Chase Johnsey leaves Trocks; Joins ENB

[nanushka]

3 hours ago, cubanmiamiboy said:

I find really interesting that, in the era of bulimia/anorexia exposure , nobody seems to frown upon the drastic weight loss statement. 20 pounds drop for such a small male frame seems a bit extreme to me. But I guess we ought to be applauding instead. Oh well...to each its own I guess.

Ballet....extreme goals....extreme weight loss....identity crisis....plastic surgery.  Hey Gelsey..  

Actually, I saw just one other comment about the weight loss here before yours, and it was another expression of concern. I didn't see anyone applauding the weight loss.

Personally, I don't feel the need to either frown or applaud, as I don't know Johnsey's body, his nutritional needs, his methods for achieving weight loss, etc. I do know that weight loss can be achieved in a healthy manner or in an unhealthy manner, and that weight loss and bulimia/anorexia are not the same things.

I also don't think it's the case that someone who is gender fluid is necessarily experiencing any sort of "crisis." The main crisis Johnsey seems to have experienced in recent times was that brought on by the treatment of his former employer. Not knowing him, I would not personally presume to label any of his other experiences in that way.

Edited June 13, 2018 by nanushka

[cubanmiamiboy]

1 hour ago, nanushka said:

Actually, I saw just one other comment about the weight loss here before yours, and it was another expression of concern. I didn't see anyone applauding the weight loss.

Personally, I don't feel the need to either frown or applaud, as I don't know Johnsey's body, his nutritional needs, his methods for achieving weight loss, etc. I do know that weight loss can be achieved in a healthy manner or in an unhealthy manner, and that weight loss and bulimia/anorexia are not the same things.

I also don't think it's the case that someone who is gender fluid is necessarily experiencing any sort of "crisis." The main crisis Johnsey seems to have experienced in recent times was that brought on by the treatment of his former employer. Not knowing him, I would not personally presume to label any of his other experiences in that way.

Jhonsey speaks at some point about transitioning. As we don't know to which extent this goes, I will be liberal and guess that he was talking about having surgery . For a man to have a cost covered elective castration and penectomy, he must bring a diagnosis of "gender dysphoria" given by two different psychiatrists to the surgeon. And gender dysphoria certainly involves identity crisis. 

As per dangerous self inflicted weight loss in order to blend into the rigid ballet physical standards, well... that's more than well documented out there.

[nanushka]

1 hour ago, cubanmiamiboy said:

Jhonsey speaks at some point about transitioning. As we don't know to which extent this goes, I will be liberal and guess that he was talking about having surgery . For a man to have a cost covered elective castration and penectomy, he must bring a diagnosis of "gender dysphoria" given by two different psychiatrists to the surgeon. And gender dysphoria certainly involves identity crisis. 

Where and when did Johnsey say he plans to "transition," much less to undergo that sort of surgery?

And why is assuming that the former includes the latter being "liberal"? As @sandik points out above, "people who identify as transgender" — of whom Johnsey is not one, I would emphasize — "may do all kinds of things as they discover more about themselves, or they may do nothing."

I believe you are simply incorrect, both about Johnsey's stated intention to transition and about his "talking about having surgery" of the sort you describe. (What he privately plans to do, or what his private "crises" may be or may have been, we of course do not know.) If you have evidence to the contrary, I would be interested in seeing it.

(The title of this discussion thread is "Chase Johnsey leaves Trocks for wanting to transition," but I don't believe that was ever a wholly accurate description of what the initially quoted articles actually said.)

Edited June 13, 2018 by nanushka

[aurora]

14 minutes ago, cubanmiamiboy said:

As per dangerous self inflicted weight loss in order to blend into the rigid ballet physical standards, well... that's more than well documented out there.

Certainly, but it is not documented with regards to Johnsey.

[Helene]

I'm not seeing cheering for his weight loss, but perhaps I missed it.

He undertook this weight loss under the supervision of a nutritionist, which, hopefully, took his health into consideration, in the context of a profession with oft draconian demands of many dancers, even those who go through rigorous entrance criteria with predictions about whether the child's future physique will still be ideal, given the massive investment in the child.

[canbelto]

I don't see where liberal or conservative fits into the conversation. Johnsey is simply a dancer whose talents I admired when he was with the Trocks. I saw them and his artistry and talent were IMO a cut above everyone else in the company. I was saddened when he left the Trocks for personal and artistic reasons and am glad he has maybe (???) found a new artistic home, even if it's very temporary (he mentions a very short term contract). Nothing more nothing less.

[Birdsall]

I believe that the American Psychiatric Association does not think that gender nonconformity/gender dysphoria is a mental disorder by itself. It is not a situation where psychiatrists say, "Oh, you are a physical male and want to be a woman so you have a mental disorder!" The situation of gender dysphoria causes distress, because it is a situation that the majority of society does not understand or want to understand. Even the person experiencing gender dysphoria may not understand the physical element to it all. The distress is probably due to people's judgments and they are not walking in the person's shoes, and when you are not walking in the person's shoes no one should judge, in my opinion.

Chase Johnsey may or may not want a physical transition, but that is up to him.

It is up to a ballet company to decide if he is a good ballerina who they want to hire as a ballerina.

Years ago when I was bringing  up LGBT issues to the school board I worked for by taking harassed, beat up gay and lesbian students to the school board to tell their stories (way before this was popular to do), and these stories involved beat up kids where administrators did nothing because the student was acting too effeminate or too butch (for a girl)......I was very ignorant about transgender issues and did not want transgender students included in my quest to get a Southern school board to understand that children are getting beat up. My attitude was, "We will be lucky to help gay and lesbian kids from getting beat up and including transgender kids as a protected class is going too far!" When I said that in a planning meeting I noticed a hush in the room of various LGBT community leaders. The transgender woman at the meeting lowered her eyes and her body melted into her chair. I felt the feeling that I had hushed the room and hurt someone deeply. I knew I had let her down, and I do not like hurting people, so I wondered if I should learn more about her, to hear her side of what life is like for her. I invited her to another meeting and she discussed medical issues that I had never heard about. She said there are babies born all the time who have atypical genitalia and they are assigned a sex (male or female) at least in the past without the doctor being 100% sure what the actual genitalia was (an enlarged clitoris or small penis).

She won me over, and I always included the T in LGBT after listening to her experiences and fears.

Even when we don't fully understand another person's situation and we don't stand in their shoes, our compassion for them as human beings must come out. This is why I love Wagner's Parsifal. Compassion is an element of both Christianity and Buddhism (both mixed in the opera) and instead of demanding our view of the world, we need to simply have compassion toward each other, because life is hard for all of us.

I just felt the need to say all that. Not sure why.

[Helene]

All or nothing assumptions seem to me to be the brick wall that Johnsey ran into with the Director of the Tricks, even if that Director's wall included more behavior and a greater range of appearance than your average heteronormative person.  (Argh, I hate autocorrect on my phone.)

He doesn't have to do or say or commit to any type of change, surgery, therapy, preferred pronoun, consistent pronoun, or any explanations simply because most of us are uncomfortable with fluidity and want answers.  That's our problem, and it shouldn't be his, in my opinion.

Edited June 14, 2018 by Helene
stupid phone

[cubanmiamiboy]

Early into the topic I read that he was told by the Trocks that if he transitioned he would no longer be able to dance with them. That's why I assumed he was talking about surgery. But of course...I could be wrong.  And I could also be wrong at pointing at the probable negative impact severe weight loss as a means to fit into the mold required by the ENB corps could potentially carry. 

Every might be just fine, and I hope it is.

[nanushka]

51 minutes ago, cubanmiamiboy said:

Early into the topic I read that he was told by the Trocks that if he transitioned he would no longer be able to dance with them. That's why I assumed he was talking about surgery. But of course...I could be wrong.

This is what the originally linked article said:

Quote

On January 1st, Chase Johnsey resigned from Les Ballets Trockadero de Monte Carlo. In a YouTube video, he outlined allegations of harassment and humiliation over his celebrated 14-year tenure with the company, ranging from discrimination for appearing too feminine to being told that he could no longer perform with the company should he choose to undergo a gender transition.

There was no indication in the article, I believe, nor in any other source, that Johnsey did indeed intend to transition.

In any case, "transitioning" can involve a lot of different things — including or not including surgery, hormones, etc. Trans people "transition" all the time without surgery. (And again, so far as all public accounts I've read suggest, Johnsey does not even consider himself to be "trans.")

From Wikipedia:

Quote

Transitioning is sometimes confused with sex reassignment surgery (SRS), but that is only one possible element of transitioning. Many people who transition choose not to have SRS, or do not have the means to do so. Whereas SRS is a surgical procedure, transitioning is more holistic and usually includes physical, psychological, social, and emotional changes. Some transgender and non-binary people have little or no desire to undergo surgery to change their body but will transition in other ways.^[2]

There is simply no basis whatsoever, as far as I am aware, for the assumption that Johnsey has "gender dysphoria" or that he intends to undergo surgical genital alteration.

Edited June 13, 2018 by nanushka

[cubanmiamiboy]

Ok....so I voiced an unfathomable wrong guess, completely unlikely to even be slightly considered a probable fact. Got it.🤗

Edited June 13, 2018 by cubanmiamiboy

[nanushka]

22 minutes ago, cubanmiamiboy said:

Ok....so I voiced an unfathomable wrong guess, completely unlikely to even be slightly considered a probable fact. Got it.🤗

When guesses run contrary to readily available information, when they are based on a misapplication (or overly narrow application) of terminology, and when they involve pathologizing others, I personally think they are best avoided.

Edited June 13, 2018 by nanushka

[canbelto]

By these narrow definitions Catelyn Jenner didnt "transition" either bc she has been open that she has elected not to remove the major organs so to speak.

[Jayne]

Tom Hanks hassaid the weight he lost for “Philadelphia” and “Cast Away” has been damaging to his health.  I’m just worried about Chase. 

[ivypink]

7 hours ago, canbelto said:

By these narrow definitions Catelyn Jenner didnt "transition" either bc she has been open that she has elected not to remove the major organs so to speak.

Actually, Jenner did have the surgery to fully transition. She stated this in People magazine early this year.

[sandik]

10 hours ago, Birdsall said:

I just felt the need to say all that. Not sure why.

And I felt the need to say "thank you!"

[cubanmiamiboy]

On 6/13/2018 at 5:20 PM, nanushka said:

When guesses run contrary to readily available information, when they are based on a misapplication (or overly narrow application) of terminology, and when they involve pathologizing others, I personally think they are best avoided.

Let's agree to disagree then on how "ok" and "healthy" this whole affair is. I happen to usually try to dig into the "hear no evil, see no evil" aspect of things, and experience has told me that things is are not just fine in sensitive issues in which people generally don't want to look beyond the happy surface-( and even more if it involves political correctness).  If you think, or assume that Johnsey has no identity crisis , or his 20 pounds weight loss in order to fit a ballet female corps while being structurally different as a male is very healthy, well....that's your assumption-(agreeing upon not knowing what his real story is). Mine, on the other side, is just the opposite 

[nanushka]

6 hours ago, cubanmiamiboy said:

Let's agree to disagree then on how "ok" and "healthy" this whole affair is. I happen to usually try to dig into the "hear no evil, see no evil" aspect of things, and experience has told me that things is are not just fine in sensitive issues in which people generally don't want to look beyond the happy surface-( and even more if it involves political correctness).  If you think, or assume that Johnsey has no identity crisis , or his 20 pounds weight loss in order to fit a ballet female corps while being structurally different as a male is very healthy, well....that's your assumption-(agreeing upon not knowing what his real story is). Mine, on the other side, is just the opposite 

My point was precisely that I am making no assumptions, in either direction.

It is simply not the case that I have made the assumptions you are attributing to me here.

Please read what I have written. You'll see that I never said Johnsey had not experienced an identity crisis or that his 20-pound weight loss was not a problem. I simply try not to post guesses or assumptions — especially pathologizing ones, on sensitive issues such as gender identity and eating disorders — about dancers whose lives I do not know in detail.

Edited June 15, 2018 by nanushka

[canbelto]

5 hours ago, cubanmiamiboy said:

Let's agree to disagree then on how "ok" and "healthy" this whole affair is. I happen to usually try to dig into the "hear no evil, see no evil" aspect of things, and experience has told me that things is are not just fine in sensitive issues in which people generally don't want to look beyond the happy surface-( and even more if it involves political correctness).  If you think, or assume that Johnsey has no identity crisis , or his 20 pounds weight loss in order to fit a ballet female corps while being structurally different as a male is very healthy, well....that's your assumption-(agreeing upon not knowing what his real story is). Mine, on the other side, is just the opposite 

Well if you don't know what his real story is why are you jumping to such negative assumptions and assume he has a "gender identity" crisis? And more to the point, have you seen Johnsey dance? If so, what'd you think of his dancing? Because your disapproval of his actions seems disproportionate to how much you've actually followed his career.

Edited June 15, 2018 by canbelto

[Birdsall]

No one cares more about Chase Johnsey than his family or friends probably. Those are the people who need to worry about his health (physical mostly, in my opinion). We can't do anything about it. I have helped my mother go from 67 lbs. to 84 lbs. (she is 5'1") and just took her to the doctor and got him to convince her that my concerns are valid (she thought she was getting fat). So even a family member who LOVES you can't necessarily fix an eating disorder. So BA members aren't going to have much of an effect on Chase Johnsey at all IF he has an eating disorder, and we don't even know if he does. As for mental health, I think we should all look at ourselves and all visit counselors before we point any fingers.

[JMcN]

5 hours ago, canbelto said:

Well if you don't know what his real story is why are you jumping to such negative assumptions and assume he has a "gender identity" crisis? And more to the point, have you seen Johnsey dance? If so, what'd you think of his dancing? Because your disapproval of his actions seems disproportionate to how much you've actually followed his career.

Chase Johnsey has a big following among ballet fans in the UK.  I sincerely hope Chase can make a career here and we get more more opportunities to see him dance.  I was interested in his experience of working with ladies "en pointe" in the Dance Magazine article.  He's just about the best fouetté-er I have seen!

Interesting that Tamara Rojo gave him the opportunity but actually did not capitalise on it at all.

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by JMcN

[dirac]

On 6/13/2018 at 12:59 PM, cubanmiamiboy said:

Early into the topic I read that he was told by the Trocks that if he transitioned he would no longer be able to dance with them. That's why I assumed he was talking about surgery. But of course...I could be wrong.  And I could also be wrong at pointing at the probable negative impact severe weight loss as a means to fit into the mold required by the ENB corps could potentially carry. 

Every might be just fine, and I hope it is.

 

On 6/15/2018 at 5:15 AM, Birdsall said:

No one cares more about Chase Johnsey than his family or friends probably. Those are the people who need to worry about his health (physical mostly, in my opinion). We can't do anything about it. I have helped my mother go from 67 lbs. to 84 lbs. (she is 5'1") and just took her to the doctor and got him to convince her that my concerns are valid (she thought she was getting fat). So even a family member who LOVES you can't necessarily fix an eating disorder. So BA members aren't going to have much of an effect on Chase Johnsey at all IF he has an eating disorder, and we don't even know if he does. As for mental health, I think we should all look at ourselves and all visit counselors before we point any fingers.

We may not be able to "do anything about it" but we can express concern. As Jayne notes above, people can experience health problems from drastic weight loss even if it is only temporary.   Johnsey will presumably have to maintain his current weight for the foreseeable future to have any hopes of a job, regardless of how his short-term contract ends, since he will be competing against highly qualified women for a small number of opportunities. He has already undergone surgery to look more feminine. Ballet is a much more competitive field for women than for men, as Wendy Whelan noted when asked to opine on Johnsey's situation.  

As mentioned earlier,  he is said to be enjoying the attentions of a nutritionist, which is good. I hope this continues and I hope the nutritionist is offering sound advice.

[canbelto]

There's concern about his weight loss (valid) and then there's concern trolling that's really thinly disguised transphobia which is another kettle of fish. 

[Mashinka]

21 hours ago, JMcN said:

Chase Johnsey has a big following among ballet fans in the UK.  I sincerely hope Chase can make a career here and we get more more opportunities to see him dance.  I was interested in his experience of working with ladies "en pointe" in the Dance Magazine article.  He's just about the best fouetté-er I have seen!

Interesting that Tamara Rojo gave him the opportunity but actually did not capitalise on it at all.

I saw him the corps on Wednesday, perhaps he wants to settle in before attempting bigger things?

[Helene]

3 hours ago, canbelto said:

There's concern about his weight loss (valid) and then there's concern trolling that's really thinly disguised transphobia which is another kettle of fish. 

And there's thinly disguised discussing the discussion/another poster, so don't do it.