Peter Martins Sexual Harassment Allegations

[On Pointe]

1 hour ago, canbelto said:

Have you ever seen how rape victims/accusers are treated? Have you ever seen every outfit they ever bought scrutinized, the way their sexual history is poured over with a fine tooth comb, the way they are shamed, ostracized, and (in some cultures) KILLED by their own families? If you haven't, then sorry for you. If you have, I can't believe you think women make these accusations so lightly and with such impunity. 

Just as an example, do you remember Robert Chambers? A troubled young man with a history of theft, violence, drug abuse, and sociopathic behavior? When he strangled a young lady (Jennifer Levin) to death SHE was the slut, SHE had a "sex diary" (actually a contact book, this was before cell phones), and he was the good Catholic boy. His claim of "death by rough sex" was refuted by forensic evidence that proved that they never even had sex that night. She was strangled almost immediately with her own clothes. 

I don't believe people lie about being sexually assaulted, when the stigma, shame and attitudes such as yours make the conditions so difficult.

Have you ever seen how black men accused of raping white women are treated in this culture?  I well remember the Robert Chambers murder of Jennifer Levin.  One thing I recall specifically - before Chambers was arrested,  her uncle automatically assumed that someone black did it and indulged in a racist rant about New York being a social experiment gone bad.  Blaming a black guy is the fallback position for many false accusers for a variety of crimes.

In the 70s and 80s,  Bill Cosby was just a comedian,  not some powerful dictator-like figure.  More significantly he was a black man.  Black men don't get passes for illicit sex with white women,  no matter how famous or wealthy.  (I'd say ask Chuck Berry,  but he just died.)  

I don't understand all the hate I'm getting for my supposed "attitude".  Because I don't automatically  assume that an accusation is tantamount to a conviction?  It's enshrined in the US Constitution - innocent until proven guilty.  (More accurately not guilty until proven guilty.  "Innocence" is too loaded a term to use in cases like this.)  You should only hope that someone like me is on your jury if you are ever accused of a crime.

Edited January 6, 2018 by On Pointe
Clarity

[canbelto]

11 minutes ago, On Pointe said:

Have you ever seen how black men accused of raping white women are treated in this culture?  I well remember the Robert Chambers murder of Jennifer Levin.  One thing I recall specifically - before Chambers was arrested,  her uncle automatically assumed that someone black did it and indulged in a racist rant about New York being a social experiment gone bad.  Blaming the black guy is the fallback position for many false accusers for a variety of crimes.

In the 70s and 80s,  Bill Cosby was just a comedian,  not some powerful dictator-like figure.  More significantly he was a black man.  Black men don't get passes for illicit sex with white women,  no matter how famous or wealthy.  (I'd say ask Chuck Berry,  but he just died.)  

I don't understand all the hate I'm getting for my supposed "attitude".  Because I don't automatically  assume that an accusation is tantamount to a conviction?  It's enshrined in the US Constitution - innocent until proven guilty.  (More accurately not guilty until proven guilty.  "Innocence" is too loaded a term to use in cases like this.)  You should only hope that someone like me is on your jury if you are ever accused of a crime.

Peter Martins isn't black, first of all. 

Second of all, this is not like the Central Park rape case where a bunch of black teenagers were rounded up and assumed to be guilty. Bill Cosby had a pattern AND reputation for inappropriate sexual relations with various young women. He WAS a powerful figure, as his show was a #1 sitcom and he was held up as a role model for men of color across the country, so much so that he was asked to give lucrative speeches about how the black community could "improve." 

 

[Helene]

I'm not even sure it matters to NYCB whether Peter Martins is guilty or not guilty, unless they are financially vulnerable due to liability.  He's gone, so the investigation shouldn't make a difference to a potential return, although at least a Board spokesman said they hoped he would return before his resignation.  Continuing the investigation could appear to show good faith, and it would give the company management and Board a better barometer about where they stand.

How the results are framed could determine whether or not people will pursue civil and/or labor action, and I wouldn't expect anything dramatic to be announced from Hoey.

Right now we can wait for more news: whether we think he's guilty or not, or our personal standards and opinions aren't really relevant to the outcome, except to whether we personally support the company financially. 

If you don't want to read what other people post, there is an ignore function, although it might not work for Moderators.  (I haven't tested this.) Click the down-arrow next to your login name in the top right corner of any page, then "Ignored Members" from the drop-down box, add the username(s) in the input box, and save.

Announcing whom you're ignoring is discussing the discussion, so don't do it.

[canbelto]

4 minutes ago, Helene said:

I'm not even sure it matters to NYCB whether Peter Martins is guilty or not guilty, unless they are financially vulnerable due to liability.  He's gone, so the investigation shouldn't make a difference to a potential return, although at least a Board spokesman said they hoped he would return before his resignation.  Continuing the investigation could appear to show good faith, and it would give the company management and Board a better barometer about where they stand.

How the results are framed could determine whether or not people will pursue civil and/or labor action, and I wouldn't expect anything dramatic to be announced from Hoey.

Right now we can wait for more news: whether we think he's guilty or not, or our personal standards and opinions aren't really relevant to the outcome, except to whether we personally support the company financially.

I think Martins' New Years "retirement" could have been a boardroom conversation where it was decided that if Martins didn't want a full-blown investigation to continue, he could step down and the findings of the investigation would be kept private.

[Helene]

I don't think the official news reports and statements support that the investigation ended after his resignation or that all of the interviews/interrogations were complete at that time.  

There are multiple reasons why NYCB would want the findings of the report to be kept private. 

[vagansmom]

YEs, Canbelto, that's how it's been done in two of the institutions I've worked in. One is similar: A charismatic head in his mid-40's, of a private school was having an affair (often carried out during school hours) with a 16 year old girl along with some other  young, married women. His wife worked at the school, and much like Kistler's situation, this woman's livelihood and the fate of their children depended on her trying to turn a blind eye. He had a minor drug problem as well. He also had made statements (to me) about a 6 year old girl in the school and what a "looker" she'd be when she was a little older. 

The board was worried about the future of the school if this charismatic head were fired. His behavior went on for a few years. I was one of a couple people who reported some of his actions and statements to the board. It took a year after the last report before he resigned and only after a couple other people reported things he'd said to a class full of children. He resigned rather than be fired. 

Staff was mixed. Most were worried about their jobs, fearing that if he went under, so, too, would the school (he was that charismatic and had saved the school through his fundraising ability)  so they kept quiet. Some took his side, stating that he'd never treated them that way. 

Lots of parallels here. I learned that MONEY rules the world. Even people whom I'd previously regarded as having integrity kept mum. I've watched this lesson repeat throughout my entire life. Money +power=absolute influence, and when it's a matter of a man and woman, there's also the issue of physical strength domination. 

Edited January 6, 2018 by vagansmom

[Marta]

2 hours ago, canbelto said:

Have you ever seen how rape victims/accusers are treated? Have you ever seen every outfit they ever bought scrutinized, the way their sexual history is poured over with a fine tooth comb, the way they are shamed, ostracized, and (in some cultures) KILLED by their own families? If you haven't, then sorry for you. If you have, I can't believe you think women make these accusations so lightly and with such impunity. 

Just as an example, do you remember Robert Chambers? A troubled young man with a history of theft, violence, drug abuse, and sociopathic behavior? When he strangled a young lady (Jennifer Levin) to death SHE was the slut, SHE had a "sex diary" (actually a contact book, this was before cell phones), and he was the good Catholic boy. His claim of "death by rough sex" was refuted by forensic evidence that proved that they never even had sex that night. She was strangled almost immediately with her own clothes. 

I don't believe people lie about being sexually assaulted, when the stigma, shame and attitudes such as yours make the conditions so difficult.

I agree completely.  Some commenting here  perhaps don't seem to realize that their words amount to blaming the victim. 

[Helene]

You have to believe someone is a victim before you can blame or not blame them.

[On Pointe]

2 hours ago, canbelto said:

Peter Martins isn't black, first of all. 

Second of all, this is not like the Central Park rape case where a bunch of black teenagers were rounded up and assumed to be guilty. Bill Cosby had a pattern AND reputation for inappropriate sexual relations with various young women. He WAS a powerful figure, as his show was a #1 sitcom and he was held up as a role model for men of color across the country, so much so that he was asked to give lucrative speeches about how the black community could "improve." 

 

Now I'm totally confused.  We started out discussing Bill Cosby,  and then  you mentioned the Robert Chambers case and I responded,  specifically about that case where her uncle presumed the perpetrator was black, and you then write "Peter Martins isn't black".   True,  and he isn't accused of murder either. 

Now you bring up the Central Park Five case,  where five innocent black kids were railroaded into prison for raping a white woman - with Donald Trump urging the death penalty - which kind of proves my point: Black men accused of raping white  women don't get a free pass.  If any of Cosby's supposed victims had gone to the police,  there would be a record of some kind of inquiry,  even if Cosby were never arrested.  Being the star of a TV show didn't insulate Matt Lauer or Charlie Rose or Bill O'Reilly,  and they were powerful white guys.  While many rape victims are afraid to go to the police,  obviously not all of them are,  or there would not be thousands of untested rape kits in every big city. There would be no rape prosecutions.  The police are not in the business of scrutinizing or ostracizing victims.  They just gather the evidence.

Which brings us back to Martins - where is the evidence of sexual wrongdoing? So far there isn't any.  

[canbelto]

3 hours ago, On Pointe said:

 

3 hours ago, On Pointe said:

Now I'm totally confused.  We started out discussing Bill Cosby,  and then  you mentioned the Robert Chambers case and I responded,  specifically about that case where her uncle presumed the perpetrator was black, and you then write "Peter Martins isn't black".   True,  and he isn't accused of murder either. 

Now you bring up the Central Park Five case,  where five innocent black kids were railroaded into prison for raping a white woman - with Donald Trump urging the death penalty - which kind of proves my point: Black men accused of raping white  women don't get a free pass.  If any of Cosby's supposed victims had gone to the police,  there would be a record of some kind of inquiry,  even if Cosby were never arrested.  Being the star of a TV show didn't insulate Matt Lauer or Charlie Rose or Bill O'Reilly,  and they were powerful white guys.  While many rape victims are afraid to go to the police,  obviously not all of them are,  or there would not be thousands of untested rape kits in every big city. There would be no rape prosecutions.  The police are not in the business of scrutinizing or ostracizing victims.  They just gather the evidence.

Which brings us back to Martins - where is the evidence of sexual wrongdoing? So far there isn't any.  

I'm more discussing how you always assume bad faith on the "supposed victims" (your words, not mine) and how you bring up racism in the accusations against Bill Cosby and greed, when I'm saying that greed and racism are unlikely to be motivating factors for any woman to accuse anyone of rape, since rape victims are often dragged through the mud by defense attorneys and the process is so degrading that many simply prefer to stay silent.

Maybe I just have totally different life experiences than you. I've worked with children who were raped by their fathers and when they told their mothers, their mothers gave them up to foster care or made the girls sleep with their fathers. "Better you than me" is what they've said. I've seen the damage and pain and trauma this causes. So I actually have empathy for women who were sexually assaulted but because of a variety of circumstances were afraid to go to the police because they weren't the "perfect" victim. And I'm going to say this once more, loud and clear, and if you don't get it, you never will:

No woman ever thinks "I need to make a quick buck, I'll accuse someone of rape." 

[Drew]

1 hour ago, On Pointe said:

  The police are not in the business of scrutinizing or ostracizing victims. 

 

They certainly shouldn't be. Unfortunately, this is not always true.  One thinks of the long delays in interviewing star athletes accused of rape, or out-of- line questioning coming not from defense lawyers (who are, mostly, doing their job) but from police etc. Anyone accused of course has the right to do all that he (mostly "he" in the cases I am thinking about) can do legally to protect himself.  But in the case of high profile cases that have been reported on, the police have sometimes been at least complicit in cover ups.

An effective film on how rape has been handled on college campuses is The Hunting Ground. Another, by the same team, on how they it has been handled in the U.S. Military is The Invisible War. The latter was actually screened for the Secretary of Defense under Obama. Both of these films give some idea of the costs of coming forward in the context of two very different kinds of large, important institutions that are very concerned with preserving themselves and their traditional structures of power, and -- in the case of universities -- also preserving fund-raising effectiveness. They also show a shocking indifference to the experience and pain of the victims who are mostly (not all) women.  Certainly, the police are not at the center of what these films consider--but they are part of the picture in the Hunting Ground for example. Though, notably, universities often have discouraged young women from going to the police at all, which in fact suggests that the police may do a better job taking rape seriously than the universities themselves do. But in the case of athletic stars...not always.

I'm not going to comment on Cosby. But I did want to register that among women victims on the receiving end of sexual harassment and sexual violence who have been leaders in trying to do something about it, women of color have played a decisive role -- as many reading this discussion probably know -- And when #MeToo emerged as a popular slogan on twitter, the NYTimes reported on Tarana Burke, who started a "Me Too" campaign long before Alyssa Milano, and also reported on April Reign:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/20/us/me-too-movement-tarana-burke.html?_r=0

Here is a piece by Tarana Burke herself published in the Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/11/09/the-waitress-who-works-in-the-diner-needs-to-know-that-the-issue-of-sexual-harassment-is-about-her-too/?utm_term=.6502400b406b

From that piece--in Burke's words:

"What history has shown us time and again is that if marginalized voices — those of people of color, queer people, disabled people, poor people — aren’t centered in our movements then they tend to become no more than a footnote. I often say that sexual violence knows no race, class or gender, but the response to it does. 'Me too.' is a response to the spectrum of gender-based sexual violence that comes directly from survivors — all survivors. We can’t afford a racialized, gendered or classist response. Ending sexual violence will require every voice from every corner of the world and it will require those whose voices are most often heard to find ways to amplify those voices that often go unheard."

All this may or may not seem very far afield from Peter Martins at New York City Ballet -- I agree that right now we know very little about what Martins did or didn't do, and some of what has been reported remains hard to interpret/judge without further information. At least for someone like myself who is an "outsider" to the New York City Ballet of any era. But certainly it's not a stretch to say that accusations of abuses of power in the ballet world, abuses that include sexual exploitation of various kinds, need to be taken seriously. And right now, that includes an investigation of Martins...probably some other actions as well more directed to the future than the past.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Drew

[On Pointe]

3 hours ago, canbelto said:

I'm more discussing how you always assume bad faith on the "supposed victims" (your words, not mine) and how you bring up racism in the accusations against Bill Cosby and greed, when I'm saying that greed and racism are unlikely to be motivating factors for any woman to accuse anyone of rape, since rape victims are often dragged through the mud by defense attorneys and the process is so degrading that many simply prefer to stay silent.

Maybe I just have totally different life experiences than you. I've worked with children who were raped by their fathers and when they told their mothers, their mothers gave them up to foster care or made the girls sleep with their fathers. "Better you than me" is what they've said. I've seen the damage and pain and trauma this causes. So I actually have empathy for women who were sexually assaulted but because of a variety of circumstances were afraid to go to the police because they weren't the "perfect" victim. And I'm going to say this once more, loud and clear, and if you don't get it, you never will:

No woman ever thinks "I need to make a quick buck, I'll accuse someone of rape." 

Your experiences are no doubt very stressful to you,  and I'm sorry that my opinions have caused you distress.  At no time were we talking children who were raped by their fathers and subsequently abandoned by their mothers.  I don't think it's fair for you to shoehorn those tragic situations into the discussion and accuse me of victim blaming when we're talking about Bill Cosby or Peter Martins.

While rare,  there have been instances where women were motivated to claim rape for a variety of reasons,  for example the Rolling Stone campus rape story that was totally fabricated.  I do think that it's important to remember that we got here because of accusations against Peter Martins,  who might be a bad husband,  a lousy driver,  and an unpleasant boss to some,  but so far,   hasn't been accused of rape.  I mentioned Cosby to illustrate the difficulty of proving someone guilty of alleged crimes that took place many years ago.  As for racism,  my views are influenced by my life experience as well - Emmett Till,  who was tortured and murdered for allegedly whistling at a white woman in Mississippi,  is buried thirty feet from my mother's grave.  (The woman made a death bed confession that she made up the story of being accosted by Till.)

[Helene]

1 hour ago, On Pointe said:

but so far,   hasn't been accused of rape. 

Frankfurt didn't use the word rape.  She is on the record in saying that sex with Martins was non-consensual.  

[Drew]

just another example of things that have happened when people come forward to speak--  http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2018/01/roy_moore_accusers_home_burns.html

[canbelto]

10 hours ago, On Pointe said:

Your experiences are no doubt very stressful to you,  and I'm sorry that my opinions have caused you distress.  At no time were we talking children who were raped by their fathers and subsequently abandoned by their mothers.  I don't think it's fair for you to shoehorn those tragic situations into the discussion and accuse me of victim blaming when we're talking about Bill Cosby or Peter Martins.

While rare,  there have been instances where women were motivated to claim rape for a variety of reasons,  for example the Rolling Stone campus rape story that was totally fabricated.  I do think that it's important to remember that we got here because of accusations against Peter Martins,  who might be a bad husband,  a lousy driver,  and an unpleasant boss to some,  but so far,   hasn't been accused of rape.  I mentioned Cosby to illustrate the difficulty of proving someone guilty of alleged crimes that took place many years ago.  As for racism,  my views are influenced by my life experience as well - Emmett Till,  who was tortured and murdered for allegedly whistling at a white woman in Mississippi,  is buried thirty feet from my mother's grave.  (The woman made a death bed confession that she made up the story of being accosted by Till.)

First of all, some women for Bill Cosby did go to the police:

Quote

On February 1, 2000, according to a statement provided by Detective Jose McCallion of the Manhattan Special Victims Bureau, Lachele Covington, who was 20 years old at the time, filed a criminal complaint against Cosby alleging that on January 28, 2000, at Cosby's Manhattan townhouse, Cosby tried to put her hands down his pants and then exposed himself. Covington also alleged that Cosby grabbed her breasts and tried to put his hands down her pants at his home. Cosby was questioned and insisted "it was not true". The police referred her complaint to the D.A., but they declined to prosecute.

Others did seek out financial relief, which Cosby paid.

Quote

Claims Cosby randomly approached her in the Vegas hotel where he was performing, gave her Quaaludes and then raped her. Cosby admitted under oath he made repeated payments to her after the incident, though he asserts it was consensual.

And:

Quote

Claims that after working as an extra on Cosby, she visited Cosby's townhouse for career advice, where he attempted to put her hand on his genitals. Covington reported the allegation to the NYPD three days later but no charges were filed.

So it's NOT true that these women only came out when the Vanity Fair article and Gloria Allred got involved. The fact that you think all of the Cosby women were lying when some of them did go to the police and nothing was done speaks volumes.

My issue is not whether Peter Martins is a rapist or not. I agree that so far the circumstances don't support that he actually raped anyone. But to think that women make rape accusations to make a quick buck or to get on the cover of Vanity Fair or because they didn't get Titania in MSND is ... 

[Helene]

3 hours ago, canbelto said:

I agree that so far the circumstances don't support that he actually raped anyone.

What else is non-consensual sex?

I'm not sure what the exact terminology of the sexual offense he would have committed if his relationships with Watts and Kistler weren't chaste when they were under 18, but that's usually described as statutory rape.

[balletforme]

Wow!  This has really stirred up. . . Peter Martins was known to sleep with dancers (MANY of them).  Kathryn Morgan states this. I am sure Gelsey did as well.   

It would not be odd.  It was company tradition, Balanchine did it. So why not him? 

I just don't think it's possible to get people who had consensual relationships to come forward and detail those, especially if they benefited.  And people who did not have consensual relationships have no proof.  In addition, casting is too subjective to prove quid pro quo. Proving a "hostile work environment" is easier with physical assault because you really can't argue that it is consensual.  

And honestly, I DID see a show recently where a young dancer was taking on roles and thought, "This person does not look secure.  This person is looking down.  This person does not seem comfortable in this role."  

In terms of the investigation and people being naive to it's purpose. . . Why not expect that one of the top ballet companies in the world would want  to "do the right thing?"  It's supposed to be a quality organization. And gosh, I feel sorry for parents of those kids boarding at SAB. . thinking, "Oh that's great, they really care. . ." Sick.  The lot place stinks terribly.  The board, Peter Martins, and all these people who have gone along with this. 

[On Pointe]

3 hours ago, canbelto said:

First of all, some women for Bill Cosby did go to the police:

Others did seek out financial relief, which Cosby paid.

And:

So it's NOT true that these women only came out when the Vanity Fair article and Gloria Allred got involved. The fact that you think all of the Cosby women were lying when some of them did go to the police and nothing was done speaks volumes.

My issue is not whether Peter Martins is a rapist or not. I agree that so far the circumstances don't support that he actually raped anyone. But to think that women make rape accusations to make a quick buck or to get on the cover of Vanity Fair or because they didn't get Titania in MSND is ... 

I don't think all of the women in the Cosby case are lying and I never said so.  But a lot of them are,  which is clear from even a cursory examination of their stories.  There is potentially a lot of money in play here.  People will lie to get paid,  especially those who suffer from substance abuse and are down on their luck,   which describes many Cosby accusers.  (When Prince died intestate,  more than seven hundred people claimed to be his long lost brothers and sisters in hopes of getting a chunk of his millions. Cosby has been extorted before,  by the daughter of one of his mistresses,  for $40,000,000,  even though he provided for her for years and paid for her education.)   Evidently the DA in the Covington case had serious doubts about prosecuting because there was nothing Cosby was alleged to have done that was actionable - he made a crude pass at her,  she rejected it and left.  Her relatives embellished the story later.  She herself isn't part of the Allred group and has moved on with her life.

In the Cosby situation,  unlike Martins,  there was definitely quid pro quo.  Some of the women described in the media as his victims had their living expenses and even their college tuition paid by Cosby for years - he'd give them a bonus if they got an A.  It doesn't mean it was impossible for him to have raped them,  but their acquiescence and silence for years would make it very hard to bring charges and get a conviction.

Back to Martins,   Wilhelmina Frankfurt  seems to choose her words carefully.  If Peter Martins raped her,  she should say so.  Waffle words,  and her defense of him in the same breath are not helpful.  As yet no woman has said he raped her because she was angry that she didn't get a role.  But the idea that no woman ever has falsely claimed rape,  whether for money or revenge or any other reason,  is demonstrably false.

In his autobiography,  Jock Soto describes in detail the volatile affair he had with a member of the NYCB corps when he was an underage student at SAB.  Out of curiosity,  I checked out the reader reviews on Amazon,  where the book is much praised,  but not one person even mentions the impropriety of such a relationship.  The company and the school didn't do anything about it either.  At this stage,  pearl-clutching by the SAB administration is disingenuous.

[Helene]

3 hours ago, balletforme said:

Proving a "hostile work environment" is easier with physical assault because you really can't argue that it is consensual.  

Again, creating a hostile work environment doesn't require non-consensual sex: it's when the boss is having sex with his or her employees.  Proof is harder, because 1. while both can be private, people generally don't look at someone's broken bones or bruises and accept the claim that it was consensual, whereas when people who know each other have sex or one rapes the other, and it is legal for those two people to have consensual sex, the issue of consent often becomes person 1 said/person 2 said and 2. where there is physical assault, the victim is the person who has been assaulted, while when the boss is creating a hostile work environment by sleeping with his or her employees, however consensual, it impacts everyone in the environment, but you may have to show that other people are having sex with the boss to make the claim 3. if you have been pressured or hit on, lighten up already, it's a touchy business, and you're exaggerating.

[Pique Arabesque]

6 hours ago, Helene said:

Again, creating a hostile work environment doesn't require non-consensual sex: it's when the boss is having sex with his or her employees. 

This is key. While the dancers that Martins is alleged to have slept with as AD of City Ballet were probably of age, they could not have consented to a relationship with him. Consent is not just about saying "yes" - it's also about feeling free to say "no" without fear of negative consequences. Consent can't be given under duress. He was their supervisor, and employee/supervisor relationships are defined by an imbalance of power. Martins was responsible for promotions, casting, etc - all things that could shape the trajectory of an entire career. It is very likely that dancers were fearful of experiencing negative career consequences should they decline his advances. 

In these situations, I also wonder about the dancers who aren't sleeping with the AD (speaking generally). Are there talented dancers who were passed over just because they didn't catch the AD's eye? (Just thinking out loud here).

And not to sound like a broken record, but while Martins' relationships with Watts and Kistler as a dancer are most likely not part of the formal investigation, they establish a precedent for his tendency to target young women.

The lengths that people will go to defend terrible men (Cosby, Martins, etc)...

[sandik]

On 1/5/2018 at 2:12 PM, abatt said:

... In this day and age, we should all be grateful that some rich people are still giving their money to arts institutions. Why should these board members also have a duty to police the day to day behavior of Peter Martins. Those channels should be set up within the institution itself, and not be the responsibility of the board members.

While I don't think they have to "police the day to day behavior" of their employees (of which Martins is one), most non-profit board members are indeed responsible for the health of the organization, which includes workplace ethics. 

[sandik]

1 hour ago, Pique Arabesque said:

Consent is not just about saying "yes" - it's also about feeling free to say "no" without fear of negative consequences.

This is the tricky bit.

Like most of us, I've been having conversations like the one we're having here in many different parts of my life -- no matter how the current situation at NYCB settles out in the end, we're at a watershed moment in our culture and many people are re-examining their experiences and their expectations.

I'm one of the lucky ones -- I've not been raped, and I've only had to work in what would qualify as a hostile environment a couple of times.  And the times I've said no, I've been believed. 

But not everyone is so lucky.  And when you're talking about an environment like a dance school/company, where so many young people are hoping to be noticed by a powerful person, the dynamics can become toxic very quickly. 

I'm not sure we'll ever know more than we currently do about Martins' behavior as AD of NYCB -- he's resigned, and unless charges are filed at some point, the board has a limited obligation to release information to the public.

Edited January 7, 2018 by sandik

[nanushka]

On 1/5/2018 at 5:12 PM, abatt said:

Some letters to the editor at the NY Times re the Martins debacle.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/04/opinion/martins-new-york-city-ballet-harassment.html

 

One letter takes a derogatory view of Board members who have deep pockets but don't care about running the institution.  In this day and age, we should all be grateful that some rich people are still giving their money to arts institutions. Why should these board members also have a duty to police the day to day behavior of Peter Martins. Those channels should be set up within the institution itself, and not be the responsibility of the board members.

 

I'm not sure I understand this point. If someone wants to simply give their money to an arts institution, then yes, the institution (and maybe all of us) should be grateful. But taking a seat on a board is taking on a responsibility. Is it too much to suggest that that responsibility would include making sure that "those channels are set up within the institution itself," that they remain in good working order, and that when problems arise they are dealt with in a responsible manner? I don't know a whole lot about how boards work in arts institutions, but I rather assumed that fell within their purview.

[Kaysta]

The defense of Martins reminds me of the defense of Joe Paterno at Penn State.   Some people have such love and respect for an institution that they cannot accept that someone a part of that institution could do bad things.  It’s a deep scary version of hero worship that allows one to ignore common sense in order to defend the “perpetrator.”

 

I witnessed it first hand at Penn State.  In one sentence, PSU fans would talk about what great attention to detail Coach Paterno had in readying his team to victory.  In the next, they’d state that there was no way he knew about what was going on, and that even if McQueary did tell him what he saw, he was too old and straight-laced to have any clue what it could mean.  It was scary to watch people whom I consider quite rational under normal circumstances defend him.

Note:  I’m not comparing the offenses here, just that the mindset to defend is similar.  I don’t know if Martins physically abused or sexually assaulted anyone (though I believe the victims that have come out).  But I do believe there is a pattern of him “chasing” younger women, and I believe he slept with dancers.  Whether he offered them anything in return doesn’t matter to me.  I would not want someone I cared about working or learning under him.

 

[Helene]

The only defense of Martins that reminds me of the defense of Joe Paterno's is from the dancers and people affiliated with the company, like Perry Silvey and the Board members who've spoken, ie, from people who are invested.  I think that's a different argument than thinking there's no proof that Martins has done much wrong.