Misty Copeland

[kfw]

I would note that young girls have seen nipples before and are not generally horrified by them. They do not (yet) see them as sexualized things. They have them, and many have fed from them fairly recently.

That argument would apply here if only very young girls looked up to Copeland, and if those girls could be expected never to grow up.

The other thing that should be said about “strumpet” and “wench” is that not only are they inaccurate in content - to use kbarber's words, no one's comparing posing for a photo with "promiscuity" or "prostitution" - but their tone is all wrong. it’s possible to criticize without insulting, and to criticize people for one thing while admiring them for another, as I have done. Caricatures distort, and blur the difference.

[aurora]

I would note that young girls have seen nipples before and are not generally horrified by them. They do not (yet) see them as sexualized things. They have them, and many have fed from them fairly recently.

That argument would apply here if only very young girls looked up to Copeland, and if those girls could be expected never to grow up.

The other thing that should be said about “strumpet” and “wench” is that not only are they inaccurate in content - to use kbarber's words, no one's comparing posing for a photo with "promiscuity" or "prostitution" - but their tone is all wrong. it’s possible to criticize without insulting, and to criticize people for one thing while admiring them for another, as I have done. Caricatures distort, and blur the difference.

The difference is that you and YID seem to think those girls should grow up to think their bodies are shameful or distasteful, whereas I don't.

I also must have missed where you expressed any genuine admiration for her...And I have been following this thread pretty closely. Any vaguely positive thing you have said has been so embedded in negativity that it had no resonance whatsoever and certainly no sense of sincerity.

Lastly, you say, several posts above that:

"Copeland’s hardly the first dancer to display herself, but she may be the first to do so while claiming to want to be a role model to young girls, and that has been the context of the actual criticism."

I neither know nor care if it is true that she is the first to do so while claiming to want to be a role model to young girls. But you are out of your mind if you don't realize that both Ferri and Guillem were incredible role models to young girls.

They were role models who reached a much larger audience than Copeland does at this point in her career, recent coverage notwithstanding. So if showing a nip is really a horrible offense they are equally to blame.

[abatt]

The photo of Ferri is more tasteful and less obvious than Copeland's photo. Copeland previoulsy had a photo where she was completely topless, but then removed it. I think you have mischaracterized what YID and kfw are saying. Is it necessary for a woman to send out topless photos of herself in order to prove that she is not ashamed of her body? I don't think so. That's not empowerment of women. It's the same sort of objectification of women that has been going on for a long, long time. Misty is sending out a message that in order to get ahead you should use your sexuality to advance and get attention. It's the absolute wrong message to be sending out to young girls. Empowerment comes from merit and strength, not objectification and willingness to display your boobs to the world.

[kfw]

I think you have mischaracterized what YID and kfw are saying. Is it necessary for a woman to send out topless photos of herself in order to prove that she is not ashamed of her body? I don't think so. That's not empowerment of women. It's the same sort of objectification of women that has been going on for a long, long time. Misty is sending out a message that in order to get ahead you should use your sexuality to advance and get attention. It's the absolute wrong message to be sending out to young girls. Empowerment comes from merit and strength, not objectification.

Well put. aurora wrote:

you are out of your mind if you don't realize that both Ferri and Guillem were incredible role models to young girls.

Right, which is why I said no such thing. Nor did I say, or do I think, anything as bizarre as that “girls should grow up to think their bodies are shameful or distasteful,” or that showing a nipple is "really a horrible offense.” Not every unfortunate act is horrible, or is an offense. Again, tone matters, and the wrong tone distorts content.

I also must have missed where you expressed any genuine admiration for her...And I have been following this thread pretty closely.

See above. I’m sorry to say, I’m not surprised.

[Kathleen O'Connell]

The photo of Ferri is more tasteful and less obvious than Copeland's photo.

I honestly don't see the difference between the two photos; if anything, the photo of Ferri looks to be even more about her breasts. At least in the photo of Copeland we can see her whole (rather glorious) form, not to mention her toe shoes.

[aurora]

The photo of Ferri is more tasteful and less obvious than Copeland's photo. Copeland previoulsy had a photo where she was completely topless, but then removed it. I think you have mischaracterized what YID and kfw are saying. Is it necessary for a woman to send out topless photos of herself in order to prove that she is not ashamed of her body? I don't think so. That's not empowerment of women. It's the same sort of objectification of women that has been going on for a long, long time. Misty is sending out a message that in order to get ahead you should use your sexuality to advance and get attention. It's the absolute wrong message to be sending out to young girls. Empowerment comes from merit and strength, not objectification and willingness to display your boobs to the world.

Speaking of mischaracterizations! Your post is nothing but, Abatt.

Your opinion is that Ferri's photo is more tasteful and less obvious, but that is not an objective opinion. It is a legitimate one, but not more so than the inverse.

I have no idea what you are basing your assessment of Copeland's photo on, but she is wearing a leotard. She was not originally completely topless. and your phrasing makes no sense: "she was completely topless, but then removed it." What is "it" her toplessness?

In any case, it is clear she is wearing a semi-transparent leopard. She was not originally nude.

I did not say that it is necessary for a woman to send out topless photos of herself in order to prove that she is not ashamed of her body.

You don't think so, nor do I. But I don't think that it is a shameful thing if one sees a glimpse of nipple, which has been the tenor of argument here.

The only ones who are denigrating women are the people who are castigating her for choosing to portray herself as she likes.

Slut shaming is not empowering women. Saying things like "empowerment comes from merit and strength, not objectification and willingness to display your boobs to the world," as admirable as the first part might be, does not really speak to the feminist cause of female equality.

It is priggish and nasty.

[Helene]

I think that the photo of Ferri is more artsy, but that her expression is much more sexualized than Copeland's, which is more direct.

I see both as fine photos, and I see no problem with either woman posing for these photos or agreeing to release them, linking to them, etc. I don't think they are in any way diminished or "tainted" as role models for girls.

Taste is in the eye of the beholder.

[abatt]

It is priggish and nasty.

No. Objection to the photo is called advocating for modesty and demureness in someone who is presenting herself as a role model to young girls.

[aurora]

It is priggish and nasty.

No. Objection to the photo is called advocating for modesty and demureness in someone who is presenting herself as a role model to young girls.

We don't expect modesty and demureness of men/boys. I fail to see why in this day and age this is the behavior we expect of girls and women.

It is sexist.

adjective

adjective: demure; comparative adjective: demurer; superlative adjective: demurest

(of a woman or her behavior) reserved, modest, and shy.

"a demure little wife who sits at home minding the house"

synonyms: modest, unassuming, meek, mild, reserved, retiring, quiet, shy, bashful, diffident, reticent, timid, shrinking, coy; More

decorous, decent, seemly, ladylike, respectable, proper, virtuous, pure, innocent, chaste;

sober, sedate, staid, prim, goody-goody, strait-laced

"a demure Victorian miss"

antonyms: brazen

That isn't the kind of role model I'd want for my daughters (nothing wrong "respectable" or "decent" but most of those? no thanks)

[Helene]

Modesty and demureness, happily, are more of an option for Copeland and Ferro, unlike where refusing to be crushed by that "norm" could be deadly. The only place modesty is a requirement in ballet is while dancing Aurora and Giselle, and, thankfully, demureness is also an option, not a requirement even there.

[Cygnet]

The photo of Ferri is more tasteful and less obvious than Copeland's photo. Copeland previoulsy had a photo where she was completely topless, but then removed it. I think you have mischaracterized what YID and kfw are saying. Is it necessary for a woman to send out topless photos of herself in order to prove that she is not ashamed of her body? I don't think so. That's not empowerment of women. It's the same sort of objectification of women that has been going on for a long, long time. Misty is sending out a message that in order to get ahead you should use your sexuality to advance and get attention. It's the absolute wrong message to be sending out to young girls. Empowerment comes from merit and strength, not objectification and willingness to display your boobs to the world.

I co-sign your post re the Beyonce of ABT. There have been more, eh hem, prurient photo spreads of dancers. For example, I remember Guillem's full nude split pose in French Vogue when she was in her prime, and the discussion that prompted at the time. I think that the culture as a whole is becoming desensitized, where nothing shocks anymore. As far as Misty's artistry is concerned, no amount of skin exposure can back that up. Misty isn't another Stephanie Dabney or Virginia Johnson, two pioneering ballerinas who were indeed role models for their race.

[kfw]

We don't expect modesty and demureness of men/boys.

Speak for yourself. I think modesty is every bit a gentleman's responsibility as it is a lady's. And I know many, many people who think the same.

[aurora]

We don't expect modesty and demureness of men/boys.

Speak for yourself. I think modesty is every bit a gentleman's responsibility as it is a lady's. And I know many, many people who think the same.

Read the dictionary definition of demure as quoted. It is gendered.

[Tapfan]

The photo of Ferri is more tasteful and less obvious than Copeland's photo. Copeland previoulsy had a photo where she was completely topless, but then removed it. I think you have mischaracterized what YID and kfw are saying. Is it necessary for a woman to send out topless photos of herself in order to prove that she is not ashamed of her body? I don't think so. That's not empowerment of women. It's the same sort of objectification of women that has been going on for a long, long time. Misty is sending out a message that in order to get ahead you should use your sexuality to advance and get attention. It's the absolute wrong message to be sending out to young girls. Empowerment comes from merit and strength, not objectification and willingness to display your boobs to the world.

I co-sign your post re the Beyonce of ABT. There have been more, eh hem, prurient photo spreads of dancers. For example, I remember Guillem's full nude split pose in French Vogue when she was in her prime, and the discussion that prompted at the time. I think that the culture as a whole is becoming desensitized, where nothing shocks anymore. As far as Misty's artistry is concerned, no amount of skin exposure can back that up. Misty isn't another Stephanie Dabney or Virginia Johnson, two pioneering ballerinas who were indeed role models for their race.

"Role models for their race." Yikes. That sounds pretty retro.

I don't think there can be such a thing as a one-size-fits-all role model for an entire race. Is Tiler Peck a role model for all white classical dancers?

Misty gets most of the attention because she pursues it. HARD. But there's room to notice other black female classical dancers. And the importance of modesty in a role model, is quite subjective.

[kfw]

We don't expect modesty and demureness of men/boys.

Speak for yourself. I think modesty is every bit a gentleman's responsibility as it is a lady's. And I know many, many people who think the same.

Read the dictionary definition of demure as quoted. It is gendered.

Read what people actually write and quit putting words in their mouths. I didn't even use the word "demure" (which is indeed gendered, and which is only one form of modesty- women can be modest without being demure), What I am telling you is that I and plenty of other people hold men and women to the same standards.

[Helene]

Read what people actually write and quit putting words in their mouths. I didn't even use the word "demure" (which is indeed gendered, and which is only one form of modesty- women can be modest without being demure), What I am telling you is that I and plenty of other people hold men and women to the same standards.

aurora quoted abatt, who used the terms "modesty" and "demureness." She did not put those words into abatt's keyboard, and she rightly pointed out how demureness is gendered in definition, a double standard when not expected of boys.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember a trail of commentary or distaste when male dancers have done what, by the standards applied to Copeland, are far from modest in photos.

[Helene]

"Role models for their race." Yikes. That sounds pretty retro.

"Retro" is a kind way of putting it.

[kfw]

Read what people actually write and quit putting words in their mouths. I didn't even use the word "demure" (which is indeed gendered, and which is only one form of modesty- women can be modest without being demure), What I am telling you is that I and plenty of other people hold men and women to the same standards.

aurora quoted abatt, who used the terms "modesty" and "demureness." She did not put those words into abatt's keyboard, and she rightly pointed out how demureness is gendered in definition, a double standard when not expected of boys.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember a trail of commentary or distaste when male dancers have done what, by the standards applied to Copeland, are far from modest in photos.

I wrote that " I think modesty is every bit a gentleman's responsibility as it is a lady's," and aurora countered - to me, not abatt - with the dictionary definition of demure, which had nothing to do with it. That's clear. And I find the shots of male dancers that she posted as distasteful as the one of Copeland. As I was saying . . .

Tapfan, Copeland herself has said she wants to be a role model for black kids. I can't imagine what's wrong with noting that she is one. It doesn't imply she's only a model for them. Does anyone object when people cite Obama as a great role model for black kids? The irony is that for the most part she has been a fantastic role model for any kid.

[Cygnet]

The photo of Ferri is more tasteful and less obvious than Copeland's photo. Copeland previoulsy had a photo where she was completely topless, but then removed it. I think you have mischaracterized what YID and kfw are saying. Is it necessary for a woman to send out topless photos of herself in order to prove that she is not ashamed of her body? I don't think so. That's not empowerment of women. It's the same sort of objectification of women that has been going on for a long, long time. Misty is sending out a message that in order to get ahead you should use your sexuality to advance and get attention. It's the absolute wrong message to be sending out to young girls. Empowerment comes from merit and strength, not objectification and willingness to display your boobs to the world.

I co-sign your post re the Beyonce of ABT. There have been more, eh hem, prurient photo spreads of dancers. For example, I remember Guillem's full nude split pose in French Vogue when she was in her prime, and the discussion that prompted at the time. I think that the culture as a whole is becoming desensitized, where nothing shocks anymore. As far as Misty's artistry is concerned, no amount of skin exposure can back that up. Misty isn't another Stephanie Dabney or Virginia Johnson, two pioneering ballerinas who were indeed role models for their race.

"Role models for their race." Yikes. That sounds pretty retro.

I don't think there can be such a thing as a one-size-fits-all role model for an entire race. Is Tiler peck a role model for all white classical dancers?

Misty gets most of the attention because she pursues it. HARD. But there's room to notice other black female classical dancers. And levels of modesty their importance in being looked up to, is quite subjective.

If that "sounds pretty retro" so be it. I didn't state that there was such a thing "as one size fits all," quite the contrary. Let me clarify: Johnson and Dabney & et.al. (that's "other black female classical dancers"), paved the way for a Misty Copeland to happen in the first place. If Misty wants to empower herself in whichever manner she chooses to do it, that's her business. As for her hard pursuit for notoriety, we are (currently) discussing her pr/selfie moves and not so much her dancing. Now, if that was her intent, then mission accomplished.

[aurora]

Read what people actually write and quit putting words in their mouths. I didn't even use the word "demure" (which is indeed gendered, and which is only one form of modesty- women can be modest without being demure), What I am telling you is that I and plenty of other people hold men and women to the same standards.

aurora quoted abatt, who used the terms "modesty" and "demureness." She did not put those words into abatt's keyboard, and she rightly pointed out how demureness is gendered in definition, a double standard when not expected of boys.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember a trail of commentary or distaste when male dancers have done what, by the standards applied to Copeland, are far from modest in photos.

I wrote that " I think modesty is every bit a gentleman's responsibility as it is a lady's," and aurora countered - to me, not abatt - with the dictionary definition of demure, which had nothing to do with it. That's clear. And I find the shots of male dancers that she posted as distasteful as the one of Copeland. As I was saying . . .

By insisting on this, you are making me seriously regret my restraint in not responding to your direct attack on me (from a moderator, no less).

I initially responded to a post talking about modesty and demureness from Abatt. Although my response mentioned both, it concentrated on the word Demure. It was you who selectively ignored what I wrote (as you accuse me of doing) and addressed only modesty. I brought it back to what I did say, which revolved around the gendered nature of the word demure.

[abatt]

Seems like we have gotten hung up on the word demure. It can be gender specific, but Webster's does not refer to any gender in its definition. In fact, you will see that the word can be used to describe an object, such as a cottage. Webster's indicates it is defined as modest, reserved. That was the usage that I intended, FYI.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/demure

It's too bad that a meaningful discussion of the attributes of a ballet dancer have been twisted into an etymology tutorial, but there it is.

[aurora]

Seems like we have gotten hung up on the word demure. It can be gender specific, but Webster's does not refer to any gender in it's definition. Webster's indicates it is defined as modest, reserved. That was the usage that I intended, FYI.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/demure

I didn't actually mean for the conversation to be caught up on this, FYI.

Since we are here, however, I will say, that whether or not the definition includes gender, and whether you were thinking of gender in using it, it is a word that is, I think we can all (almost all?) agree, almost exclusively applied to behavior for girls and women.

I see that as an issue.

That is no way meant as an attack on you Abatt! Just something that is worth thinking about--generally speaking--with regards to what we expect as appropriate behavior.

It seems very old fashioned in what it is advocating. I think Little Women--but the most interesting of the sisters--Jo--is not demure.

I think of Jane Austen, yet her most vivid characters are criticized (in the time) for not being appropriately demure (Lizzie for example, walking through all that mud, talking boldly of her own opinions!).

Being demure sounds terrible. I couldn't advocate it for anyone. No one would tell a man to be a demure. EVER.

[kfw]

I initially responded to a post talking about modesty and demureness from Abatt. Although my response mentioned both, it concentrated on the word Demure. It was you who selectively ignored what I wrote (as you accuse me of doing) and addressed only modesty. I brought it back to what I did say, which revolved around the gendered nature of the word demure.

There is nothing wrong with addressing one thing someone says and not something else they said. That's how a good debate proceeds, with the parties narrowing down the discussion to what they disagree on. You used the word "we," and I argued that it was too broad. You responded to what I said with an argument addressing what I had not said - in other words, as if I had - and it's argument, as I noted above, that I agree with.

I think the bottom line here is that a few of us are criticizing a couple of things Copeland has done - things that people of all races and both sexes do - and others are trying every way possible to paint that criticism as racist and sexist. It won't wash.

[aurora]

I think the bottom line here is that a few of us are criticizing a couple of things Copeland has done - things that people of all races and both sexes do - and others are trying every way possible to paint that criticism as racist and sexist. It won't wash.

If you all weren't using racist and sexist ways of expressing yourselves, no one would be trying to paint your criticism of Copeland as racist and sexist, it is as simple as that.

I've showed this board to people who don't know who Copeland is, certainly don't know who you guys are, and they were horrified to read what they saw as blatantly and clearly racist screeds being posted publicly.

That was the reaction educated people had to your own words. This isn't some conspiracy. As you yourself noted, tone is very important and I think you must misjudge yours if you think that your posts have expressed any honest appreciation of Copeland (there has been some of what one might call "damning with faint praise," but nothing beyond that) and do not sound both racist and sexist.

[abatt]

I don't think that the criticism of Misty is based on race. If Stella Abrera, Sarah Lane or Isabella Boylton posted a topless photo while at the same time portraying themselves as role models for little kids and visiting youth centers people would have the exact same concerns.