else in the original source.

I was unable to read to the end of Catazaro's statements, but this was exactly my reaction. NO remorse even crafted to avoid any implication that he deserved to be terminated? Likewise from Ramasar. Well, okay -they can take the opportunity to prove they did nothing for which they should be fired AND, given the lack of anything apologetic in their statements--that they did nothing to feel the least bit regretful about. (And it's not simply reassuring to learn from Catazaro that he was disciplined for actions that did not directly involve Waterbury.  A fuller story may be...or not.)

Honestly, I think their statements almost make me less sympathetic to them than I might have been had they been dismissed and said nothing.  That said, Catazaro and Ramasar have every right to fight for their positions in the company (as no-one here has denied) and if the union is on their side...they may have a chance to regain their positions. So be it.

But for my own personal feelings about the company the decision to terminate was the right decision given the following from the Times article and assuming even minimum good faith on the company's part:

"The company said in a statement on Saturday that after hearing the concerns of dancers, staff members and others in the City Ballet community, it had decided to fire Mr. Ramasar and Mr. Catazaro" (my emphasis).

The part in bold seems important to me. Catazaro and Ramasar can fight for their right to return--they should no more be condemned for that than Waterbury or her lawyer for seeking legal redress. But clearly there are people in the company dismayed enough about what they did to have spoken up within the company even given how very fraught this situation is (lawsuits etc.).  It's not just a question of personal "liking" here--more is at stake.

Anyway, I almost breathed a sigh of relief when I saw the company's statement--it did make me feel that maybe the leadership might actually give a d**m or understand that they need to do so... but obviously there is a lot more legal wrangling coming and since it pits the dancers' union against concerns also expressed by dancers (according to the company's statement anyway "hearing the concerns of dancers" and implied by Lovette's & Bouder's earlier statements as well), this is legal wrangling with potential to continue to be demoralizing to many involved. So I can't exactly feel relief after all.  But the company statement does make me feel less conflicted about continuing to buy tickets/make donations etc.

Ramasar in particular seems to express in his statement that he will end up vindicated. (If this turns into a victim bashing scenario --"she knew...she wanted..."--then I will be sickened beyond belief. Because in this case I believe I would find it impossible to find it credible "she knew...she wanted..." and add to that the age difference and Finlay's position as a principal etc. etc...So let's hope he has something else in mind by way of vindication.) As far as Ramasar and Catazaro go, too, of course most people who aren't actual saints make mistakes, even bad ones; sometimes they pay, and they can and should be allowed to move on--I don't need to see Ramasar or Catazaro or even Finlay destroyed for all time, but I do want to see New York City Ballet take what they did seriously and send a signal to the company and to SAB -- where the students look to the company -- about what the company's values need to be. And dismissing these dancers does that even as it does have extremely serious implications for their careers as ballet dancers. There is nothing to be happy about here, but unhappiness has to begin with what these men DID. (With they caveat that they have the opportunity to show otherwise.) Waterbury's lawyer didn't make that happen, and neither did she, and though Finlay arguably did make it happen--the company's investigation concluded that he was not alone.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Drew

[balanchinefreak]

4 hours ago, aurora said:

without the legal system, it is unlikely that there would be any consequences for the men, and certainly there would be no restitution or remedy for Ms Waterbury.

It is adversarial because they (Finlay most particularly) violated her.

 

100%.

Nor do I see why the company's morale should be affected. Three spots open for talented younger men.

4 hours ago, FPF said:

The NYT article has been updated to say that the AGMA is planning to challenge both firings.

Great. We'll find out exactly what happened WRT Catazaro and Ramasar. It's very unclear to me.

[balanchinefreak]

47 minutes ago, fondoffouettes said:

 

According to Wikipedia, his father was a computer technician and his mother was an RN. Minority, yes, poor - not really.

I'm glad AGMA will contest this. It's the only way for all the facts to come out.

[Dreamer]

I found Ramasar’s and Catazaro’s statements quite moving. It doesn’t necessary make me believe them but I do believe in the presumption of innocence.  Let’s hope these two will follow up with their promise of giving us their side of the story.  

[aurora]

1 minute ago, Dreamer said:

I found Ramasar’s and Catazaro’s statements quite moving. It doesn’t necessary make me believe them but I do believe in the presumption of innocence.  Let’s hope these two will follow up with their promise of giving us their side of the story.  

No remorse and noting he was poor and is minority. Not what I would call moving.

[Longtimelurker]

4 minutes ago, aurora said:

No remorse and noting he was poor and is minority. Not what I would call moving.

I agree, and Catazaro’s defense that his activities were not done on company time nor specifically to Waterbury don’t evoke any sympathy from me.

[sappho]

Catazaro writes, "I respect and admire every ballerina with whom I dance at the company, and strive every day to be the best partner I possibly can be."

And Ramasar, "I am an honest and honorable person, and have always treated everyone, including my colleagues, staff, friends and others at NYCB, with the upmost respect."

So facile. Beyond the mindbogglingly obvious point that no one gets to judge the quality of his or her own other-regarding behavior, these men are both old enough to know that 'nice' people can do terrible things and don't get a pass on facing the consequences.

[FPF]

6 hours ago, aurora said:

On that post? What did she say? I couldn't find it

 

"Here for you babe. xo"

[FPF]

I'm interested in hearing what they have to say, but extremely skeptical. 

[aurora]

4 minutes ago, FPF said:

Here for you babe. xo

Bizarre. I see she liked the post but her comment will not come up for me.

[FPF]

One of the orchestra members also posted in support of Amar. "In all of my years in the orchestra (40), I have not had a passing acquaintance with a kinder, bigger hearted , talented dancer than Amar ! I have seen him countless times in his interactions with dancers in NY, Saratoga, Washington DC . The Orchestra members, staff, all of them really love this generous spirited person and supremely gifted dancer., All the people I have seen him around feel similarly. I feel he has been unjustly singled out because of the texting phenomena which has engulfed young peoples lives , and as a result is being made a scapegoat for the current "Salem" like atmosphere at work. We are not sure (in the orchestra) whether it is ok to hug our friends of the opposite sex, and this incident which I believe has been blown completely out of proportion and context, has now left a stain on us all . I hope AGMA does its job quickly and aquits Amar forthwith. Keep strong , you are still the king of NY to me !"

[Kathleen O'Connell]

4 minutes ago, FPF said:

One of the orchestra members also posted in support of Amar. "In all of my years in the orchestra (40), I have not had a passing acquaintance with a kinder, bigger hearted , talented dancer than Amar ! I have seen him countless times in his interactions with dancers in NY, Saratoga, Washington DC . The Orchestra members, staff, all of them really love this generous spirited person and supremely gifted dancer., All the people I have seen him around feel similarly. I feel he has been unjustly singled out because of the texting phenomena which has engulfed young peoples lives , and as a result is being made a scapegoat for the current "Salem" like atmosphere at work. We are not sure (in the orchestra) whether it is ok to hug our friends of the opposite sex, and this incident which I believe has been blown completely out of proportion and context, has now left a stain on us all . I hope AGMA does its job quickly and aquits Amar forthwith. Keep strong , you are still the king of NY to me !"

Ah, the old "I don't know if I can hug my colleagues anymore" plaint. I spent I don't know how many years as a professional woman dodging kisses from male peers who couldn't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that a handshake would do just fine.