Jump to content
This Site Uses Cookies. If You Want to Disable Cookies, Please See Your Browser Documentation. ×

Misty Copeland


Helene

Recommended Posts

Plenty of dancers have issues with simple steps over the course of their career. It's hardly rare.

Not at the level that Copeland wants to dance at.

Another example of a contemporary soloist at the Royal Ballet. Note - she is a minority, being Asian, Yahui Choe.

https://youtu.be/wj_4DcvIdkM

Again, she is even more advanced. Full range of motion in the leg from front attitude to full arabesque, all while hopping on pointe.

More examples...look on youtube for the variation. There are a plethora of dancers, all at different levels, from child to professional doing the same variation and hopping on pointe with no problems.

I don't know why people are making these insane concessions for Copeland. She clearly doesn't deserve them.

Link to comment

Not at the level that Copeland wants to dance at.

Another example of a contemporary soloist at the Royal Ballet. Note - she is a minority, being Asian, Yahui Choe.

https://youtu.be/wj_4DcvIdkM

Again, she is even more advanced. Full range of motion in the leg from front attitude to full arabesque, all while hopping on pointe.

More examples...look on youtube for the variation. There are a plethora of dancers, all at different levels, from child to professional doing the same variation and hopping on pointe with no problems.

I don't know why people are making these insane concessions for Copeland. She clearly doesn't deserve them.

Not this variation, but hops on point are a problem for a lot of dancers with very flexible feet. They have proved unpleasant for Veronika Part and for Alessandra Ferri. Both for that reason. You have to pull your ankle back slightly and not fully go over your foot to do them successfully.

Link to comment

I don't know why people are making these insane concessions for Copeland. She clearly doesn't deserve them.

I just keep remembering a comment about Danilova's performing, from some Ballet Russe documentary a few years ago. "Every turn was an adventure."

Link to comment

hops on point are a problem for a lot of dancers with very flexible feet. They have proved unpleasant for Veronika Part and for Alessandra Ferri. Both for that reason.

Ferri further complicated matters by completely pulling out the shanks from her pointe shoes. This would make it extremely difficult to hop on pointe, relying as she does solely on the strength of her feet.

Link to comment

Not this variation, but hops on point are a problem for a lot of dancers with very flexible feet. They have proved unpleasant for Veronika Part and for Alessandra Ferri. Both for that reason. You have to pull your ankle back slightly and not fully go over your foot to do them successfully.

The Giselle variation hops on pointe by Ferri. No problems. Granted she isn't as magical as Kirkland was in the variation but she didn't fall off pointe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEsRl0EwKog

I've seen Ferri dance, at her prime, at ABT... she never displayed the problems that I see in Copeland. To compare them is ludicrous.

Part, I've only seen in clips. She is a beautiful dancer. There are clips of her gliding around in the Nutcracker variation that Copeland just lumbers though.

Link to comment
I don't know why people are making these insane concessions for Copeland. She clearly doesn't deserve them.

Sometimes both the tone and content of the criticisms of Copeland seem to me a little...I won't say insane, but over the top.

Not this variation, but hops on point are a problem for a lot of dancers with very flexible feet. They have proved unpleasant for Veronika Part and for Alessandra Ferri. Both for that reason. You have to pull your ankle back slightly and not fully go over your foot to do them successfully.

I'll add another name. Borchenko, a leading ballerina at the Mikhailovsky and a much admired Odette-Odile fell off point during the sequence of turning hops for the "ballerina" character in Flames of Paris--I saw this when the Mikhailovsky toured to NY. It's not that it's a good thing to have these problems--Copeland was kicking herself for a reason--but it's also not like falling off pointe during hops etc. has proven a guaranteed career ender. (Heck, if video evidence is anything to go by, even Skoryk seems to be winning out over her fall-off-pointe demons.)

Kaskait responded as I was typing and included a video link to Ferri successfully negotiating the hops in Giselle. But the point is not that this or that ballerina could never do them at any time, but that the step has been known to cause ballerinas problems, including acknowledged quality ballerinas like Ferri or Part. So: I saw Borchenko fall off pointe doing hops in Flames of Paris, but I'm sure at other performances she has negotated them just fine. The other point Kaskait made--that Copeland is not in the same category as Ferri or Part...well, at this point I agree. I don't think Copeland is comparable to Alessandra Ferri or Veronika Part etc.--certainly not at this point in her career--but I don't think she should yet be written off as Princess Florine in the new Sleeping Beauty either. And that seems to me more the real issue. I'm hoping to see her dance the role in the theater (I have tickets for several performances) and then I'll have a better idea.

Link to comment

Sometimes both the tone and content of the criticisms of Copeland seem to me a little...I won't say insane, but over the top.

thanks.GIF

I love Veronica Part, but if I judged her by her performance of the Lilac fairy this last spring in SoCal, I'd miss out on her always stunning Nikiya in Bayadere and write her off as horrible.

I'm not saying Copeland deserves a pass for her miscues, but the criticism of her is definitely over the top. Same with the criticism of Boylston.

For me personally, if one writes twenty negative things about a dancer and doesn't see one positive thing, I'm not going to take your opinion very seriously. Not that you care, as I'm of no importance. But I refuse to believe any dancer should be categorized as either the second coming or as scum on my shoe.

Link to comment

thanks.GIF

I love Veronica Part, but if I judged her by her performance of the Lilac fairy this last spring in SoCal, I'd miss out on her always stunning Nikiya in Bayadere and write her off as horrible.

I'm not saying Copeland deserves a pass for her miscues, but the criticism of her is definitely over the top. Same with the criticism of Boylston.

For me personally, if one writes twenty negative things about a dancer and doesn't see one positive thing, I'm not going to take your opinion very seriously. Not that you care, as I'm of no importance. But I refuse to believe any dancer should be categorized as either the second coming or as scum on my shoe.

thanks.GIF Very much agree.

Link to comment

I'm wondering what coaching Part and Copeland are getting . Back in my day it was the responsibility of the staff to help you with your weaknesses in technique while rehearsing a soloist role. If -after weeks of working on it and still there was no improvement- the role would be taken away from you. It seems that there are many other factors that contribute to less than adequate performances- lack of rehearsals, nerves,lighting,slight injuries,etc. Dancers are rarely given positive feedback. Give them a break.

Link to comment

I'm wondering what coaching Part and Copeland are getting . Back in my day it was the responsibility of the staff to help you with your weaknesses in technique while rehearsing a soloist role. If -after weeks of working on it and still there was no improvement- the role would be taken away from you. It seems that there are many other factors that contribute to less than adequate performances- lack of rehearsals, nerves,lighting,slight injuries,etc. Dancers are rarely given positive feedback. Give them a break.

ABT doesn't really coach their dancers. Their pretty notorious for it actually. Only 5 ballet masters on staff... Terrible. One, Keith Roberts, has only been with the company for 2 years. And they heavily rely on Irina Kolpakova for the females. The other 3 ballet masters I'm confused on why they are ballet masters when, in my opinion, there have been more qualified people whom have danced with ABT to coach. From social media I've seen Stiefel helping dancers like Calvin Royal and Stearns.

Link to comment

In one of the ABT at 75 Works & Process series at the Guggenheim, Stiefel coached Royal, but I've forgotten which variation. (Maybe "Swan Lake Pas de Trois?") I think I'm remembering correctly that he received a prize and is using some of that money on working with Stiefel.

Link to comment

In my program from tonight, Susan Jones, Irina Kolpakova, Clinton Luckett, Nancy Raffa and Keith Roberts are listed as ballet masters. We know Susan specifically deals with the corps. That leaves 4 for all the soloists/principals; 2 for the men, 2 for the women. That's pretty horrendously small number, considering every dancer at the Mariinsky has his/her own coach. Even NYCB, my program lists 11 ballet masters (Karin Von Aroldingen, Albert Evans, Jean-Pierre Frohlich, Susan Hendl, Lisa Jackson, Glennn Keenan, Sara Leland, Christine Redpath, Jonathan Stafford, Richard Tanner, and Kathleen Tracey) plus 5 guest teachers (Espen Giljane, Arch Higgins, Darci Kistler and Andre Kramarevsky).

Link to comment

People criticize dancers like Misty, Isabella, and Hee not quite matching up to international (mainly Russian) dancers. But is it really a surprise that they are deficient when they get little to nil coaching and preparation like the latter do? No. They basically have to rely on themselves or other dancers to help with their variations with a one-on-one here and there from Irina. Terrible for a supposed top rated company. Same with Simkin, Hammoudi, heck everybody on the roster down to the corp who have issues. All those dancers have the goods to be brilliant, but it's not being realized because the company isn't invested in creating their own quality dancers.

Tragic.

Link to comment

People criticize dancers like Misty, Isabella, and Hee not quite matching up to international (mainly Russian) dancers. But is it really a surprise that they are deficient when they get little to nil coaching and preparation like the latter do? No. They basically have to rely on themselves or other dancers to help with their variations with a one-on-one here and there from Irina. Terrible for a supposed top rated company. Same with Simkin, Hammoudi, heck everybody on the roster down to the corp who have issues. All those dancers have the goods to be brilliant, but it's not being realized because the company isn't invested in creating their own quality dancers.

Tragic.

Coaching is one thing but lacking basic technique is quite another. The basics should have been down cold. Boyleston should already have refined epaulement. Seo should have had her stamina and footwork down cold. Copeland shares the same faults as the prior two dancers. Plus she has an overbuilt body and very bad hyper-extension. Coaching is not going to fix these faults. Coaching is for refining the choreography not retrain the dancers. Retraining and getting rid of bad habits is strictly up to the dancer. All these dancers are around or over 30, if they don't have what is required now, they will never have it. Their strength is fading. Simple biology.

Link to comment

I'd expect NYCB to have more ballet masters, although 11 is considerably more than in the '80's and 90's, where there were a few dedicated to Robbins and a children's BM in addition to the Balanchine BM's. The company is bigger and there are many times the number of individual works and leads in any season. There are a lot more choreographers covered as well, not just the big two, Balanchine and Robbins with a smattering of other choreographers, like early Martins, and maybe a Tanner, a Bonnefoux, a Tomasson, and/or a Taras or two.

NYCB dancers always talk about being taught roles by each other, and having to learn new roles over dinnertime. There are also more dancers who are fast-tracked through the ranks and/or given Principal parts from the corps. I've never read that they have had a close-to-ideal ideal coaching situation there.

Link to comment

I'd expect NYCB to have more ballet masters, although 11 is considerably more than in the '80's and 90's, where there were a few dedicated to Robbins and a children's BM in addition to the Balanchine BM's. The company is bigger and there are many times the number of individual works and leads in any season. There are a lot more choreographers covered as well, not just the big two, Balanchine and Robbins with a smattering of other choreographers, like early Martins, and maybe a Tanner, a Bonnefoux, a Tomasson, and/or a Taras or two.

NYCB dancers always talk about being taught roles by each other, and having to learn new roles over dinnertime. There are also more dancers who are fast-tracked through the ranks and/or given Principal parts from the corps. I've never read that they have had a close-to-ideal ideal coaching situation there.

I think one difference in NYCB is that the dancers spend a year or, in most cases more, in SAB. The have variations and partnering classes that are taught by former members of the company so they get a feel for they style and what's expected. I would think that would help at least a little.

Link to comment

The day I feel it okay to say some of the negative things I've heard said about dancers like Copeland and Boylston, is the day I stop going to performances.

You're probably correct. I grew so frustrated by the continually falling standards of operatic singing--and constantly complaining about it--that within the past couple of years I essentially gave up on the art form. And what I've seen and heard during my now infrequent encounters with opera, whether live, at the cinema, on television or online, has not persuaded me that things will improve anytime soon. During discussions with some of my relatives, as I come from a family of opera lovers (including singers) rather than balletomanes, a few (but not the singers) would ask me why I would rail so passionately against, for example, a famous lyric coloratura for her under-supported, flat, twangy and squeaky singing. Why not just ignore her, let her fans cheer and basically live and let live? And I would reply that watching her slip and slide through the music on the world's most legendary stages offended my sense of justice. I was offended for the sake of her more accomplished predecessors, for other lyric coloraturas, though flawed themselves, who could do a better job, and most of all for the composers, whose music was being was being so grotesquely abused.

No one deliberately gives a bad performance, and generally, though Lord knows I flunk sometimes, I prefer to pass over in silence rather than to criticize harshly. (Choreographers, directors and conductors are fair game.) But I can understand detractors. It's not that they're ornery or bear a personal animus against certain dancers. I believe that they love ballet passionately and cannot bear to watch a substandard version of it. For my part, I don't have a horse in this race. Frankly, I don't expect much from ABT anymore. But I think a lot of what we're reading here is a cri de coeur from people who do love ABT and despair for its future.

Link to comment

You're probably correct. I grew so frustrated by the continually falling standards of operatic singing--and constantly complaining about it--that within the past couple of years I essentially gave up on the art form. And what I've seen and heard during my now infrequent encounters with opera, whether live, at the cinema, on television or online, has not persuaded me that things will improve anytime soon. During discussions with some of my relatives, as I come from a family of opera lovers (including singers) rather than balletomanes, a few (but not the singers) would ask me why I would rail so passionately against, for example, a famous lyric coloratura for her under-supported, flat, twangy and squeaky singing. Why not just ignore her, let her fans cheer and basically live and let live? And I would reply that watching her slip and slide through the music on the world's most legendary stages offended my sense of justice. I was offended for the sake of her more accomplished predecessors, for other lyric coloraturas, though flawed themselves, who could do a better job, and most of all for the composers, whose music was being was being so grotesquely abused.

No one deliberately gives a bad performance, and generally, though Lord knows I flunk sometimes, I prefer to pass over in silence rather than to criticize harshly. (Choreographers, directors and conductors are fair game.) But I can understand detractors. It's not that they're ornery or bear a personal animus against certain dancers. I believe that they love ballet passionately and cannot bear to watch a substandard version of it. For my part, I don't have a horse in this race. Frankly, I don't expect much from ABT anymore. But I think a lot of what we're reading here is a cri de coeur from people who do love ABT and despair for its future.

Fifty pages and counting!

Link to comment

There's a fair and frank assessment of an artist's technique and artistry and then there's criticism couched in language that effectively equates technical or artistic limitations with some kind of moral failure. It's the latter I find troubling.

Agreed, and we’ve seen some of that here. And no doubt, as Copeland pretty much told 60 Minutes, she really believes she deserves promotion. She’s caught up in her story, and she’s been affirmed in that story by public opinion. She can’t be expected to have perspective. But technically speaking there can be a kind of moral failure (that’s an unecessarily harsh and unempathetic way of putting it, but I’m drawing a rough correspondence) in demonizing criticism that a dancer’s limitations are being ignored and denied for the sake of affirmative action. “La Danse, Madame, c'est une question morale.”

Link to comment

You're probably correct. I grew so frustrated by the continually falling standards of operatic singing--and constantly complaining about it--that within the past couple of years I essentially gave up on the art form. And what I've seen and heard during my now infrequent encounters with opera, whether live, at the cinema, on television or online, has not persuaded me that things will improve anytime soon. During discussions with some of my relatives, as I come from a family of opera lovers (including singers) rather than balletomanes, a few (but not the singers) would ask me why I would rail so passionately against, for example, a famous lyric coloratura for her under-supported, flat, twangy and squeaky singing. Why not just ignore her, let her fans cheer and basically live and let live? And I would reply that watching her slip and slide through the music on the world's most legendary stages offended my sense of justice. I was offended for the sake of her more accomplished predecessors, for other lyric coloraturas, though flawed themselves, who could do a better job, and most of all for the composers, whose music was being was being so grotesquely abused.

No one deliberately gives a bad performance, and generally, though Lord knows I flunk sometimes, I prefer to pass over in silence rather than to criticize harshly. (Choreographers, directors and conductors are fair game.) But I can understand detractors. It's not that they're ornery or bear a personal animus against certain dancers. I believe that they love ballet passionately and cannot bear to watch a substandard version of it. For my part, I don't have a horse in this race. Frankly, I don't expect much from ABT anymore. But I think a lot of what we're reading here is a cri de coeur from people who do love ABT and despair for its future.

Eloquently put, and I get that.

But I feel strongly that if I'm not willing to either A) repeat my criticism to the dancer's face, or B) sign my full name to the things I write because the criticism is so harsh or skirts into personal attacks, then maybe I shouldn't be writing my comment. Anonymity on the internet allows one to say things they wouldn't say in person and I dislike internet "tough guys."

And on a personal note, my niece is just starting to become serious about ballet, and I can't help but think how horrible it must be for the friends and family of these dancers who have to hear some of these negative things that are said. I'm all for pointing out miscues and for true critiquing, but at times the comments cross the line. These dancers are human beings, and I think people forget that when posting online.

Link to comment

I'm not a fan of Copeland's dancing, but I've probably come across as one in this thread because I too, think some of the criticisms she has received has crossed the line into something way more than unbiased, not malicious criticism. 50 pages in this thread which contain some posters in here even going so far to try and tear her character down. Making statements that she's a liar, ABT dancers "don't like her" and other such nonsense. And I've seen this on other places on the internet too pertaining to Copeland.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...