WSJ Article on Possible Misty Copeland Promotion

[Helene]

There is a difference between saying, "I do not believe X was lying, because there's no evidence that X spoke with intention to deceive," and saying, "I believe X was not lying, because there's no evidence that X spoke with intention to deceive." I wonder if this difference is at the root of some of the debate between Helene and kfw in this discussion thread. Helene, which of those would you say best articulates your mindset in relation to Copeland and to Hallberg?

The first. I have no reason to believe she was lying. I don't think the arguments listing all the reasons that she had incentive hold, partly because, as I've said before, the risk of being "outed" by people who knew, worked with, and trained the other black female soloists is great, especially in the internet age.

But as long as we're parsing words, the claim in the first place was also aspirational: it wasn't simply a brag to have been the first black female soloist at ABT -- currently corrected to the third -- but that it was a step on the way to becoming the first black Principal Dancer. That's a lot different than this message: "I am the first black female soloist at ABT in X* years. The last time there was a female soloist was when Reagan* was President. The last last time there was a black female soloist, I was Y* years old. I had never seen a black face at ABT among my teachers or colleagues until 2010." That would pack a punch, but it isn't a way to make friends and influence people. (This is why I could never be in PR.)

*The reason these aren't specific is that I just spent 10 minutes on google trying to find the names of the other two black female soloists, so I could look up when they were at ABT. With no luck.

It's really easy to get "first" claims wrong, even when you do all your homework. I can't imagine Hallberg, Copeland and their respective PR people dove into the archives to do their research. Today's PR firms probably think a five-minute Google search is all that is needed.

Because Copeland's Wikipedia article has been corrected to say, "She is the fourth African-American soloist, and the first in two decades with ABT," that is what a google search would bring up now, but until the correction was made, the first black soloist would be repeated as a result of that search.

[nanushka]

Thanks for the clarification, Helene. And this:

*The reason these aren't specific is that I just spent 10 minutes on google trying to find the names of the other two black female soloists, so I could look up when they were at ABT. With no luck.

is certainly a telling detail!

[nanushka]

...Just now I noticed how I first explained why some might take more issue with Misty's "lying" rather than David Hallberg's "lying" because that was the topic at that moment - even though I do not believe in them lying either, in the heat of the moment I just forgot to mention that in my post. After that it got all focused on the "lying" and I failed to take a step back and clarify that it's all just in case someone assumes both are lying which isn't necessarily true...

That's a really illuminating example of what I had in mind in post #118 above, Moonlily!

[volcanohunter]

*The reason these aren't specific is that I just spent 10 minutes on google trying to find the names of the other two black female soloists, so I could look up when they were at ABT. With no luck.

Perhaps one of the reasons is that reviews of Anne Benna Sims and Nora Kimball tended to make no mention of race. Anna Kisselgoff may have thought it would have been patronizing to do so.

[Helene]

I wouldn't expect to find the info in a review, but it would certainly appear in a feature. Did no one with online archives think the first black female to make soloist at ABT was a notable event?

Nora Kimball's Wikipedia article is woeful:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nora_Kimball

"Nora Koito Kimball-Mentzos or simply Nora Kimball is a ballet teacher and former American ballerina, who is often overlooked for being one of the first African American female soloists – if not the first – at American Ballet Theatre (ABT)"

They're not sure.

Anna Benna Sims' is skeletal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Benna_Sims

It does say she "was the first African-American danceuse at American Ballet Theatre." from a 1981 "Jet" article. BlackPast.org's article on Copeland says,

Misty Copeland is one of only a handful of African American soloist ballerinas in the world. When Copeland was just a newborn two ballerinas, Anne Benna Sims and Nora Kimball, respectively, became the first and second African American soloists for the American Ballet Theatre (ABT) in New York, a ballet company which along with the New York City Ballet (NYCB), is considered to be one of the two top classical ballet companies in the United States. In 2007 Copeland became the third African American soloist in ABT’s history.

http://www.blackpast.org/aah/copeland-misty-1982

The only references I can find on the site are in the Misty Copeland article. I can't find anything that says when they left ABT. Kimball's Wikipedia article says she was in Frankfurt by 1991; there is a source review for her with ABT from 1987. A promising source about black US dancers abroad has a dead link. I never knew she danced in John Adams' "El Nino."

I'm not sure if Sims and Kimball overlapped at ABT: she was dancing with Les Grandes Ballet Canadiens in 1972, so she'd be older. In the "Jet" article she speaks about racism she encountered.

[vipa]

Perhaps one of the reasons is that reviews of Anne Benna Sims and Nora Kimball tended to make no mention of race. Anna Kisselgoff may have thought it would have been patronizing to do so.

I agree. Race is not typically mentioned in reviews. I can't imagine a reviewer mentioning that Craig Hall is black. My personal opinion is that Copeland has made her career so much about race that we'll never read an honest review about her. Maybe that's not fair, maybe it's just that as a reader I will never trust that a reviewer is not holding back. The NYTimes reviewer who felt free to say that a Sugar Plum Fairy ate too many sugar plums, and who named some well established dancers as "half ballerinas" will never feel the freedom to be so negative about Copeland.

[volcanohunter]

Nora Kimball's Wikipedia article is woeful:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nora_Kimball

Unfortunately, many Wikipedia articles on ballet dancers are in woeful condition.

Take Sara Mearns:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Mearns

Ashley Bouder's at least includes her repertoire:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Bouder

There is no Wikipedia article on Tiler Peck. And this at a time when a plethora of information about them is readily accessible in online press sources.

[canbelto]

I agree. Race is not typically mentioned in reviews. I can't imagine a reviewer mentioning that Craig Hall is black. My personal opinion is that Copeland has made her career so much about race that we'll never read an honest review about her. Maybe that's not fair, maybe it's just that as a reader I will never trust that a reviewer is not holding back. The NYTimes reviewer who felt free to say that a Sugar Plum Fairy ate too many sugar plums, and who named some well established dancers as "half ballerinas" will never feel the freedom to be so negative about Copeland.

By the same token I will never trust that people who excorciate Misty's performance aren't letting their prejudices about what O/O should look like, their aesthetic preferences for a thin, "white" body, and how a ballerina should "behave" cloud their judgments. Falling off pointe, traveling on fouettes, cutting short the 32, are things I've seen many major ballerinas do. And many of the criticisms are so personal and vile that I doubt they go way beyond not liking how the ballerina dances. So it cuts both ways.

Racism isn't just George Wallace bellowing about segregation forever. Attitudes can be subtle and they can come out in ugly ways and I think we've seen that in some of the Misty discussions.

[Helene]

Unfortunately, many Wikipedia articles on ballet dancers are in woeful condition.

True, but not that many say "one of the first ... – if not the first."

[volcanohunter]

I suppose Shelley Washington tends to be forgotten in this discussion because as a former Graham and Tharp dancer she wasn't "really" an ABT soloist. Right.

https://balletsj.wordpress.com/2014/10/22/guest-stager-shelley-washington/

[nanushka]

By the same token I will never trust that people who excorciate Misty's performance aren't letting their prejudices about what O/O should look like, their aesthetic preferences for a thin, "white" body, and how a ballerina should "behave" cloud their judgments. Falling off pointe, traveling on fouettes, cutting short the 32, are things I've seen many major ballerinas do. And many of the criticisms are so personal and vile that I doubt they go way beyond not liking how the ballerina dances. So it cuts both ways.

Racism isn't just George Wallace bellowing about segregation forever. Attitudes can be subtle and they can come out in ugly ways and I think we've seen that in some of the Misty discussions.

Certainly something more than just an objective analysis of the quality of Misty's dancing is happening in some of those responses that are at times, as you say, excoriating. However, I think it's important to keep in mind that there is a whole range of possible biases that may be motivating those responses. A reaction against Misty's race is just one possibility. True, some may not want to see anything other than a white body onstage. But others may not, for example, want to see their own personal favorite dancers get overshadowed by a dancer they think is overly self-promoting. And still others may have quite different subjective reasons for finding Misty intolerable.

My point is not that any of these biases justifies an excoriating description of Misty's dancing. My point is that one should be careful not to assume that those with whom one disagrees are driven by the darkest possible motives. Discussions such as these break down when people begin jumping to conclusions about the hidden meanings behind others' words -- especially because, as I've noted, there's a tendency to assume that others have more extreme opposite views than is necessarily the case.

[nanushka]

I wouldn't expect to find the info in a review, but it would certainly appear in a feature.

The info (though inexact in terms of dates) is in the article by Theresa Ruth Howard that I linked to upthread:

She is in fact the third to hold this ranking (admittedly an abysmally low number overall), having been preceded by Anne Benna Sims in the 1970’s and Nora Kimball in the mid-80s.

[Helene]

I suppose Shelley Washington tends to be forgotten in this discussion because as a former Graham and Tharp dancer she wasn't "really" an ABT soloist. Right.

https://balletsj.wordpress.com/2014/10/22/guest-stager-shelley-washington/

I think many people at the time didn't believe that the dancers Tharp brought with her were "really" ABT, but instead were a troop-within-a-troop that was a deal to get Tharp.

Copeland's Wikipedia article isn't the only thing that needs updating...

The info (though inexact in terms of dates) is in the article by Theresa Ruth Howard that I linked to upthread:

My point is that after 10 minutes of searching, this neither showed up nor is it, the most comprehensive article to date, specific enough to answer any of those questions. Nor was it a feature article written at the time to note that ABT had its first black soloist, something newsworthy, entirely appropriate, and hardly patronizing.

[abatt]

However, I think it's important to keep in mind that there is a whole range of possible biases that may be motivating those responses. A reaction against Misty's race is just one possibility. True, some may not want to see anything other than a white body onstage.

The audience that McKenzie is now attempting to tap into are those who prefer to see non-white bodies on stage in a lead role. It's a segment of the population that might never have attended any ABT ballet performance but for the fact that an African American is cast in the lead. The interesting question for me is what percentage of this audience will return for the rest of the ABT shows in which Misty is not performing. Will this lead to the casting of Misty multiple times per week for as many shows as she can handle.

[nanushka]

My point is that after 10 minutes of searching, this neither showed up nor is it, the most comprehensive article to date, specific enough to answer any of those questions. Nor was it a feature article written at the time to note that ABT had its first black soloist, something newsworthy, entirely appropriate, and hardly patronizing.

Yes, I understood your point. I was just providing the info (i.e. the dates -- though still inexact -- of their being at ABT, which you'd originally said you were unable to find) in case you had still not found it.

[Helene]

Thanks -- it's an important link.

[canbelto]

The audience that McKenzie is now attempting to tap into are those who prefer to see non-white bodies on stage in a lead role. It's a segment of the population that might never have attended any ABT ballet performance but for the fact that an African American is cast in the lead. The interesting question for me is what percentage of this audience will return for the rest of the ABT shows in which Misty is not performing. Will this lead to the casting of Misty multiple times per week for as many shows as she can handle.

How do you know? Have you ever talked to them? Or do you just assume because they're African American?

[nanushka]

How do you know? Have you ever talked to them? Or do you just assume because they're African American?

Which assumption of abatt's are you questioning here? That there are people who prefer to see non-white dancers in lead roles? That McKenzie is attempting to tap into that audience? That people with that preference might never have attended an ABT performance if there weren't an opportunity to see a non-white dancer in the lead?

[canbelto]

The audience that McKenzie is now attempting to tap into are those who prefer to see non-white bodies on stage in a lead role. It's a segment of the population that might never have attended any ABT ballet performance but for the fact that an African American is cast in the lead.

This assumption. That Misty's audience "prefers" to see non-white bodies onstage, and it's a "segment" (what an ugly word) of the population that would never go to the ballet otherwise. I don't see why such ugly assumptions about the cultural awareness, of, you know, an ENTIRE RACE is being made. For the record NYC ballet audiences are fairly culturally diverse and they were before Misty ever danced Swan Lake.

And there are Russians who turn out in droves only when a Russian dancer is dancing. I'd say the Eifman Ballet tours probably appeal to a 80-90% Russian audience. But I don't see complaints about that.

[nanushka]

This assumption. That Misty's audience "prefers" to see non-white bodies onstage, and it's a "segment" (what an ugly word) of the population that would never go to the ballet otherwise. I don't see why such ugly assumptions about the cultural awareness, of, you know, an ENTIRE RACE is being made. For the record NYC ballet audiences are fairly culturally diverse and they were before Misty ever danced Swan Lake.

I think if you read abatt's comment carefully you'll see that you are mischaracterizing what it says. This is exactly the type of mischaracterization I was describing above, based on an assumption that others' views are more in extreme opposition to one's own than they may in fact be.

abatt does not say that the entire black race prefers to see non-white dancers.

abatt does not say that the entire black race would not go to the ballet otherwise.

abatt does not say that Misty's' entire audience prefers to see non-white dancers.

abatt does not say anything at all about any entire race or about Misty's audience in general.

abatt says that KM is attempting to draw those who do prefer to see non-white dancers. And abatt says that those who do prefer to see non-white dancers may not come to the ballet otherwise.

I'm not saying I agree, but it's important to make sure one is disagreeing with what another is actually saying.

[nanushka]

And there are Russians who turn out in droves only when a Russian dancer is dancing. I'd say the Eifman Ballet tours probably appeal to a 80-90% Russian audience. But I don't see complaints about that.

abatt did not complain about people preferring to see non-white dancers.

[canbelto]

I think if you read abatt's comment carefully you'll see that you are mischaracterizing what it says. This is exactly the type of mischaracterization I was describing above, based on an assumption that others' views are more in extreme opposition to one's own than they may in fact be.

abatt does not say that the entire black race prefers to see non-white dancers.

abatt does not say that the entire black race would not go to the ballet otherwise.

abatt does not say that Misty's' entire audience prefers to see non-white dancers.

abatt does not say anything at all about any entire race or about Misty's audience in general.

abatt says that KM is attempting to draw those who do prefer to see non-white dancers. And abatt says that those who do prefer to see non-white dancers may not come to the ballet otherwise.

I'm not saying I agree, but it's important to make sure one is disagreeing with what another is actually saying.

She doesn't have to. Certain things don't have to be said -- they are implied, overtly or covertly. There is a long history in the U.S. of using code messages and words to deflect from talking about race outright. In the South, it's not that politicians wanted to uphold segregation, they want to "preserve the Southern way of life" and "protect Southern womenfolk." It's time to just call a spade a spade and recognize this for what it is: old-fashioned racism.

And for the record, I don't even consider myself a fan of Misty's dancing. I think she has a very weak to non-existent jump and dances with a sort of brittle efficiency that characterizes so many ABT soloists. But I'd never attack her personal life, her morals, her appearance, her ethics, her character, even her audience that doesn't know how to "behave," and even make assumptions about her relationship with her colleagues, just because I don't know her (or anyone else in ABT) from a hole in the wall.

[abatt]

I don't understand why anyone would regard the word "segment" as a racially charged word. Mckenzie is looking to attract a segment, a group, a portion, of people, who do not otherwise attend. Projecting a racial overtone to a neutral word like segment is based on your own views, and has no reality in the actual meaning of the word. There is no "code message". Canbelto, Your misinterpretation is way out of left field.

[nanushka]

She doesn't have to. Certain things don't have to be said -- they are implied, overtly or covertly. There is a long history in the U.S. of using code messages and words to deflect from talking about race outright. In the South, it's not that politicians wanted to uphold segregation, they want to "preserve the Southern way of life" and "protect Southern womenfolk." It's time to just call a spade a spade and recognize this for what it is: old-fashioned racism.

And for the record, I don't even consider myself a fan of Misty's dancing. I think she has a very weak to non-existent jump and dances with a sort of brittle efficiency that characterizes so many ABT soloists. But I'd never attack her personal life, her morals, her appearance, her ethics, her character, even her audience that doesn't know how to "behave," and even make assumptions about her relationship with her colleagues, just because I don't know her (or anyone else in ABT) from a hole in the wall.

Okay, well if you choose to read what other people say as coded messages and attach non-articulated meanings to those messages, then it becomes very difficult, perhaps impossible, to have a reasonable conversation. A lot of us discussing this issue have much subtler and more complex and more conflicted views than the two obvious poles of the discussion would suggest. And I think it's essential to recognize that. We've seen elsewhere (e.g. in the discussion of what kfw meant in complaining about the word "honor" -- which had nothing to do with Misty in particular and was purely a language quibble, not a point about race) how assumptions about others' hidden extremist views can cause us to misunderstand the basic meanings of what they say.

And in your second paragraph above you're lumping together a lot of different claims that have been made about Misty. You seem to assume that anyone who says anything negative about her shares all of those beliefs. I think that's problematic.

[nanushka]

There is a long history in the U.S. of using code messages and words to deflect from talking about race outright. In the South, it's not that politicians wanted to uphold segregation, they want to "preserve the Southern way of life" and "protect Southern womenfolk."

And by the way, I'm not disputing the point you make here, or the history behind it. I just think that it's important not to assume that what sounds like it may be a coded message actually is one and thus to jump right to an accusation. I think it's better to engage with what someone is saying and to try to understand what they really mean and think, when that's not immediately clear. When one does so, one often finds that others' views are less clear-cut than one assumes.